Myth Busters

[Deezl Smoke]

16 hours ago, spindrift said:

Even Fleetguard punts on that one.

 

 Just a quick reminder in general that I am in no way claiming to be a mechanic or engineer or.......I can only offer personal experience and/or opinions. There. I'm sorry that we have to give these blasted disclaimers all the time anymore, but tizwutiz.

 This is a link to a youtube video of a very well known and respected "certified" Caterpillar mechanic/technician, explaining engine oil and fuel filter pre-filling. It's about 8.6 minutes long. In it Josh discusses his rational behind prefills and no prefills. He even mentions conflicting procedures within the same repair or maintenance. He also mentions as has been mentioned here in this thread prefilling for rebuilds or long term setting etc. It's well worth the watch even if it conflicts with one's line of thought, just to gain further knowledge.

 Here's another video from the same author. It's almost 13 minutes long, but it goes in depth about the "bypass filter" systems that were also passively mentioned here in this thread.

 My chosen career path, farming, and my location, nw Oregon, has surrounded me with all sorts of engineers. From fresh out of skule to long retired. One constant complaint among the engineers is the continuous compromises that have to be made. This is in all aspects of engineering. From structures (civil) to power generation (mechanical and electrical) to computer (software and all that). Pretty much 99.9% of all things engineered is for some sort of sale. Even the USACE put together massive scale projects that are for sale. It is the constant compromises and conflicting designs etc., that drive me (only me, no-one else) to need factory (cya) info confirmed or denied by other sources.

[rickeieio]

8 hours ago, Ray,IN said:

Cummins diesel engines built in the last 20 years have an oil pressure sensor circuit that will not allow an engine start until the ECM sees oil pressure in the system.

 

Thanks for confirming that Ray.  I've suspected it ever since buying the Volvo, with an ISX.  It cranked longer than all my previous diesels before firing.

So, this brings up another question....where is that sensor?  If it's after the filter, the engine will protect itself from starting if a filter was not pre-filled.

[mike5511]

7 hours ago, Deezl Smoke said:

 

 Just a quick reminder in general that I am in no way claiming to be a mechanic or engineer or.......I can only offer personal experience and/or opinions. There. I'm sorry that we have to give these blasted disclaimers all the time anymore, but tizwutiz.

 This is a link to a youtube video of a very well known and respected "certified" Caterpillar mechanic/technician, explaining engine oil and fuel filter pre-filling. It's about 8.6 minutes long. In it Josh discusses his rational behind prefills and no prefills. He even mentions conflicting procedures within the same repair or maintenance. He also mentions as has been mentioned here in this thread prefilling for rebuilds or long term setting etc. It's well worth the watch even if it conflicts with one's line of thought, just to gain further knowledge.

 Here's another video from the same author. It's almost 13 minutes long, but it goes in depth about the "bypass filter" systems that were also passively mentioned here in this thread.

 My chosen career path, farming, and my location, nw Oregon, has surrounded me with all sorts of engineers. From fresh out of skule to long retired. One constant complaint among the engineers is the continuous compromises that have to be made. This is in all aspects of engineering. From structures (civil) to power generation (mechanical and electrical) to computer (software and all that). Pretty much 99.9% of all things engineered is for some sort of sale. Even the USACE put together massive scale projects that are for sale. It is the constant compromises and conflicting designs etc., that drive me (only me, no-one else) to need factory (cya) info confirmed or denied by other sources.

There are several good comments to these videos as well. I've been a subscriber to his channel for a while now. 

[Ray,IN]

11 hours ago, rickeieio said:

Thanks for confirming that Ray.  I've suspected it ever since buying the Volvo, with an ISX.  It cranked longer than all my previous diesels before firing.

So, this brings up another question....where is that sensor?  If it's after the filter, the engine will protect itself from starting if a filter was not pre-filled.

I suspect that function is assigned to the oil pressure sensor.

[rickeieio]

I'd never heard of that guy, but like his delivery and common sense approach.

Now to check my filter supply for that symbol he points out.

[Deezl Smoke]

On 12/7/2023 at 7:40 AM, spindrift said:

Hmmm...myth or hack?  LOL...maybe I just can't stop thinking about power dividers.

https://youtube.com/shorts/hT9j8cIDy9E?si=4aij172hL6fBQdSx

 I found that product I was looking for. It's called the Robson drive.

 

[Ray,IN]

6 hours ago, Deezl Smoke said:

 I found that product I was looking for. It's called the Robson drive.

 

That is a great idea, It's available in Canads, not in the U.S.A. https://www.bmf.ee/products/accessories/robson-drive-system

Edited December 21, 2023 by Ray,IN

[rickeieio]

 A myth that needs to be busted is the nasty rumor that there is no Santa Claus.  A couple of my grandkids have been trying to convince me that he's just a myth,  SAY IT AIN'T SO!!!!!!!

[spindrift]

40 minutes ago, rickeieio said:

 A myth that needs to be busted is the nasty rumor that there is no Santa Claus.  A couple of my grandkids have been trying to convince me that he's just a myth,  SAY IT AIN'T SO!!!!!!!

I can bust that myth quite easily.  A few days ago I was able to capture a picture of Santa Claus with our grandson.

And that's that.

[SuiteSuccess]

5 hours ago, rickeieio said:

 A myth that needs to be busted is the nasty rumor that there is no Santa Claus.  A couple of my grandkids have been trying to convince me that he's just a myth,  SAY IT AIN'T SO!!!!!!!

Rick,

No myth. He exists as surely as you and I.  He’s that wide eyed stare you see in your 5 year old when he’s tossed in his bed all night to see if the offering of milk and cookies has been rewarded with a new bike. He’s as real as the late nights with a screw driver and crescent trying to assemble that play kitchen set. He’s the warm feeling you get when you take a wish from the Angel Tree and see a young child that has nothing get a warm coat and a teddy bear. No myth when you pick up the tab for a young couple struggling with three kids in a restaurant and realize it’s a rare occasion they can afford to go out or the same with an octogenarian couple who’s endured more than we can know. Finally, I know he exists when on this holiday I am lucky enough to have my beautiful wife, daughter, and grandchildren with me. It’s then I realize, I’m Santa Claus, we all are Santa Claus.  Merry Christmas my friend!!

Edited December 24, 2023 by SuiteSuccess

[rickeieio]

2 hours ago, SuiteSuccess said:

Rick,

No myth. He exists as surely as you and I.  He’s that wide eyed stare you see in your 5 year old when he’s tossed in his bed all night to see if the offering of milk and cookies has been rewarded with a new bike. He’s as real as the late nights with a screw driver and crescent trying to assemble that play kitchen set. He’s the warm feeling you get when you take a wish from the Angel Tree and see a young child that has nothing get a warm coat and a teddy bear. No myth when you pick up the tab for a young couple struggling with three kids in a restaurant and realize it’s a rare occasion they can afford to go out or the same with an octogenarian couple who’s endured more than we can know. Finally, I know he exists when on this holiday I am lucky enough to have my beautiful wife, daughter, and grandchildren with me. It’s then I realize, I’m Santa Claus, we all are Santa Claus.  Merry Christmas my friend!!

Dang Carl, yer a lot smarter than we thought.  Thanks.

[sandsys]

The Deaconess at our church listened as her son was told by another kid that there is no Santa Claus and no Easter Bunny. He turned to her and said, "Did you lie to me about God, too?" That's the year I asked our daughter if she wanted to help me be Santa Claus for her dad.

Linda

[rickeieio]

Over the holidays, I've been tinkering on our truck.  One thing scratched off the list is an engine oil change.  Guess what?  All the filters on our engine are cartridge style.  Oil, fuel, and coolant. So, apparently, PACCAR doesn't support the notion of pre-filling a filter on their proprietary MX series engines (built by Cummins in MO.)

Now we need a fresh myth to bash.😁

[lappir]

30 minutes ago, rickeieio said:

Over the holidays, I've been tinkering on our truck.  One thing scratched off the list is an engine oil change.  Guess what?  All the filters on our engine are cartridge style.  Oil, fuel, and coolant. So, apparently, PACCAR doesn't support the notion of pre-filling a filter on their proprietary MX series engines (built by Cummins in MO.)

Now we need a fresh myth to bash.😁

If they are vertical what difference does it make if they are a spin on vs a cartridge? Does the seal only work on the bolt when it's tightened? I thought in the older cars I could fill them, but it's been a long time since the 70's. Inquiring minds....

 

Rod

[spindrift]

31 minutes ago, rickeieio said:

Over the holidays, I've been tinkering on our truck.  One thing scratched off the list is an engine oil change.  Guess what?  All the filters on our engine are cartridge style.  Oil, fuel, and coolant. So, apparently, PACCAR doesn't support the notion of pre-filling a filter on their proprietary MX series engines (built by Cummins in MO.)

Now we need a fresh myth to bash.😁

Yeaaah...what does Paccar know?  😂😉

[rickeieio]

1 hour ago, lappir said:

If they are vertical what difference does it make if they are a spin on vs a cartridge?

Rod,

I believe the oil filter housing drains to the crankcase.  With the cap off, air is allowed in so the oil just drains.  At least that's how all I've done so far work.  But, I'm ready to learn if someone knows different.

Tom,

PACCAR must know more than we.  Rumor is that all new PACCAR trucks have the MX series.  Cummins is no longer an option.

[jenandjon]

17 hours ago, rickeieio said:

Rod,

I believe the oil filter housing drains to the crankcase.  With the cap off, air is allowed in so the oil just drains.  At least that's how all I've done so far work.  But, I'm ready to learn if someone knows different.

Tom,

PACCAR must know more than we.  Rumor is that all new PACCAR trucks have the MX series.  Cummins is no longer an option.

I have heard that rumor. I also heard the rumor that Frieghtliner is no longer having Cummins either. If you want a Cummins, you have to go with an International. 

Edited January 2 by jenandjon

[Steve from SoCal]

I think the Paccar engine was developed in Europe with DAF?    

European manufactures have used cartridge type filters for a long time.    They are less costly and save material by not using a new shell with every change.

The manufactures are more focused on packaging today in general so, the idea that cartridge filters are used fit that goal as well.     

 

[Ray,IN]

55 minutes ago, rickeieio said:

Rod,

I believe the oil filter housing drains to the crankcase.  With the cap off, air is allowed in so the oil just drains.  At least that's how all I've done so far work.  But, I'm ready to learn if someone knows different.

Tom,

PACCAR must know more than we.  Rumor is that all new PACCAR trucks have the MX series.  Cummins is no longer an option.

Paccar must rely on the Cummins feature that will not allow an engine start until the ECM "sees" oil pressure.  I know I do, I never pre-fill an oil filter.

[spindrift]

3 minutes ago, Ray,IN said:

Paccar must rely on the Cummins feature that will not allow an engine start until the ECM "sees" oil pressure.  I know I do, I never pre-fill an oil filter.

Ray,

Can you tell me exactly what feature this is, and where it's located.  I was under the impression that the only Cummins engines with this feature are in the industrial line, not automotive. 

[rickeieio]

10 minutes ago, spindrift said:

Can you tell me exactly what feature this is, and where it's located.

Not having an intimate knowledge of the ecm, it would be logical that since it monitors oil pressure and initiates a shut-down for pressure loss, it might not allow a start until the pressure sending unit says all systems are "GO".  No additional hardware needed.

[Ray,IN]

1 hour ago, rickeieio said:

Not having an intimate knowledge of the ecm, it would be logical that since it monitors oil pressure and initiates a shut-down for pressure loss, it might not allow a start until the pressure sending unit says all systems are "GO".  No additional hardware needed.

I cannot now find my reference link, but I'm sure I read that on the Cummins  insite website. You're right, nothing extra required for this function.

My personal experience is with my ISC 8.3. Always before the engine would start almost immediately when  the key was turned. Back in 2020 We were enroute to Mayo Clinic and had engine problems that required my MH be towed to Cummins Rock Island. The ECM was so old their computers could not connect and read information, so they removed the ECM and took it to their computer room where they had an old computer that could connect

After all that they wiped my ECM clean and installed the current programming. From then on my engine will not start for about 10 seconds or more after the key is turned, and the oil pressure gauge immediately jumps to 80 PSI.

[Darryl&Rita]

3 hours ago, spindrift said:

Ray,

Can you tell me exactly what feature this is, and where it's located.  I was under the impression that the only Cummins engines with this feature are in the industrial line, not automotive. 

Almost any engine series with an ECM strapped to it. ISB, ISC, M11, N14 all come to mind.

[rickeieio]

4 hours ago, Steve from SoCal said:

think the Paccar engine was developed in Europe with DAF? 

A bit of digging reveals that DAF is a wholly owned subsidiary of PACCAR.

Also, in T-680 trucks, the MX-13 is the standard engine, and the MX-11 is an option.  That's it.  No Cummins, Detroit, etc.

[Deezl Smoke]

17 hours ago, Ray,IN said:

I cannot now find my reference link, but I'm sure I read that on the Cummins  insite website. You're right, nothing extra required for this function.

My personal experience is with my ISC 8.3. Always before the engine would start almost immediately when  the key was turned. Back in 2020 We were enroute to Mayo Clinic and had engine problems that required my MH be towed to Cummins Rock Island. The ECM was so old their computers could not connect and read information, so they removed the ECM and took it to their computer room where they had an old computer that could connect

After all that they wiped my ECM clean and installed the current programming. From then on my engine will not start for about 10 seconds or more after the key is turned, and the oil pressure gauge immediately jumps to 80 PSI.

 

 10 seconds is way too long. So when you turn the key to the on position, do you let the system diagnostics run through it's routine before turning to the start position?

 For example, in the farm prostar/maxxfarce, and my Pete Cummins X15, I turn the key to the on position and listen for all of the clicking and air purges to stop before turning the start position. This can take up to about 4 seconds. Then, turn to start and either engine will fire within about 3-4 revolutions.