Car & Driver rates the EV

[RV_]

Kirk re-read your franchise article above all the way through.

The short answer is because dealerships are expensive and if the manufacturer competed with their own dealers, which happened and dealers tried to screw their manufacturers, then they could always beat the private dealer prices and drive them out of business leaving all the profits to themselves.

So states also made laws to protect their local dealers.

Carvana and others are also being fought, especially now with the cost of used cars close to their new prices. But if a used car dealer can operate in the same town those laws make 0 sense to me.

And make zero sense when the EV manufacturer has no dealers anywhere in the world that they can harm by competition. That's a fact.

And soon there will be  a lot of feelings hurt when the current ICE manufacturers separate divisions so they can sell directly as well, or not be able to compete in price because of them paying a middleman. SO we see the start with Ford separating out to two divisions, an Ice Division and an EV division. And GM Buying out their ICE Buick dealers to make Buick an EV brand for them, which could sell direct if they straighten out the laws to let manufacturers sell direct if no dealers are hurt by their competition.

Like the manufacturers who fought to help enact laws against direct ten years ago because they and the oil guys thought they could stop them when Tesla was just starting out. Our US interests can't hold back the tides worldwide and EVs are a done deal.

Anyone concerned about electric power should be behind updating our power generation infrastructure. I can say I am glad we are here where the temps rarely get high and the humidity is very low. And we don't have the rolling blackouts the folks that want no power generation plants in their backyard are having.

I am all for coal to transition as we get renewables done. States that depended on hydro for a lot in the west are really in trouble as the drought reduces water to power them.

 

 

[RV_]

18 minutes ago, sandsys said:

Dealers here are not allowed to sell on Sunday. Locals wanted to buy anytime so tried to get the law changed. Dealers objected.

Linda

Where Linda? Sunday sales should be up to the dealers. But if they eliminate the law they lose that business. Our Tesla showrooms and repair shops where we take delivery are also closed on Sunday and Monday here, so they can get the Saturday shoppers. EVs, direct sales or not.

Edited September 7, 2022 by RV_

[sandsys]

3 hours ago, RV_ said:

Where Linda? Sunday sales should be up to the dealers. But if they eliminate the law they lose that business.

Minnesota. Dealers here think they won't get enough Sunday business to cover the cost of overhead. But, if one opens, how long will the rest be able to hold out? So, they prefer the law that says competition can't open Sunday, either.

Linda

[Chalkie]

4 hours ago, RV_ said:

Sunday sales should be up to the dealers.

And in Colorado you would be incorrect. 

Colorado Revised Statute section 44-20-302 (2020) says:

No person, firm, or corporation, whether owner, proprietor, agent, or employee, shall keep open, operate, or assist in keeping open or operating any place or premises or residences, whether open or closed, for the purpose of selling, bartering, or exchanging or offering for sale, barter, or exchange any motor vehicle, whether new, used, or secondhand, on the first day of the week commonly called Sunday.

Here in Texas a car dealer can be open on Sunday but they can not be open on both Saturday and Sunday. They need to be close one day or the other. 

Every state has their own set of regulations.

 

[Kirk W]

8 hours ago, sandsys said:

Minnesota. Dealers here think they won't get enough Sunday business to cover the cost of overhead.

While seen as an unneeded government regulation by some, the Sunday sales ban is fervently protected by dealers. A few years back, lawmakers in Illinois, Texas and New Jersey made progress toward the removal of the ban. Car salespeople in these states raised their voices against the move. They claimed operating on Sundays is more complicated, because financial institutions do not work then. Dealers also stated that making their staff work on Sundays often resulted in high employee turnover rates.

 

Quote

In 18 states across the country, auto dealers are restricted or banned from operating on Sundays. In a number of them, there are legislative battles and mixed signals from the industry whether the ban should be lifted.

Quote

Today, there are 13 states in which car dealerships are forbidden to sell vehicles on Sundays. These include Colorado, Oklahoma, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Illinois, Missouri, Indiana, Louisiana, Mississippi, Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Maine.

In another seven states, car sales on Sundays are restricted in specific counties or during certain hours. The so-called mixed states are Nevada, Utah, Texas, North Dakota, Michigan, Rhode Island and Maryland.

 

[Chalkie]

9 hours ago, Chalkie said:

And in Colorado you would be incorrect. 

Colorado Revised Statute section 44-20-302 (2020) says:

No person, firm, or corporation, whether owner, proprietor, agent, or employee, shall keep open, operate, or assist in keeping open or operating any place or premises or residences, whether open or closed, for the purpose of selling, bartering, or exchanging or offering for sale, barter, or exchange any motor vehicle, whether new, used, or secondhand, on the first day of the week commonly called Sunday.

Here in Texas a car dealer can be open on Sunday but they can not be open on both Saturday and Sunday. They need to be closed one day or the other. 

Every state has their own set of regulations.

 

 

[RV_]

15 hours ago, sandsys said:

Minnesota. Dealers here think they won't get enough Sunday business to cover the cost of overhead. But, if one opens, how long will the rest be able to hold out? So, they prefer the law that says competition can't open Sunday, either.

Linda

Gotcha!

[RV_]

Sheesh guys! I clearly wrote "should" be up to the dealers, I know the "Blue laws" here and in many states prohibit dealerships being open on Sundays. Did I say is up to the dealers in Colorado? Incorrect? 😏

If you want to sharpshoot my posts and can't find something incorrect, please at least read them before you put words in my posts that are not there. It is even in the quote you made.

 

 

[bruce t]

Back to the OP. EV's, by any measure, aren't ready for mainstream towing tasks.

Here's a YouTube video/s. Now CAUTION. This guy curses and uses some bad language that may offend some folks. So you have been WARNED. I post these links as a debate on the towing capabilities of EVs and do not condone the behaviour of the presenter.

He is a fully qualified and experience automotive engineer. Not a forum 'expert'. No I haven't personally checked his credentials.

But I suggest those who are interested watch both videos. Especially the second video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIlpHWo5uZo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0V99iiEJvY

 

 

[RV_]

"They are called facts, you don't have to like them."

Bruce, love this guy on your videos. And I agree with him.

If you go way back to the second post in this thread you will see this paragraph:

 

"Especially the second article. They are still usable as a Toad on a Trailer since they can charge on the RV park 50 Amp and 30 amp outlets. I bought both adapters for trips but use the 50 amp only for charging here at home. My use for it is just picking up stuff we buy on Marketplace and other bulky things on a small 4X8 utility trailer locally only."

 

I agreed with Kirk's second article that towing more than 100 to 150 miles each way with EVs is not doable yet. But if you did not read the articles Kirks started with that context would have been missed.

Who is your "forum expert" here? Wait . . .  you are on this forum.

I watched both of your videos Bruce and first had to figure out what a UTE is, and it is just what Australians call a pickup truck. F-150

I watched both videos and he is a character. However his premise is that at current battery tech pickup trucks can't tow hundreds of miles. I agree.

Kirk changed the topic in post three changing it to EVs need to pay extra as if any of us are planning on not paying our way. etc.

So Bruce we all agreed in the first two posts that EVs are not ready for towing.

I love my EV car. As your video Aussie, John Cadogen, who has as his YouTube sig block "Auto Expert" says - my loving my EV is called a fact, you don't have to like it"

Everyone is in agreement from the start of this thread, including me, that towing with EVs is not ready for Prime time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

328K subscribers

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by RV_

[RV_]

I am going to type slowly . . . I just agreed with Bruce's videos about pickups not suitable for Australian UTE adventuring.

Edited September 9, 2022 by RV_

[bruce t]

RV every forum on the net has it's share of 'experts'. I'm not pointing out anyone as the difference between 'expert' and 'opinion' is often very grey. Sorry 'gray'.  Darn Americans and their 'English'!!! 😃

 

[sandsys]

1 hour ago, bruce t said:

RV every forum on the net has it's share of 'experts'. I'm not pointing out anyone as the difference between 'expert' and 'opinion' is often very grey. Sorry 'gray'.  Darn Americans and their 'English'!!! 😃

 

I've heard it said that England and America are two counties separated by a single language.

What's in your boot? A suitcase or a foot?

Linda

[RV_]

37 minutes ago, bruce t said:

RV every forum on the net has it's share of 'experts'. I'm not pointing out anyone as the difference between 'expert' and 'opinion' is often very grey. Sorry 'gray'.  Darn Americans and their 'English'!!! 😃

 

😂 your video Aussie, John Cadogen is a hoot!

One thing though, most Americans don't do Aussie adventuring with the biggest trucks raised and loud. Oh we have lots that do do that and are not RVrs. Most Americans  don't haul RVs as I don't for now, and just use our trucks as cars and for going to pick up bags of lawn stuff, grain or horse feed, or sheets of plywood once in a great while. Like yards sales. I would expect folks to due diligence when buying their car or truck.

John's video says that the lighter the better for EVs but he uses the Hummer EV in his video as most acceptable for Aussie adventuring. And his premise is based on that large extreme, or using EV bicycles and scooters at the other extreme. It isn't either/or. There are lots of folks like me that will only use the truck within 100 miles without towing. Lots of in between sized trucks and SUVs work great for me as well as a utility trailer which I could use for the Tesla or Forester.

So while I agree that for Aussies "adventuring" perhaps as John said only something humongous will make them happy. Or Americans towing heavy be they RVs or trailers of tools and oil rig gear EVs today won't do. And for caravans (Aussie for RV right?) that they just aren't up to more then 150 miles one way. like ICE trucks half their mileage unloaded, but ICE-engined tow vehicles can load up more range to make up for that. My Diesel Cummins Ram trucks got 20 to 22 mpg off-load, and only 11 mpg hauling heavy. Once they cn get 500 miles of range from EV trucks then they can do what ICE engines do now.

The solution Bruce as you nailed is the right too for the job.

But for in town work trucks for plumbers and electricians, as well as folks using them as second vehicles like me who might have something in the back occasionally or when doing yard sales, they should be just fine. I have had my giant Diesel 1 ton and 3/4 ton trucks and do not need one today. But they are still around if I do.

However, I always had Subarus, a Trooper for off-roading. A 1978 Brat back in the 70s and their AWD station wagons in the 80s, and then two Foresters in the 2000s. As well as a VW "Thing," A Honda Odyssey ATV, for my off road adventure vehicles. I had military Hummers, Giant Dodge Ram 4WD six pack crew cabs, a Jeep CJ7 and Metro vans assigned to me and my combat arms shops.

My lighter ones did not sink into the mud/sand/ground as easily and were much more nimble than the bigger trucks.

My uses work for me. Other's uses perhaps not.

There's room for both today.

BTW has anyone else watched Bruce's two 20-30 minute videos? They are really good.

[RV_]

1 hour ago, bruce t said:

RV every forum on the net has it's share of 'experts'. I'm not pointing out anyone as the difference between 'expert' and 'opinion' is often very grey. Sorry 'gray'.  Darn Americans and their 'English'!!! 😃

 

You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.

Daniel Patrick Moynihan

 

Using "forum expert" as a slur implies expertise above that of the so-called "forum expert" in the forum it is used in - fair dinkum?

 

So let me return the humor and not aimed at you or anyone else here, anymore then yours was. I have put this here before too. John Cleese of Monty Python 60 second video, hilarious!

 

 

[sandsys]

My late friend illustrated exactly what John Cleese was saying--my friend had no idea how inept he was. I have said I think Wally in the Dilbert cartoon was based on my friend--even looks like him. Except I think Wally is more aware of himself.

Linda

[Kirk W]

Edited September 10, 2022 by Kirk W

[RV_]

14 hours ago, sandsys said:

My late friend illustrated exactly what John Cleese was saying--my friend had no idea how inept he was. I have said I think Wally in the Dilbert cartoon was based on my friend--even looks like him. Except I think Wally is more aware of himself.

Linda

I loved Dilbert and Pogo in the day! I miss the Sunday edition of the NY Times and the comics. Thanks for the memory jog.

Yep, we all know folks like that. The funny thing is that they are unaware they are poster children for the Dunning Kruger effect.

You may like this article too Linda: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/resolution-not-conflict/201603/can-you-spot-10-signs-childish-adult?utm_source=pocket_mylist

[RV_]

2 hours ago, Kirk W said:

Now that's funny no matter what you drive. Irony - the opposite of wrinkly!

[sandsys]

1 hour ago, RV_ said:

I loved Dilbert and Pogo in the day! I miss the Sunday edition of the NY Times and the comics. Thanks for the memory jog.

I read my newspaper comics on-line. When they expand on Sundays, that is my cue to do weekly computer backups.

Linda

[RV_]

Back to towing?

Since the topic Kirk opened is the best EV trucks and then towing limitations. I will post about the EV Truck I have on order. These are fun! The videos show two different towing opinions tests, how it worked all day as a farm truck, and how it compares racing against EV sedans. If one of you have an EV truck on order or own one please let us know what you like about the one you ordered.

So far the comments have been that EV Trucks can't tow because of range limitations and for RVs over a smaller weekender they are not ideal. Today to tow a medium to large RV they are unsuitable.

For everyday use however, they have more power and acceleration, and for normal work loads can work all day.

Here is 1500 mile review by a truck guy and he shows and tows and talks about how cardboard broke something. Filmed May 31, 2022.

 

 

Can it work all day as a farm truck?

 

 

FIRST EVER Ram TRX vs. Rivian R1T Drag Race: Is The T-Rex Finally Going Down? At the end they also race fairly against an instant torque performance Model Y versus the R1T:

 

The Wold's Toughest Towing Test (according to the testers)

The towing test on I-70 in Colorado Elevation change, hills, altitude and no I am not interested in towing 8000 pounds in the mountains. But a 2500 pound self contained trailer no problem for me. But we are not full time. So I can match a smaller trailer to my truck if we decide to get another RV. These guys have done this tow test on a lot of Gas and diesel for ten years. This is their first EV Truck test. Really shows the towing range issue with a heavy tow.

 

They start racing all these other EVs starting with the Mustang Mach E at 8:58 into the video. They race the Rivian against all these including a Tesla S Plaid! The great thing about this video is they have a graphic showing price and other data about each for number crunching.

 

[RV_]

50 minutes ago, sandsys said:

I read my newspaper comics on-line. When they expand on Sundays, that is my cue to do weekly computer backups.

Linda

Not a bad back backup schedule! Better than mine Linda! Great way to remember.

Edited September 10, 2022 by RV_

[bruce t]

Everyone of us has seen the pickups that have large generators and welders on the back that work on the gas and oil fields. (More often than not in the rig beside us and the one that leaves at 5am every morning). Imagine the irony of working in the fossil fuel industry and driving an EV pickup that doesn't use what you are working to get and needs charging every night. I guess with their own generator they can charge themselves! Hang on a minute. Doesn't that need diesel to run the generator that you need to charge your EV so that we don't need fossil fuels? The generator that puts out more emissions to charge the EV than the fossil fuel truck it's replacing. A generator that would need to run longer to charge the EV than the trip to get to work in the ICE.

It's a crazy mixed up world with common sense and logic being the biggest victims.

I'll repeat. I'm not against EVs. I'm against the mad rush to justify something that simply has no cost benefit at this point of time.

 

[Ray,IN]

On 9/7/2022 at 11:12 PM, sandsys said:

Minnesota. Dealers here think they won't get enough Sunday business to cover the cost of overhead. But, if one opens, how long will the rest be able to hold out? So, they prefer the law that says competition can't open Sunday, either.

Linda

Indiana had that law back up to the 1960's, it was called the Blue Law. It was enacted because churches thought Sunday shopping was not proper. Part of that law was repealed, then only liquor stores were affected by the Blue Law. Finally the entire law was repealed because shoppers were crossing state lines to purchase liquor on Sunday.

As to the cost of electricity for EV charging in RV parks; Every RV park I've stayed at in the past 10 years has charged an extra $2-$3/night for 50A. If someone is so strapped for money that is a burden, they might want to reconsider that RV purchase.

EV charging would IMO be about the same situation.

[RV_]

3 hours ago, bruce t said:

Everyone of us has seen the pickups that have large generators and welders on the back that work on the gas and oil fields. (More often than not in the rig beside us and the one that leaves at 5am every morning). Imagine the irony of working in the fossil fuel industry and driving an EV pickup that doesn't use what you are working to get and needs charging every night.

Derek Replies: Wow did you watch any of the videos? I worked with my brother in law many times on his welding truck. The Lincoln welders then and now weighed under 300 pounds unless you can show me different. This one has a "295 lbs (134 kg)" scroll down to specifications here: https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en/products/K2706-2? If you watched the farm work day video above or not go to 20:16 in it and you will see that it had used only 8% of the battery using it all day and going up and down the mountain twice! 

I would guess it would need charging about as often as a gas or diesel truck would once  week or so but I can't say as I don't have my EV truck yet and no generator do you?

None of us EV owners charges every night anymore than you fuel up your gas or diesel for whatever you used for the day save exceptional trips. If you used 8% of your fuel would you stop and fuel up every night? Of course not. As your engineer buddy would say buddy in the video you posted and I watched would say, "That is a fact whether you like it or not. Common sense no?"

and I guess with their own generator they can charge themselves! Hang on a minute. Doesn't that need diesel to run the generator that you need to charge your EV so that we don't need fossil fuels? The generator that puts out more emissions to charge the EV than the fossil fuel truck it's replacing. A generator that would need to run longer to charge the EV than the trip to get to work in the ICE.

Derek Replies: Wow, none of that made sense to me, I charge at home, and yes the welder would run on fossil fuel as they all do in the field. Remember your saying, the right tool .  .  .

It's a crazy mixed up world with common sense and logic being the biggest victims.

Derek Replies: We agree there.

I'll repeat. I'm not against EVs. I'm against the mad rush to justify something that simply has no cost benefit at this point of time.

Derek Replies: Perhaps you didn't hear me the first times of many I said this. I am not justifying anything to you, I own one, are you telling me I charge every night? Or will when I get my Rivian?

If I tell you we don't need to charge every night and in fact no more often than we have to fuel the gas Subaru are you going to say I am not being straight?

Do you have proof the guys testing and reviewing any car or truck online you don't like are lying about them? I am not angry I am baffled and everyone here can watch those or not and see for themselves.

I have a lot of friends here too and they do appreciate my tech posts and if you are triggered by EVs just avoid my posts.

If I worked at a rig and drove in with a Rivian with a welder on the back I wouldn't care about peer pressure. I am not in grade school. From the folks I knew that were roughnecks one in five might have 'Tude, but the rest would want to drive it, race me, and find out if it was the first one they'd seen. They'd want to see the motors and the hidden storage and the tonneau.