No Vacancy

[Zulu]

On 2/28/2022 at 11:17 AM, Barbaraok said:

This is why we gave up on state parks.

You showed them!

 

On 2/28/2022 at 11:17 AM, Barbaraok said:

We could usually get a Sunday-Thursday night reservation of some sort a week or two out, but weekends, no.    

A "week or two" isn't enough. That's why you never booked a weekend.

We started camping in 2004 and found that to get weekends or "prime" state campground sites required booking the max amount of time in advance . . . and then I had to click on the BOOK NOW button continuously as others were doing the same thing.

 

On 2/28/2022 at 11:17 AM, Barbaraok said:

And the few times we did get the weekend, we would find there would be loads of empty sites as people just didn't show up. 

So? They paid for it. The park was paid.

You are not entitled to a camp site.

[mptjelgin]

14 minutes ago, Zulu said:

So? They paid for it. The park was paid.

Or not. To use Texas State Parks as an example. You can book an entire two-week say, wait until 5 days before the start date and then cancel, paying only one nights camping fee or $10, whichever is less.  So for $10, you can lock up a site for months and then change your mind. Within that time, many folks who have been trying to book sites will have been blocked and  gone elsewhere, or given up. Some may keep trying hoping for a cancellation, but many can't string it along until the last minute.

So perhaps the state only gets $10, instead of the fees that someone else would have paid. 

[Vladimir]

1 hour ago, Zulu said:

FIFO ensures Locals get camp sites. State/national campgrounds are tuned into city parks.

BTW, the way to game the "you must show up" rule is to just park your boat/camper on site before the weekend, leave, and then come back for Sat/Sun.

Physical presence doesn't work either.

The Forest Service did not have the authority to close roads to the National Forests until the folks from Seattle could arrive to their "rightful" place in line.  BUT, rural folks cannot do the same for urban amenities!!

No parking your boat/camper or TENT does NOT work.  You have to be there physically present, otherwise your ticketed and towed.

BTW...the locals did discover through the 90's that they could camp on NF managed land throughout the entire summer and drive to work everyday.  That led to the Forest Service writing down license plates and once the 23 days were done....a ticket got written.  AND that was the end of camping on NF managed land for the rest of the year!!

It did help when a FS employee was kidnapped and raped on a Oregon forest.  They found the guy with a license plate match records of dispersed camping sites.

The real message is that for years, and years the public was fair and honest and the Forest Service management was minimal.  

These days we have an "urban, me first" value system for many of our users on public lands.  

AND with that attitude comes regulations and tickets.

 

 

[2gypsies]

2 hours ago, mptjelgin said:

We have stayed in state parks in most states, and cannot recall a single state that required arrival by 6:00 pm or making arrangements for "late arrival".  Every one of them held the site through the first reserved night, and then released it the next day if unoccupied. I wonder if you weren't getting sites the night after the first vacant night had passed.  

That's been our experience, also.  We never encountered "arrival by 6pm".  Also, the parks we volunteered didn't have that stipulation either.

[sandsys]

3 hours ago, Kirk W said:

How about sharing what states that has happened in?

I wish my memory was that good. I'm pretty sure it happened in Florida. I remember liking the Missouri state parks but I do not know if that was the reason. I just remember feeling grateful each time it happened. I suppose I could try reading my entire blog to see if I listed that detail but, if you really want to know, you could do that yourself.

Linda

[Dutch_12078]

14 minutes ago, sandsys said:

I wish my memory was that good. I'm pretty sure it happened in Florida. I remember liking the Missouri state parks but I do not know if that was the reason. I just remember feeling grateful each time it happened. I suppose I could try reading my entire blog to see if I listed that detail but, if you really want to know, you could do that yourself.

Linda

I quoted the Florida SP no-show policy earlier, but basically they hold the site for the first night until checkout time the following day. They do ask that you call before closing time for the gate code for gated parks if you'll be arriving late.

[Zulu]

2 hours ago, mptjelgin said:

To use Texas State Parks as an example. You can book an entire two-week say, wait until 5 days before the start date and then cancel, paying only one nights camping fee or $10, whichever is less.  So for $10, you can lock up a site for months and then change your mind. Within that time, many folks who have been trying to book sites will have been blocked and  gone elsewhere, or given up. Some may keep trying hoping for a cancellation, but many can't string it along until the last minute . . .

 . . . and some may show up at the last minute and find a campsite.

Unless you have some actual data, this is just a SWAG.

[Kirk W]

2 hours ago, sandsys said:

I remember liking the Missouri state parks but I do not know if that was the reason.

Per the MO state park website, you have 24 hours to claim a reserved site. Check the state park website. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Kirk W

[sandsys]

3 hours ago, Dutch_12078 said:

I quoted the Florida SP no-show policy earlier, but basically they hold the site for the first night until checkout time the following day. They do ask that you call before closing time for the gate code for gated parks if you'll be arriving late.

59 minutes ago, Kirk W said:

Per the MO state park website, you have 24 hours to claim a reserved site. Check the state park website. 

That may be the current policy but it was probably 2008-10 that we were there. I didn't promise that policy had not changed in the intervening years; I simply shared our experience with the idea that it might be worth checking it out now.

Linda

[Danfreda1]

The 24 hour to claim your site in mo state parks was the same in 2009. We camped in those state parks a lot. 

[bigjim]

If memory serves when I was at the Tx SP you had until a certain time the next day. Could have been as late as 2pm or as early as 11am. You lost 1 day/night fee. That was when people would be lined up to claim a forfeited site.  We did have people make a reservation that would show up in the night or rarely early the next day.

If you were at the desk and knew a specific site you wanted we could look up to see if it was available and you could claim it.  If you wanted to scout around you were not supposed to occupy a site until you came back to make sure it was open. If they occupied one that someone had paid for but not set up yet even just from leaving the office it could create a problem and sometimes even had to get a Ranger out to force a move.  People often tried to reserve specific sites but at least at that time we did not do that. We tried to steer people to appropriate size sites but could not deny anyone access to an available site if they wanted it.

Edited March 2, 2022 by bigjim

[Barbaraok]

We also decided against state parks because most of them car extra each day for a car you pull behind a motorhome unless you have an annual pass for that state.  Use to be state parks were much cheaper than private ones, not anymore.  Which is why we have made extensive use of membership parks, which are all over the PNW.   

[Kirk W]

3 hours ago, Barbaraok said:

We also decided against state parks because most of them car extra each day for a car you pull behind a motorhome unless you have an annual pass for that state.

I have griped about that at more than one state park. When we were hosts in a KS park, it was part of my job to sell permits to those who were due to renew but I told the park manager that as one who towed a car behind my motorhome, I would not enforce the permits for towed cars since the truck and trailer are both covered with one permit. Not all states do that but far too many do. 

Also, anyone old enough to have the America the Beautiful, Senior Card can stay at COE and other federal parks for far less even if a towed RV. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Kirk W

[Barbaraok]

COE parks are ones we love.  Unfortunately in the west a lot of them were sold to the various states for $1 or more.   But there are some and we try to use them when in that area.

[Dutch_12078]

6 hours ago, Barbaraok said:

We also decided against state parks because most of them car extra each day for a car you pull behind a motorhome unless you have an annual pass for that state.  Use to be state parks were much cheaper than private ones, not anymore.  Which is why we have made extensive use of membership parks, which are all over the PNW.   

None of the state parks we regularly visit in the east charge a daily car fee for campers. The closest to it would be Wellsley Island State Park in upstate NY where access requires paying a toll for the Thousand Islands International Bridge. Georgia charges a one time flat car pass fee, but it's good for the duration of your stay. Our annual average rate for state and national park visits is in the $25-$30 range. I just booked a 14 day stay at Florida's Gold Head Branch State Park for next February at $20.50/day. Next week we'll be at a NPS park in the Big Cypress National Preserve for $15/day with our National Access Pass. You won't find prices anywhere close to that at private parks in Florida during the peak winter season.

[bruce t]

Cherry Creek SP in Denver lost us some years back when they 'demanded' we pay an extra fee for our toad while trailers and 5th wheels only paid one fee. When we tried to debate the issue they asked us to pack up and leave.

On the thread itself, it's a case of supply and demand. Since covid the RV industry has going crazy with thousands of new RVs hitting the road. So name me a new RV park since covid started. More RVs and the same number of sites simply doesn't work out. And for new investors there needs to be a return on their money. Public or private. So there are only 2 options for a return on the investment. Charge more per site until there is consumer resistance. Or develop new parks and charge like heck to recoup the investment. Either way expect to pay more $$$$$ for the pleasure of sleeping in your own bed.

Australia is no different with the covid led RV boom. Not a new park in the country. In fact sites have disappeared for cabins. But what has happened is more folks have gone bush. Almost every RV now is covered in solar panels. Lithium batteries are the norm. Bush camping in free or low cost sites is the norm. Hundreds of towns now offer free or low cost camping with few, if any, facilities. Showgrounds/state fair ground have opened up for low cost low facility camping. Australia has about 500 RV Friendly towns that offer free or low cost camping. That's the equivalent of 7500 towns in the USA!!!

The answer???? Well my nickles worth would be to look hard at BLM or forestry land. Approach towns for limited facility, limited time parking. I developed the RV Friendly Town scheme in Australia. It can be done in the USA. It just takes a bit of hard work. Escapes is the ideal organization to promote such a scheme. In fact I offered them the information some years back. Yes there will be blow back from RV parks. But small towns have many businesses crying out for customers. Not just the RV parks but food outlets. Repair facilities etc etc etc. There has to be some lobbying of the local politicians as well. There are answers. Grumbling about shortage of sites doesn't fix the problem.

 

 

 

[trailertraveler]

8 hours ago, bruce t said:

So name me a new RV park since covid started.

There are a few. Not sure how many are open yet. One is in Columbia, SC. Jimmy Buffet is opening Margaritaville RV Parks. Love's is partnering with KOA to open campgrounds at some of its Travel Plazas. They also have added RV parking spaces with water and electric at 9 of their travel plazas. There is a relatively new campground in Webster, FL. Since the start of the pandemic, we have been to several parks that are adding additional spaces. For example, the Thousand Trails Park in Orlando is adding a new loop. Here is a link to an article about new and expanding RV Parks in Florida.

This is from a February 2021 FMCA article: 

Quote

The National Association of RV Parks and Campgrounds estimates that more than 53,000 new RV sites will be built across the United States this year. The estimate was based on a survey of 516 campground and RV park operators.

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by trailertraveler

[kb0zke]

We had no troubles last summer on our lengthy journey from WY to Nebraska to Texas and back to Wyoming. Looking forward to what will happen this year when we finally get to head out.

One of our peeves when hosting at State parks was the people who came in after the fee booth was closed (often fairly late) and left very early. Nothing left in the "iron ranger" either. They just found an empty site, stayed the night, and left the next day. I guess they figured that the electricity and water they used didn't cost anything.

[2gypsies]

1 hour ago, kb0zke said:

One of our peeves when hosting at State parks was the people who came in after the fee booth was closed (often fairly late) and left very early. Nothing left in the "iron ranger" either. They just found an empty site, stayed the night, and left the next day. I guess they figured that the electricity and water they used didn't cost anything.

At the park we were volunteering, the rangers patrolled a couple times a night and latecomers/moochers had their license recorded and were also normally approached super early morning.  They were sent a citation to pay up if they snuck out.

[TXiceman]

While hosting in Texas state parks, we always had issues with the folks that arrive late and depart early.  We tried to make an early pass through our area as well as a late pass and leave pay reminders with their license plate circled on the form.  Some of the parks kept track of them and would go after the repeat offenders.

The other issue was "squatters".  They came into the park on Sunday after lunch and would move into an empty campsite after paying the daily use fee....not the camping fee.  Most moved on, but a few had to have the ranger come and talk to them.  Some of these clods were frequent offenders.  Saw one that the ranger escorted him out of the park, and he put them on the "blacklist".

Ken

 

[Kirk W]

6 hours ago, kb0zke said:

One of our peeves when hosting at State parks was the people who came in after the fee booth was closed (often fairly late) and left very early.

Scofflaws have always been around and they likely always will be. There are even a few members of Escapees who do that sort of thing. We had it happen more than once at Black Rock Canyon campground which is part of Joshua Tree NP but is outside of the park gates. In Kansas we had a camper not only sneak in and leave early but they also left the site trashed, but I had been out early so had the license plate number. Called the park LE and he then radioed somewhere, and about an hour or so later the people returned with a highway patrol care escort. Under supervision of the park LE they cleaned up the site until it was spotless, spending a couple of hours, then once they paid for the night and a park entrance fee, they were allowed leave. Of course that put them back on the road from the park at about 11 am.  I don't know if that was standard operation, but I'd bet they never tried to cheat a KS park again. 

[trailertraveler]

8 hours ago, kb0zke said:

One of our peeves when hosting at State parks was the people who came in after the fee booth was closed (often fairly late) and left very early. Nothing left in the "iron ranger" either. They just found an empty site, stayed the night, and left the next day. I guess they figured that the electricity and water they used didn't cost anything.

I have noticed similar behavior even at private parks that do not have a gate. Another fairly common practice I have observed is to pull into a campsite, hookup and dump and then leave without registering or use the dump station without paying. I remember one time an RVer went on a rant because the dump station sewer cover was locked. A Casino in New Mexico had a significant enough problem that they installed a system that requires an access code or credit card payment to unlock the dump station sewer connection.

1 hour ago, Kirk W said:

Scofflaws have always been around and they likely always will be. There are even a few members of Escapees who do that sort of thing.

Another fairly common practice has been to overstay the day limit on public lands open to dispersed vehicle camping. This became a serious issue a few years ago on the Coccinino National Forest with fairly large numbers of RVers moving from one area of the Forest to another. The Forest Service tried to use an existing regulation prohibiting living in a National Forest originally intended to prevent homesteaders from building cabins in remote areas to address the issue. One of the prime advocates for this practice posted several times on this forum and created significant fears that if one did not have a stick and brick home somewhere that you could be cited. One of the members of this forum even met with Forest Service personnel in the Washington Headquarters Office.

[Dutch_12078]

5 hours ago, TXiceman said:

While hosting in Texas state parks, we always had issues with the folks that arrive late and depart early. 

Over the years we've been visiting state and national parks in Florida each winter, we've noticed each year that more parks have added keypad controlled gates that close sometimes as early as 5 o'clock. I'm sure freeloaders were part of the reasoning that went into the gate installation decisions.

[Jinx & Wayne]

9 hours ago, Dutch_12078 said:

I'm sure freeloaders were part of the reasoning that went into the gate installation decisions.

Since they are taking public resources that we pay for with tax dollars, I think thieves describes them than freeloaders.

Wayne & Jinx
2017 F-350 diesel, dually
2006 Carriage Carri-Lite 36KSQ

[Dutch_12078]

11 hours ago, Jinx & Wayne said:

Since they are taking public resources that we pay for with tax dollars, I think thieves describes them than freeloaders.

Wayne & Jinx
2017 F-350 diesel, dually
2006 Carriage Carri-Lite 36KSQ

I can agree with that...