Wire type

[dennisvr]

First off I will say that this is not HDT related, BUT with all the electrical gurus here I will ask for info here.  On second thought it is somewhat HDT related, seeing that I will be plugging my truck into my house to charge the batteries.
OK, here's what I am doing.  I'm building a house and running my main electric feed 130' underground in 2 1/2 PVC conduit for 200 amp service.  I've been told that I can run (2) 250 MCM alum for hot and (1) 4/0 alum for neutral and (1) #4 copper for ground.  
The electrical store I want to order the wire from says they cannot tell me what wire I need because of legal issues and they are not certified electricians.  I don't know the difference from THHN and XHHW-2 or anything else and before ordering and making a $500 mistake I thought I would ask.
Any ideas on what I should order?
Thanks in advance.

[Ronbo]

Do a search for wire size. There are several apps and web sites. Why aluminum? Copper would always be better.

[Darryl&Rita]

If this is a main service run, I wouldn't de-rate the neutral to 4/0. Allowed under code, but not something I'd do. I'd also avoid Al wire, due to installation techniques needed, and maintenance required. Wire types are dedicated to the areas they will be installed in. Due to legal issues, I'm not going to give the answer to what I'd install. 😀

[Imurphy907]

Your power company should have a service connection booklet. In that, they will spec out min wire size and type for different services. What one power company want to hook up will be different from another.

[lockmup68]

and you can run buriable wire and ditch the conduit.

[Moresmoke]

29 minutes ago, lockmup68 said:

and you can run buriable wire and ditch the conduit.

Depends where you are. In the pile of beach sand I live on now, no problem.  The pile of crushed shale I grew up on, you’d be digging it back up in a couple years without conduit.

[Sehc]

I would be interested in what jurisdiction allowed main feeder to not be in conduit. I would use copper, there are many problems with aluminum wire.

[jkoenig24]

Conduit will allow you to easily pull an additional line in the future (straight run; any turns might require  junction box(es) where turns are made). AL and CU have different coefficients of expansion. If an AL/CU mix IS allowed where you are, it's critical that it gets done RIGHT. The property and life you save could be your own. I'd second the suggestion of seeing what your power provided will hook up to. You should probably check local electric codes too (some places go BEYOND what the NEC and NFPA minimums call for). A mistake while trying to save a few bucks could cost you dearly down the road.

[Moresmoke]

2 hours ago, Sehc said:

I would be interested in what jurisdiction allowed main feeder to not be in conduit. I would use copper, there are many problems with aluminum wire.

Here in rural ND only the exposed above ground portion needs to be in conduit.

Heck, many of the distribution lines are direct buried underground.

[dennisvr]

When I posted I thought I would get a lot of answers that weren't what I asked, but I started the thread anyway.  
Let me start by saying I have the PVC conduit in the ground and signed off by the county inspector.  Next I live in central Calif. and alum wire is used for main lines and lines going to sub panels, (not for convenience receptacles).  I had my house wired by a certified electrical contractor and he was the one that told me what to use for the main wires going from the main power pole to my house.  For example, he ran 4/0 alum between sub panels in the house.  And yes I could use copper, but its 4 times as much as alum.  So as long as its legal and what the contractors would use, I will be using it also.
The question I have is what wire to order.  XHHW, THHN or something else.  
As I noted on the original post, I know this isn't really the place to post this question, but I know there are a couple guys on here that know there stuff and so I thought I would throw this question out there.
 

[Steve from SoCal]

I'll make this comment, XHHW will bend  little easier than THHN.      Neither is going to be easy at the sizes used, the XHHW is more abrasion resistant.

 

Steve

[Lance A Lott]

I have 500 feet 4/0 aluminum and have had it for 33 years direct no conduit. It was 1000 feet until the land next to us was sold and they move the pole 500 feet closer to our house. I have a large house, lots of people and run welders and have a 80 gallon air compressor. I can look on the wire and see which it is tomorrow. Of course what I used in the back woods of Vermont may not be what you should use. It comes as three twisted wires and the ground is 2/0 I believe. It is not pull to pull through conduit.

[dennisvr]

4 minutes ago, Steve from SoCal said:

I'll make this comment, XHHW will bend  little easier than THHN.      Neither is going to be easy at the sizes used, the XHHW is more abrasion resistant.

 

Steve

Thanks Steve
Seeing that I have (3) 90 deg and (1) 45 deg to pull thru, easier bending will be good.  I used 24" bends and now I wish I used 36" and maybe 3" conduit, but its what the contractor said would work so I will see.
Thanks again

[dennisvr]

13 minutes ago, Lance A Lott said:

I have 500 feet 4/0 aluminum and have had it for 33 years direct no conduit. It was 1000 feet until the land next to us was sold and they move the pole 500 feet closer to our house. I have a large house, lots of people and run welders and have a 80 gallon air compressor. I can look on the wire and see which it is tomorrow. Of course what I used in the back woods of Vermont may not be what you should use. It comes as three twisted wires and the ground is 2/0 I believe. It is not pull to pull through conduit.

I had asked around about direct burial cable and was told I should use conduit, so I did.  I think its a good idea because I'm building my house on a hill of rocks.  I have about 1/2 acre that was cut off the top of a hill and it drops off all the way around at a 45 deg angle.  The rocks are all tumbled like river rock any where between 2"rocks to 4' boulders.  Every time I hire a backhoe they tell me don't call them again, its pretty tough going.
Now the other question, how did the rocks get up here about 400' from the valleys below.  I'm thinking ether glacier or volcanic upheaval.   Leaning more on the volcanic, because my neighbor when he built his house had to drill and use rods to anchor the house, because they couldn't dig footings, it was solid rock.  He called it volcanic dome.  Funny we live about 500 yds apart and the ground is different.  
Every time I start complaining about the rocks I tell myself its all about the view.  We have a fabulous one.

[Lance A Lott]

Are there any elbows in your pipe? The aluminum wire is very stiff and will not push through a elbow. In case you don't already know you get a bricklayers string and a wad of cloth to ti it to and then suck it through the pipe with a shop vack then pull a stronger rope through that you hitch to the wire. And I don't think you will pull them through separately. Go to Home Depot and run your wire of choose into a pice of pipe. Copper wire is usually smaller for the same amount of amperage.

[NeverEasy]

Use lots of wire pulling lubricant.

Every aluminum connection needs an anti-oxident coating.

Wire ran in conduit will retain heat more than direct burial.

I have never saw a system with a de-rated neutral but I can see why it would be permitted.  True that the current in the neutral wire is zero in a perfectly balanced system  and where an imbalance takes place, the neutral current is equal to the imbalance between both hots.   If for some reason the system's entire load is on one leg of the hot then the neutral wire current will be equal to that on the hot wire.  For that reason (including our RVs) most systems are built for that remote possibility and the neutral wire is the same size as the hot wires.

 

[dennisvr]

11 hours ago, NeverEasy said:

Use lots of wire pulling lubricant.

Every aluminum connection needs an anti-oxident coating.

Wire ran in conduit will retain heat more than direct burial.

I have never saw a system with a de-rated neutral but I can see why it would be permitted.  True that the current in the neutral wire is zero in a perfectly balanced system  and where an imbalance takes place, the neutral current is equal to the imbalance between both hots.   If for some reason the system's entire load is on one leg of the hot then the neutral wire current will be equal to that on the hot wire.  For that reason (including our RVs) most systems are built for that remote possibility and the neutral wire is the same size as the hot wires.

 

Thanks NeverEasy,
Planning on using a lot of lube.  My electrical contractor electrician said he just pours a gallon in the conduit and pulls the wire.  Seems a little lazy to me, but what do I know.  I thought I would pour some down the conduit and try to lube the wire as it goes by hand.  
I have no problem using 250 mcm for the hot and the neutrals except I have fear of having problems pulling it thru the conduit.  Maybe the fear is unjustified, but I sure don't want to have to dig this back up to run the wires.

[Lance A Lott]

I am concerned that the elbows will give you problems with 4/0 wire. One will be hard but four.  For 200 amp service you need 4/0 aluminum or 2/0 copper. With everything together ,and back filled?, you may want to consider whether you can pull the 4/0. Like I recommend go to the hardware store and try sliding a elbow over the wire to see,how hard it goes before you buy. Good luck

[Chad Heiser]

When I built my shop, I pulled four 2 gauge wires (stranded copper) through 120 feet of conduit with four 90 degree sweeps in the conduit (1 vertical at the supply side, 2 horizontal under ground and another vertical at the load side).  I used 3 inch conduit and it was a difficult pull.  I don't think I could have pulled the size wire you are looking at through the same conduit.  I wish you the best of luck.

[Hewhoknowslittle]

2 hours ago, Chad Heiser said:

When I built my shop, I pulled four 2 gauge wires (stranded copper) through 120 feet of conduit with four 90 degree sweeps in the conduit (1 vertical at the supply side, 2 horizontal under ground and another vertical at the load side).  I used 3 inch conduit and it was a difficult pull.  I don't think I could have pulled the size wire you are looking at through the same conduit.  I wish you the best of luck.

When we ran our at our shop, we used 2 1/2 inch conduit 2 90 degree sweeps and 2 45 degree sweeps, run was approximately 275 feet, we used heavy rope hooked to the copper cable, winch on the rope to pull the cable and lube, was not a easy pull but it pulled and got hooked up, now what was that wench hooked to, wait for it a Holmes wrecker with at 40 ton winch, it didn't even strain but the operator did say we had a hell of a pull on it. We just needed ol DT there to give us some better ideas, but alas it's done and working good.

Roger 

[dan412]

I layed the wire out next to the ditch and the conduit slid one piece of pipe over the wire at a time then glued until I had all together then put the whole works in the ditch.

[dennisvr]

1 hour ago, Hewhoknowslittle said:

When we ran our at our shop, we used 2 1/2 inch conduit 2 90 degree sweeps and 2 45 degree sweeps, run was approximately 275 feet, we used heavy rope hooked to the copper cable, winch on the rope to pull the cable and lube, was not a easy pull but it pulled and got hooked up, now what was that wench hooked to, wait for it a Holmes wrecker with at 40 ton winch, it didn't even strain but the operator did say we had a hell of a pull on it. We just needed ol DT there to give us some better ideas, but alas it's done and working good.

Roger 

I'm thinking along the same way.  I thought I would make a tripod set up with a pully and hook it to my 8000 lb winch on my Samurai, I think I will have to anchor the rear of the Samurai to my HDT for good measure.

[dennisvr]

5 minutes ago, dan412 said:

I layed the wire out next to the ditch and the conduit slid one piece of pipe over the wire at a time then glued until I had all together then put the whole works in the ditch.

Dan, I had thought about doing the same.  Someone told me that the glue would react to the insulation on the wire.  It may have been a bunch of BS.  
In hindsight I think I should have done it that way also.  

[Dollytrolley]

1 hour ago, Hewhoknowslittle said:

When we ran our at our shop, we used 2 1/2 inch conduit 2 90 degree sweeps and 2 45 degree sweeps, run was approximately 275 feet, we used heavy rope hooked to the copper cable, winch on the rope to pull the cable and lube, was not a easy pull but it pulled and got hooked up, now what was that wench hooked to, wait for it a Holmes wrecker with at 40 ton winch, it didn't even strain but the operator did say we had a hell of a pull on it. We just needed ol DT there to give us some better ideas, but alas it's done and working good.

Roger 

Ok guys ......  Here we go again using my name in vain.......so...... Dollymamma  "decided" that her slave-boy needed to cobble a beach ride place on one of the few nice Sandy beaches in Oregon so I went over a bought 8 acres at the Wakonda Beach Airport and climbed on the old excavator and made roads, dug water, septic, and Electric service trenches (one 11 FEET deep under a existing culvert (elec. Co. Demanded THREE feet under culvert))......$0......

Obviously the 400 foot conduit run for a 400 amp service would be a bit of a tug so I went fully .....Dolly-mode......I made my own full custom gentle sweeps from TEN foot lenghts of 3" PVC conduit.....How you ask?........just slide the PVC into the exhaust pipe of the 1963 F750 dump truck and pull the throttle knob out a couple of inches and wait until the PVC was as limp as a garden hose and then just curve it into a gentle big radius sweep like the big boys do......... 

Of course you do need to stay awake when Dollymamma is lifting the bucket on the excavator pulling the wire and I am reattaching the rope....... cowgirls cand do mean things with ropes but this in not that kind of forum......

 

Drive on.......(gentle sweeps make easy wire pulls)

[HERO Maker]

2 hours ago, dan412 said:

I layed the wire out next to the ditch and the conduit slid one piece of pipe over the wire at a time then glued until I had all together then put the whole works in the ditch.

That's the way we have laid wire to two different projects in Mexico.  Just don't get too sloppy with the pipe cement.