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Old Goat's corner. He's at it again


phoenix2013

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Woe unto those, that try to short-cut, the processes proclaimed by the mighty Building Permit Office!

 I'm on the edge of my chair, awaiting the juicy details.  😉

Edited by DanZemke
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I doubt Henry would try to short-cut the codes.

Having spent many years on our county's Planning and Zoning board, several as president, I can assure you that in most jurisdictions, the office is there to guide you through a process and keep you from making costly mistakes.  That said, all  jurisdictions are not created equal, and some people trying to take short cuts just make it worse for themselves and others.

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1 hour ago, rickeieio said:

I doubt Henry would try to short-cut the codes.

Having spent many years on our county's Planning and Zoning board, several as president, I can assure you that in most jurisdictions, the office is there to guide you through a process and keep you from making costly mistakes.  That said, all  jurisdictions are not created equal, and some people trying to take short cuts just make it worse for themselves and others.

Alas, you are a wise sage and a public servant. Myself, I also spent decades on various boards, wife on council boards. Ignorance of the rules was not going to fly. To make matters worse, one is also known to the officialdom having taking out various permits for, hurricane windows, doors, driveway widening, etc. Why the sudden weakness of the mind? Ah, I had a "partner" in that crime. More on that later, but first why the need for it in the first place?🙄

As my friends know, the ET business had a commercial space at on time. In the process of unwinding it it was split between 10 x 20 commercial storage bin and the 2 1/2 car garage (cars were "evicted" from the garage during that phase). Further unwinding deposited the ET business into the capable hands of Young's Welding. More unwinding welcomed wife's convertible in the garage, Curiously the 10 x 20 storage remained full, FOR YEARS, at $175 (then more) per month. Now and then I would visit the storage to re-acquaint myself with the "treasures", but those visits did not produce in a timely fashion the realization, "hey moron, can you get $175 bucks if you sold everything in here"? The answer was, "yeah, more, but not much".

The second realization was the purchase of the brand new Pacifica, after killing the last minivan transporting the ET business in it to Kansas. GVW 6,500 lbs, I have a CAT scale ticket to prove it. I haven't bought a brand new vehicle in decades, this purchase was reasoned to be the last automobile to last till depends days and loss of license with loss of sensibilities. Such longevity for a car in Florida sun is impossible unless the car is garaged. Hence another self question, "hey moron, can you get $175 bucks for the stuff hanging around the garage"? Since the answer was "definitely yes", this generated an action item, "buy or build a shed".

Those of you who know the Old Goat probably surmised by now that he did explore the buy option (about $6 grands, fully permitted delivered and set up), but he rejected it. Why? Where's the fun in doing JUST THAT! He can do it himself, better, cheaper and have fun in the process. So where do we stand as of now? We have already crossed the $6 grands line and it is not yet fully finished, nor permitted, but the adventure continues and it's quite humorous, I shall share it with you. Quick peek, yes progress was achieved.

kJXoSYHl.jpg

   

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8 hours ago, rickeieio said:

So, Henry, you're in Florida.  Why all the snow around the area in front of the door?

Rick, 

 

Henry has the pleasure of the white sand to make him feel more at home in Florida following all those winters in New Hampshire. It's still tough to shovel when the winds drift it. 

 

Rod

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Some of you have been on this forum long enough to remember when Henry wrote one of his lengthy ramblings about how, if you want to keep things fresh, you refrigerate them.  Then he moves from the frozen tundra to Florida.

Maybe someday, if I grow up, I'll understand.....😁

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Like the original sin those are the memories one wishes to wipe out from one's memory.

Poor Kechup waiting patiently to escape to Florida.

huc7dPBl.jpg

Alas the sand, there is an associated tale. Upon moving to Florida wife was concerned🤫, hurricanes, flooding, etc., she likes to be prepared. Husband not so much, but who is he to question a proactive wife. Wife purchased 17KW whole house generator (on wheels about 3-400 pounds) and a pallet of sand bags. Husband was arranging the garage for ET production and fashioned a spot for the generator,

mvmPObXl.jpg

but the pallet of sandbags, moving it and storing it became a subject of bitter discussions. Husband argued that a chance of ingress of flood water into domicile, regardless of what Al Gore says about the rising seas, is zero. Besides, the house, per Florida recent codes is built on an elevated mound 5 feet above the flood plain. Regardless, the sand was moved eventually to the 10 x 20 storage facility where it stayed for years. Upon abandoning the 10 x 20 storage the sand returned. Husband in anger ripped the bags open and deposited the sand into the low spots around the shed foundation visible in the picture. There!

You will see the elements of the above picture in the new shed. Ah, the generator? In a decade, through number of passing hurricanes it was never started in anger to power the Old Goat's domicile. The starting battery went dead and needed to be replaced. The Old Goat banned the generator to a storage bin outside of the house. NOT IN THE SHED!

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19 hours ago, rickeieio said:

I doubt Henry would try to short-cut the codes.

So do I.  But getting around the codes wasn't my intended point.

Henry's originating post seemed to be a teaser, about big-city bureaucracy.  I was offering sympathy, if he was having to jump through bureaucratic hoops, like I have.  

My personal short story: I visited my town's building permit office a few years ago seeking a permit to extend my small upstairs bathroom, into my large master bedroom. I visited the building department and was told that I couldn't get a permit until I provided a new land survey map.  The map they had was 8.5" x 11", dated 1953.  The new map would cost me a bit over $1,000.  I was irritated because the new map appeared to benefit my Town. Seems like it should have been a shared expense.

A Health department inspector joined the discussion and informed me that a new property map required a new health department inspection. I exploded! The building and health inspectors argued.  We were all within 4 feet of each other.  The health inspector said to the building inspector "you guys are getting your inspection fees and we need ours too".

I grudgingly paid the building permit and moved on with my life.

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2 hours ago, DanZemke said:

So do I.  But getting around the codes wasn't my intended point.

Henry's originating post seemed to be a teaser, about big-city bureaucracy.  I was offering sympathy, if he was having to jump through bureaucratic hoops, like I have.  

My personal short story: I visited my town's building permit office a few years ago seeking a permit to extend my small upstairs bathroom, into my large master bedroom. I visited the building department and was told that I couldn't get a permit until I provided a new land survey map.  The map they had was 8.5" x 11", dated 1953.  The new map would cost me a bit over $1,000.  I was irritated because the new map appeared to benefit my Town. Seems like it should have been a shared expense.

A Health department inspector joined the discussion and informed me that a new property map required a new health department inspection. I exploded! The building and health inspectors argued.  We were all within 4 feet of each other.  The health inspector said to the building inspector "you guys are getting your inspection fees and we need ours too".

I grudgingly paid the building permit and moved on with my life.

On point, I learn what the codes are, then build to codes or beyond. My story was somewhat similar, except the amount for an official engineering drawing (required) was "only" $800. When it comes to the interpersonal intercourse the experience was rather pleasant. Why was it and is?

I mentioned early that I have taken out permits before and had my work inspected and passed. City of Port St. Lucie is one of the ten fastest growing cities in Florida if not in the nation, it doubled in population from 100,000 people to 230,000 people in the last twenty years. Plans are for a population of 450,000 by 2050. The city's Building Department is IAS accredited. Only 25 are such accredited nation wide and 4 in Florida. Play by the rules and the permitting process is smooth as silk, quick, inexpensive and professional. Request an inspection the night before (on line) and the inspector is there next day, usually in the morning. Homeowners can do their own work, just take out a different style permit application, have them notarize it (free) and off you go. But you get the warning, you are now the "contractor", know the codes and build to codes. Friday night I requested and electrical inspection for my two outlets and a light. Inspector was here 8:30 AM this morning. He passed the rough but wouldn't do the final until I do one small thing (GFI breaker).

Since I know all this, how come I got crossed with the city building department. The story of that "sin and punishment" will be explored in subsequent chapters. Right now I need to continue with the shed work to make ready for the next three inspections on the list. 

Edited by phoenix2013
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So what happened?

The Old Goat was indeed on a straight and narrow, albeit at a retirement speed, it was going to take weeks if not months. The Goat owns a "legal" $5,000 worth copy of Solid Works which he employed to come up with a magnificent set of of construction drawings (40 pages) for the shed. Total overkill,  Solid Works dimensioned the 2 x 4s to ten thousands of an inch accuracy. And as you can see the Goat actually took out and filled out a permit application to go with the plans.

8StJz1hl.jpg

Here's what happened, Mark Shelley happened.

Mark and I go back twenty years to the beginning of this HDT movement, ET hitch, Jackalopee, etc., etc. 

oYiluK9l.jpg

We've been fast friends over all this time, he's brilliant, quirky, real diamond in the rough, I love the guy, he also happens to be a hell of a builder. He's also in the process of becoming serious Florida snowbird, which means he's here, in the Sunshine State. He looked over my plans, nodded sagely, suggested changes here and there and said. "You got the lumber, right?" "Yeah, it's in the 10 x 20 storage". "I'm here, why don't we frame it over the weekend". I said, "but Mark, the permit, the permit". "I see you got application, run down there Monday and get it, in the meantime lets frame it". Indeed by the end of the weekend we were there.

k2b2g9sl.jpg

Monday morning I ran to the City Hall with my plans and the application and got asked, "very nice, are you a certified architect?" "Well no, I'm an engineer, good with Solid Works and I know construction". "Sorry, you have get these approved by a Florida licensed architect". Crap, what do I do now, I see bunch of them in Port St. Lucie approving multimillion dollar  developments. While I am pondering, this gets hung on my doorknob.

22tEhhIl.jpg

I called Mr. Figur right away to ask what my options were and my dilemma. His answer, "you have one, get an architect". "Any suggestion?" I asked. Here a bit of a "dance" occurred", see that IAS accreditation logo, one of only 25 in the nation, part of it has to do with the legendary corruption within municipalities and building departments and forbids any kind of hanky pinky. After a bit on hesitation he said, "I can't recommend an architects but on many small projects like this one I have seen a name of XXXX XXXXX". Hint taken, off I went to see XXXX XXXXX. It gets better, but along the way I did get court summons.

 

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This sounds familiar.... We call them artichokes....

An architect is flying in a hot air balloon and realizes he is lost. He reduces his height and spots a man down below. He lowers the balloon further and shouts: “Excuse me, can you tell me where I am?”

The man below says: “Yes, you’re in a hot air balloon, you are hovering at approximately 30 feet, and you are between 40 – 41 degrees N. latitude, and between 58-59 degrees W. longitude.”.

“You must be an engineer,” says the balloonist.

“I am,” replies the man. “How did you know.”

“Well,” says the balloonist, “everything you have told me is technically correct, but it’s no use to anyone.”

The man below says: “You must be an architect”.

“I am,” replies the balloonist, “but how did you know?”

“Well,” says the man, “you don’t know where you are, or where you’re going, but you expect me to be able to help. You’re in the same position you were before we met, but now it’s my fault.”

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The saga continues😬

The violation notice was issued at the end of April. The same week the Goat obtained the services of an architect, who would generate E size drawings carrying the necessary stamps of authority. The fee would be $800. My superb set of 40 drawings were not suitable but would be used as a "reference" to create the two E size drawings. The flies in the ointment that emerged were: (1) The office was so busy minimum of 30 to 60 day were going to go by before he could get to "those drawings". (2) I was going to New Hampshire for June, July, August so it didn't matter but it did matter. (3) When cited you have 30 days to fix it or you get summons to SEE THE JUDGE!

I spoke with Mr. Figur, explained the situation, while the architect produced a document that they were hired for the project but needed at least 30-60 day. Mr. Figur produced a letter "for the file" extending the "fix it date" by 120 days, perfect. Off I went to New Hampshire.

Upon return and a visit to the architect, I discovered nothing was done on my plans. This was followed for several weeks with more and more urgent visits, until the plans were produced. Armed with those, application and $125 fee, I went to the city hall. Everything is good, you'll have the permit tomorrow $250 please. "But the $125, it says here". "Correct, there a 100% upcharge for a violation of the rules".

Next day I got the permit and a "list of 11 inspections" associated with this permit.  11 inspections, it's a friggn' shed.

fKtewCll.jpg

I figured I need to visit the building department and speak with the examiners and get the skinny on the requirements and the codes for each of those inspections. They have that service for the contractors and home owners. In the meantime  I GOT THIS!

BIlYHjel.jpg

It seems that with all the screwing around we went past the 120 day grace period and the judge noticed. I have a date with the judge.

Off I went to the building department with the permit, plans, inspections list and a violation notice. The inspector I was talking to was the one who actually inspected the drawings and issued the permit. He said "I have never approved a shed like this, put an air conditioner in it and I'm moving in". While discussing various aspect if the inspections I mentioned, "I got the permit but I still have a date with a judge". Two ladies were at the next counter, one sitting one standing. The one standing said, "can I see this, I'm the judge". She went away with the permit and the Notice of Violation, she came back and pointed out the note she wrote in at the top of the violation 4-7-2023. She gave me a six month grace period to finish the friggn' shed or I will have to see her. Time's running out I got month and half.

 

 

 

 

Edited by phoenix2013
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1 hour ago, phoenix2013 said:

I got month and half.

AND you framed it on a weekend.  The system is the problem unto itself.  While it has value at times, it totally inhibits progress in a TIMELY fashion, due to its inefficiencies, all the while slowing down the machine it is authorized to manage and producing more revenue because of the rules, which it is impossible to know all of them.

God help us.

Marcel

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A cousin lived in Ft. Myers Beach, she said the new codes are written so the building would withstand a hurricane.

Well, it's all over the news what happened to Ft. Myers Beach area.

 

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On 2/19/2023 at 7:51 PM, Ray,IN said:

A cousin lived in Ft. Myers Beach, she said the new codes are written so the building would withstand a hurricane.

Well, it's all over the news what happened to Ft. Myers Beach area.

Just to unveil a bit of the curtain of my existence In Ports St. Lucie. We were curious about this City years before we moved here. Being part of the governing "elites" up north we were curious how a big municipality like this runs. This city offers City University once or twice a year, 12 week course where you get acquainted with this City's "elites" and the details of it's operations. They tried to recruit us, afterward, but we resisted, to a point. Yes, I know the Mayor, the Town Manager, the  councilors, the Chief of Polices and the BUILDING BEPARTMENT DIRECTOR, personally. There was absolutely no excuse for screwing around with the permit.

My experience, up north, was that every, hamlet, town, city has it's own building codes and ordinances. Florida did too until hurricane Andrew 30 years ago.

https://www.usglassmag.com/2022/08/30-years-later-hurricane-andrew-redesigned-modern-building-codes/  

Now there is a single code (50 massive books) state wide covering everything from outhouses, to streets, interstates, sheds, houses to skyscrapers. It was updated in 2015. As the Building Department Director explained to me, his inspectors are good but he can't expect them to know the 50 tomes, but he expects them to know which book to access and find the information they lack. Having an architect produce drawings "beforehand" speed things up for the same reason.

Having a State Code was forced upon Florida by insurance companies which spent billions after Andrew. There was a massive amount of shoddy construction prior to that and prior to 2015. So with every hurricane more of the "leftover stuff" gets demolished and rebuilt to code afterwards.

Per code the roof that I put on the shed is 5/8 plywood. Rafters, I though 24" on center,  ah, ah 16" on center, nailing into rafters, every 6 inches. The main roof on the house was being redone (almost 20 years old). The inspector wanted to see the original plywood and it was re-nailed to 6" on center. I had them do the shed roof also while they were here for the house roof.

Edited by phoenix2013
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Obtained my Florida State Certified Contractors License in 1990 and my business is still actively contracting in Florida.

Hurricane Andrew exposed a lot of issues, lack of codes, lack of enforcement, lack of qualified contractors, etc.

After Andrew, municipalities started enacting and adopting codes and regulations that they thought best. Soon a hodgepodge of codes were in place, what you did to meet code in one city wasn’t sufficient in another. Municipalities, building officials, inspectors, could just “make up” what ever standard, code, regulation etc. that they wanted to with no real oversight or conformality with other municipalities.

The Florida legislation was also lobbied heavily by the construction industry. They got involved and Florida adopted the unified state building code that all municipalities must adopt. The municipalities can’t add, alter or delete “codes” rather they have to go through a process to have the legislature change, alter, etc. the Florida building code.  (Codes such as the wind load zones make sense that costal municipalities have stricter construction standards than inland for example.)

As a contractor this made designing and permitting much more concise, and not subject to the whim of a local building official or inspector who wanted something other than what was in the current code.

As a contractor, it is our company’s responsibility to ensure we know and understand the codes for the work we are contracted to perform. As an owner builder, the responsibility falls upon that individual. 

We have pulled permits in over 40 municipalities , mostly in south Florida. Each has their own building departments, plan review, inspectors or contracted inspectors, admin, etc. Some take months to get through the process and issue the permits, others days- a lot depends on the scope of the work and size of the municipality . But basically the process is to show them that you know the codes and how to perform the work, the better you can demonstrate that in the application and documents the easier it is to obtain the permit

Things have changed again since covid, with more and more now going to an online application and submitial process, online scheduling for inspections and results. In some cases this has sped up the process, in others it just gives them additional layers of BS to heap on that we must wade through.

Rather than permitting, I refer to them as the work prevention department.... Back when everything was done in person over the counter i would start by telling them my goal was to give them money today, didnt care how much as the client would be paying for it, but by them accepting money that day generally meant we could go to work the next.

Lastly, the difference between God and a building inspector..... God knows he isnt a building inspector

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My cousin said obtaining a building/ renovation permit in FMB was a real pain. He was going to replace a window and a door. He finally got a permit, then had to go to Home Depot and select a window and door from the "approved" list of each. Before he could install them he had to wait for the inspector to come and verify they were on his "approved" list. Then he installed them and had to wait for an inspector to come and approve the installations. Took him a month to finish the project as a result.

Talked to him a month ago, he said their house is somewhere in a FL landfill now.

Edited by Ray,IN

 

2000 Winnebago Ultimate Freedom USQ40JD, ISC 8.3 Cummins 350, Spartan MM Chassis. USA IN 1SG retired;Good Sam Life member,FMCA ." And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you--ask what you can do for your country.  John F. Kennedy 20 Jan 1961

 

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Hate to say around here is all about politics.  Local individuals want to change a feature to a home in a small town with inspectors, they make the calls, get the approvals that take FOREVER as to reviews, validations, etc., then do their own work only to have to 'Correct' a number of mostly Cosmetic concerns to reach final sign off.  Contractors licensed thru that same town get Carte Blanche and a few get a blind eye for really crappy work.  Signed off regardless end result where the individual's cosmetic issues look like master repairs in comparison.  Pretty sad.

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Hurricane research, product testing and approval is a big business in Florida with facilities all over the state. This one is in Miami at the Florida International University.

QeYbNODl.jpg

They can generate winds up to category four hurricane (up to 160 mph). They have places where they can simulate category five (200+ mph). The video below shows what and how they test things at FIU

 

The inspector did not like some of my hurricane proofing on "the shed", which I am redoing today for re-inspection Monday. Will explain later.

 

 

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If you guys watched the video you've seen how structures, particularly sheds, can come apart even with hurricane straps. So what needed "improvement" upon inspection of my shed. First the door frame. He wanted the sill plate strapped to the frame,

joQ5XtIl.jpg

and then again the 2 x 4s strapped together across the header.

UoosBILl.jpg

He wants every wall stud tied to the sill plate across the bottom plate, about 20 of them.

IkqTZKOl.jpg

He was not happy with hurricane tie downs I used on the rafters, said roof can "depart" with those. He liked what I found in the Simpson catalog. These pickup the rafter, pick up the top double plate and pickup the top of the stud.

n2nrjpgl.jpg

I suggested replacing few of the other ones here and there. Nope, all 22 have to be replaced. 

There is another inspection being done tomorrow, external vapor barrier, to make sure it's done right with two layers of #15 felt. OK, who can tell why this was necessary.

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