Car & Driver rates the EV

[Kirk W]

Best Electric Vehicles for 2022, Tested     BY CAR AND DRIVER           JUN 24, 2022

 

Tested: How Towing Affects the Electric Pickups—Hummer EV, Rivian R1T, and the Ford F-150 Lightning

BY CAR AND DRIVER     AUG 18, 2022

[RV_]

Great Info Kirk!

They nailed the Rivian in the ratings. Editor's choice award as well.

I think it is great to see real competition. Now let's se if the lead times to get one improve as well.

Especially the second article. They are still usable as a Toad on a Trailer since they can charge on the RV park 50 Amp and 30 amp outlets. I bought both adapters for trips but use the 50 amp only for charging here at home. My use for it is just picking up stuff we buy on Marketplace and other bulky things on a small 4X8 utility trailer locally only. Just like we used our Ram diesel 2500 pickups after we came off the road full time. Since they can be charged at the campground local camping trips with a small tear drop for us would be fine for touring Colorado if we stay. I read all the comments under the towing article and it was very enlightening. Thank you.

Edited September 5, 2022 by RV_

[Kirk W]

1 hour ago, RV_ said:

They are still usable as a Toad on a Trailer since they can charge on the RV park 50 Amp and 30 amp outlets.

I would suspect that if/when that becomes common, parks will not start to charge extra for the use of both outlets? It is pretty common now for there to be a small extra charge for 50A service. 

[Chalkie]

1 hour ago, Kirk W said:

I would suspect that if/when that becomes common, parks will not start to charge extra for the use of both outlets? It is pretty common now for there to be a small extra charge for 50A service. 

The extra  for 50 amp service is a crock in my opinion. I know some parks do it though. If you are in a park that charges you for electric they should not care. What wouldn't surprise me, given the increased cost of utilities is that parks start charging for electric even on overnight stays. The technology is available it is just a matter of if the parks want to install it. 

 

[RV_]

I would imagine none of us would mind paying a reasonable fee for charging. 

If one objects to an additional fee for 50amp they can move - the beauty of RVs, no?

 

[RV_]

3 hours ago, Kirk W said:

I would suspect that if/when that becomes common, parks will not start to charge extra for the use of both outlets? It is pretty common now for there to be a small extra charge for 50A service. 

I sure don't mind paying my way. 50amp is like premium gas - if you want more bang for your buck, you'll pay more buck for the bang! 😉

[bigjim]

In years past most of the SKP parks I stayed at charged by usage based on the meter at your site. I liked that. I had a smaller rig with some solar and one person.  I don't know if any skp parks still charge for what you use but I sure felt like I was subsidizing the larger rigs with multiple people and a washer and dryer and who knows what else when staying at a flat rate park. I don't begrudge anyone having what they want but it sure does not seem fair with a flat rate for a site be it 30a or 50a.  I don't mean to single out skp parks as every commercial park, COE park, state pk. etc did the same.

[bruce t]

I've been in plenty of parks, especially NPs, BLMs and SPs, that haven't the amps to run an a/c. So where's the amps coming from to charge an EV? 

EVs for towing, as we now know it, is many, many, many years away.

 

 

[RV_]

50 minutes ago, bruce t said:

I've been in plenty of parks, especially NPs, BLMs and SPs, that haven't the amps to run an a/c. So where's the amps coming from to charge an EV? 

EVs for towing, as we now know it, is many, many, many years away.

That may be. But EVs for driving - that's been real, powerful, awesome handling, and are now pretty close to the average new ICE car price, for several years now. 

But that's just my experience, which informs my opinion. I've owned and driven the best Ice sports cars AND the best EV so far.  I know BOTH from owning and driving experience.

I'm fine with you not wanting one. 

About your fellow Australians, well here's some news for you without excerpts.

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/09/05/tesla-is-7th-best-selling-auto-brand-in-australia-in-august/

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/09/05/electric-cars-23-of-new-zealand-auto-market-tesla-12/

Enjoy!

Safe travels!

 

 

 

[bruce t]

RV I have no issues with EVs. "Right tool for the right place". I read an article recently that said 77% of Australia road miles traveled in Australia are urban miles. That figure I believe is 70% in the USA. So EVs have their place and should be 'encouraged'. But what I, and many others, object to is ANY government telling us what we can or can't drive. Let the market decide. And don't let ideology blind common sense. 

 

 

[durangodon]

8 hours ago, bigjim said:

In years past most of the SKP parks I stayed at charged by usage based on the meter at your site. I liked that. I had a smaller rig with some solar and one person.  I don't know if any skp parks still charge for what you use but I sure felt like I was subsidizing the larger rigs with multiple people and a washer and dryer and who knows what else when staying at a flat rate park. I don't begrudge anyone having what they want but it sure does not seem fair with a flat rate for a site be it 30a or 50a.  I don't mean to single out skp parks as every commercial park, COE park, state pk. etc did the same.

I agree with you if you're talking about long term stays (monthly or even weekly).  However, charging by usage is not practical for overnight stays.  I've noticed that overnighters leave at various times in the morning, some at sunrise and others at almost noon.  When I'm traveling, I don't want to have to wait until the office opens to settle up my electrical fees, I just want to get on the road, the earlier the better.

I think parks do a good job charging, considering all the variables.  Some sites are just nicer and more scenic than others, some people take longer showers, others use the swimming pool while some don't.  No two situations are completely identical.

I do agree that 50 amp should cost more than 30 amp.  Many times I would run both a/c units to cool down my rig.  I also used 110 volt to heat my fifth wheel.  No reason a tent camper should pay as much as I do for electricity.

[Kirk W]

28 minutes ago, durangodon said:

I do agree that 50 amp should cost more than 30 amp.  Many times I would run both a/c units to cool down my rig.  I also used 110 volt to heat my fifth wheel.  No reason a tent camper should pay as much as I do for electricity.

Absolutely, and if that RV arrives being towed by an EV there should be an extra fee for power to recharge the EV batteries. Any park that doesn't charge the EV to fill up should also supply diesel or gasoline to the other RVs who stay. 

[Dutch_12078]

2 hours ago, Kirk W said:

Absolutely, and if that RV arrives being towed by an EV there should be an extra fee for power to recharge the EV batteries. Any park that doesn't charge the EV to fill up should also supply diesel or gasoline to the other RVs who stay. 

Should the person with a three A/C Prevost on a site be charged more than someone parking an a-frame popup with no A/C's on the same site? If we pay for a 50 amp site should there be some sort of limit on how much we use the service we're paying for? Yes, I'm playing "devils advocate" to an extent, but I think those are legitimate questions in relation to charging an EV on a site we're paying for.

[TXiceman]

3 hours ago, Kirk W said:

Absolutely, and if that RV arrives being towed by an EV there should be an extra fee for power to recharge the EV batteries. Any park that doesn't charge the EV to fill up should also supply diesel or gasoline to the other RVs who stay. 

I agree.  Pay your own way folks.  All this "green" electric vehicle use is not FREE.

Ken

[RV_]

13 hours ago, bruce t said:

RV I have no issues with EVs. "Right tool for the right place". I read an article recently that said 77% of Australia road miles traveled in Australia are urban miles. That figure I believe is 70% in the USA. So EVs have their place and should be 'encouraged'. But what I, and many others, object to is ANY government telling us what we can or can't drive. Let the market decide. And don't let ideology blind common sense. 

 

 

I agree. Since you are from Oz you probably did not know that in the US, the National Automobile Dealer's Association (NADA) and the manufacturers/oil industry protecting their turf, lobbied to have state laws passed outlawing manufacturer direct sales of EVs in their states if they do not have a dealership?   Many states still have these laws enacted from when Tesla started selling direct only in the last ten years or so. So their residents have to buy their Tesla in another state and have it delivered. Talk about the government telling us what we could and could not buy.

http://www.okenergytoday.com/2021/06/state-law-will-interfere-with-direct-sales-of-tesla-cars/

 

Tesla has to ship Texas-made cars to other states before it can sell them to Texans because of state laws

Kate Duffy

June 1, 2021·2 min read

https://www.yahoo.com/news/tesla-ship-texas-made-cars-120638740.html

 

 

Here is a Wiki that lists the states with direct sales bans in an attempt to stop EV sales. Note: This dealer protection only exists in the US as of this writing.

Scroll down to: "States with total direct sales bans" here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_dealership_disputes

Tell me about government telling us what we can and can't buy. But they allow them to be registered in those states and take taxes on the sales in instances when they taxes are not paid out of state. But then, you're in Australia and they don't have laws "protecting" stealerships there, do they?

On edit, when that did not work, and GM and Ford among others saw the European and Chinese manufacturers coming out with EVs that blow away the performance and handling of ICE-engined vehicles, realized they had painted themselves in a corner. Now when their EVs start to sell they can't sell direct either and have to keep the dealership Franchise model! They can't compete that way.

Thus the news I posted that GM is buying out their Buick dealerships and hope to turn them into EV only Buick brand to skirt those laws.

Ford took another approach and created an EV division and is so far leaving their dealers alone but plan to sell direct at some point too, making it clear ICE Ford dealers won't have their manufacturer competing against them because they aren't able to sell EVs at all.

I have been pulling out the popcorn and watching them going through the realization and come up with hilarious ways to get around the laws they promoted years ago thinking EVs would never catch on.

The losers will be the dealers who are dead business models walking and consumer's choices. The dealerships get squeezed out in favor of repair center/showrooms like Tesla has. Then relying on OTA (Over The Air) updates for things that used to have to be done in the dealerships. We actually have a Tesla showroom and repair center right here in the Springs since last year too!

Let's let the market and people decide and take all those direct sales laws off the books and let the market decide. I have had one recall on HVAC sensors and the local Tesla repair center handled it fine in one afternoon. I have also had almost monthly OTA updates, many adding new features free of additional charge.

You said "Let the market decide. And don't let ideology blind common sense. " I am not a greenie, tree hugger or any of the other things said here. I drove Ram diesels to tow and for cowboy Caddilac duties from 1997-2019. Most folks act as if

 

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by RV_

[bruce t]

RV I'm well aware of any laws in the USA restricting interstate trade. I lived in the USA for 8 years and 'tried' to get around the various state sales tax laws. Sheez talk about a free country!!!! Every as a freelance photographer I ran into state restrictions trying to work at various shows in different states.

Remember it was the auto builders that shut down all the tram and trolley lines. So it's nothing new.

 

[RV_]

Bruce, I just did an edit above. Read the Wiki list of states and restrictions and you'll see. It is not interstate trade it is direct sales of vehicles which can only happen with EVs today because most of their things not accident related can be done OTA with few exceptions. It isn't a tax issue because those are collected at the time of registration. The states with Direct sales restrictions have no problems collecting their taxes if we want their plates. Did you read above where Texas residents can't buy a Tesla at the Texas factory and have to go out of state to buy their own vehicles made near Austin?

I agree let the market decide.

Let each state's citizens decide.

Meantime I intend to have a blast and drive the fastest cars and build the fastest computers just for fun. Life is too short and that is all the reason I need. Not you but many are just doing sour grapes today around the US about improvements in tech and energy. And it is not my job to edumacate them, as my recently passed Louisiana FIL used to say. I still do try to inform and  share cool stuff I find.  I do need to get off my duff and rewrite my personal website and get on my soapbox there. I play well in other peoples websites like here.

G'Day Bruce!

Safe Travels!

[Chalkie]

4 hours ago, RV_ said:

 Did you read above where Texas residents can't buy a Tesla at the Texas factory and have to go out of state to buy their own vehicles made near Austin?

 

Not exactly. There are showrooms here in Texas that let you kick the tires so to speak and then they help you make your purchase online. Your car is delivered somewhere outside of the state where you "take delivery" and then Tesla will truck it to your residence. I also read there is a recent update to New Mexico where Tesla struck a deal with a reservation and they are going to sell them and have a service center on tribal lands where the state of New Mexico can't touch them. Who knows, maybe Tesla will use that loophole here in Texas.

 

[Ray,IN]

Boy oh Boy, I sure agree with you Derek and Bruce! Our federal  government and state governments just keep passing new laws and restrictions on citizens while they keep getting bigger and bigger.

Sorry, back to regular programming.  I've no doubt battery technology will improve rather quickly now that there are a growing number of EV companies competing for customers.

This Silicone Dioxide battery is just one.

For home use this this flow battery shows promise when living off the grid is a goal.

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Ray,IN

[Kirk W]

Most franchise laws that restrict or prohibit direct sales of automobiles are not federal laws but are state controled and always have been. The first automobile franchise was established by William Metzger, who purchased the right to sell steam engine cars by General Motors in 1898. The first state franchise law was passed in 1936. The following article explains why and how such laws were enacted. Like most such laws, the public demanded they be passed at that time. 

Quote

The state and federal laws that make up the United States automotive franchise system developed over multiple decades to balance the competing interests of manufacturers and dealers in a way that is intended to benefit consumers and local communities. Until the 1930s, vehicles were distributed through a number of means, including manufacturer-owned stores, independent salespeople, and consignment arrangements. However, starting in the 1930s, the industry shifted distribution to independent franchises to address, in part, the high cost of maintaining showrooms and providing services to customers. Independent franchised dealers made the investments necessary to meet customer and community needs, but often faced manufacturers that attempted heavy-handed control. This circumstance, in turn,led dealers to push for regulation of the relationship between manufacturers and dealers, starting a process that resulted in the regulatory regime seen today.

An American solution: Automotive franchise laws serve local communities and consumers

It is very easy and popular to criticize laws at any level, but very few laws exist that were not asked for or promoted by the citizens of the place where they exist. Just as the laws are made to respond to current situations, they can also be changed, revoked, or modified to meet current situations, but those changes require effort and study. We need to use care in what laws we ask for since so often a new law has ramifications that nobody expected. In this case, the automotive industry has changed and continues to change so related laws and regulations need to do the same. It is easy to criticize the laws in place but it would be more effective if we put effort into changing the laws we dislike and improving or revoking them. The world we live in today has become ever more complicated and only rarely is the simple solution the best one. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Kirk W
correct typo

[RV_]

7 hours ago, Kirk W said:

Most franchise laws that restrict or prohibit direct sales of automobiles are not federal laws but are state controled and always have been.

 

If you read the link in my post above it shows all the different state laws restricting direct sales.

Nothing new there.

You can't promote less government restricting freedoms and then justify making Texas citizens go out of state to buy a car made in their state. Even in Kalifornia a buyer can go to the Fremont factory, take a tour and pick up their car they bought in their state. But they can't do that with a gasser without going through a dealer first. That's cool since the dealer invested in his dealership.

Tesla has no dealers and pays for their showrooms and repair facilities.

I read your Franchise law post in its entirety. It deals with unfair practices between the manufacturer and the dealers. Tesla and some other EV only companies have no dealers. So no unfair competition exists.

I pointed out in other investment posts that Ford is creating a new division and GM is slicing Buick away to become their EV brand, and buying out the dealers. Connecting the dots.

Want to bet within five years the dealers revolt and want EVs to sell, and/or the laws prohibiting direct sales in some states go away once the manufacturers and the the citizens decide it is a pain to jump through hoops that limit which cars they can easily buy.

Remember how fast the CD replaced the records?

How fast the DVD/BluRay/4kBluRay replaced VHS?

And today how fast streaming replaced Cable and any locally kept hard copies and now Disks and CDs are worth little.

I still buy the occasional 4k BluRay but the rest of my collection is not increasing anymore. I do buy a few CDs at yard sales just to rip to my computer and copy to SD card to use on trips.

If you leave ideologies behind, and realize the solutions to lower prices, range, and towing are being worked on by the same folks who successfully launch rockets and build their own engines, (not importing them from Russia, or refurbishing old Space Shuttle program engines) the outcomes are very predictable without getting into politics at all.

I am 70 and will see it all in my lifetime barring any accidents. I post the info that adds up to that.

I repeat Tesla has no dealers to do dirty, they own the showrooms and the customers can test drive and buy them here in Colorado. They have repair centers and mobile road help, all without dealers and third party road service insurance AFAIK.

Your link was all about manufacturers doing dealers wrong. I repeat, Tesla has no dealers. Nor spends $millions on advertising on TV/radio/newspapers. Oh there will be some fossil fueled vehicles and some of the old dealers in ten years hanging on.

Until they lick the towing range with the research and testing being done all over the world now there will be gas and diesel vehicles, RVs, and trucks available.  Remember the DVD analogy, first they could not record, then they could. The new tech products like the smart phones in 2007/2008 took no time to catch on. I use a Pixel 6 Pro myself but I don't want them to stop selling iPhones. I don't want them to stop selling gas and diesel vehicles either. The market will decide that. Free market? It's like pregnancy, you can't be a little free market. 🤔

Safe Travels!

Edited September 7, 2022 by RV_

[Kirk W]

1 hour ago, RV_ said:

You can't promote less government restricting freedoms and then justify making Texas citizens go out of state to buy a car made in their state.

So who was doing that? I mearly gave some history of automotive franchise laws with no comment in favor or opposed and suggested that talking or posting about it serves no useful purpose.  🙄

Tesla could sell cars in TX if they were to franchise a dealer and I'd bet that it wouldn't be difficult to find a willing dealership. Tesla management has chosen not to to set up delaerships in the states that require that and it is their right. As long as they sell everything they make without dealing with the franchise laws of any state, I see no reason for change. There are states that require automotive sales to be by franchise, but I find no evidence that any state has a law that is specific to prohibit Tesla sales.

Should the states change their franchise laws or do away with them? Thus far it remains up to each state to make that decision. I am no franchise law expert and doubt that any of us are. If it is an issue important to anyone they should probably study up and the subject and start contacting legislaters and Congress people. 

Quote

States that allow Tesla to sell cars directly to consumers in an unrestricted way are California, Colorado, Virginia, and New Hampshire.   CarShtuff  Aug 30, 2022

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Kirk W

[RV_]

Kirk you're the OP and posted that right after my post which already made it clear it was state laws not federal, and no other country in the world makes those distinctions.

Thanks for a really interesting thread. Your initial links and posts were dead on!

Your comments about franchise laws applies to Ford and GM and any other manufacturer who has dealers in the US. If GM shreds out Buick as an EV only dealership owned solely by GM, and Ford's new EV only division with assurances they will keep making ICE vehicles in their remaining gas division, IMHO it isn't going to be long.

That is just opinion. I believe that the laws will soon be modified so that any EV division, or entirely manufacturer owned showrooms of companies with dealers for ICE cars only and repair facilities, like Tesla does, will be written out of all restrictions.

It will all sort itself out in most states I am sure.

[Kirk W]

5 minutes ago, RV_ said:

That is just opinion. I believe that the laws will soon be modified so that any EV division, or entirely manufacturer owned showrooms of companies with dealers for ICE cars only and repair facilities, like Tesla does, will be written out of all restrictions.

You could well be right. I would certainly expect changes as I don't believe that most of those laws have been changed much in years, but that too is opinion as I'm not sure. Online sales have been happening in used cars, I think in most states via Vroom and Carvana. I have seen stories of problems with Carvana but not Vroom. There are probably others. I really see no reason why they can sell used cars that way and not new ones, but I suppose there might be some reason.

[sandsys]

Dealers here are not allowed to sell on Sunday. Locals wanted to buy anytime so tried to get the law changed. Dealers objected.

Linda