Fuel prices

[Kirk W]

28 minutes ago, rickeieio said:

I've never heard of a "plug-in hybrid".  Don't hybrids have an engine to charge the batteries?

They do have a gasoline engine to supply electricity when needed but they also have a cord to allow the battery to be charged while parked, thus minimizing the amount of need for the gasoline engine. An example of this is the 2022 Ford Escape PHEV. The electric only range of these is typically between 30 & 50 miles which allows most owners to commute to and from work or make shopping trips without using any gasoline, but by using the gasoline hybrid power they have a range between fuel stops of between 350 & 600 miles. 

We have retired friends who own one and they typically buy gasoline less than once each month. 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Kirk W

[rickeieio]

It just goes to show, you're never too old to learn.

While we've never owned an EV or hybrid, I'd buy a Toyotas/Lexus hybrid.  When we bought our current car, (Lexus ES350) I was looking for a hybrid, but stumbled across this one, gently used and priced so that the additional cost of the hybrid could never pencil.  We don't put a lot of miles on, so $5 gas isn't a big deal.  

In times like this, people tend to spend thousands of $$ to save hundreds of $$.

[Chalkie]

On 3/10/2022 at 7:08 AM, rickeieio said:

Honestly, I believe the fuel prices we're seeing here in USA would be considered normal in some other parts of the world.  We're just whining because we've had it good for a long time.

You are correct. We have a good friend in Scotland and have always commiserated with her on what they have to pay for petrol. Yesterday I did some calculations and the price of diesel here in the Austin area is almost identical to the price in Aberdeenshire. 

[Blues]

I always log my diesel purchases into a spreadsheet, and just looked at it and was shocked to realize I was paying $4.60/gallon back in 2008, in three different states, and not one of them was California.  And I shop pretty hard for diesel--at one point, my destination was Denver, but I fueled up 200 miles short of there because Denver was going to be 25 cents/gallon more.

In today's money, that would be pushing $6.00/gallon.  So we haven't always had it good.

And then 7 months after the $4.60/gallon, it was $2.20/gallon about 250 miles west of Denver.   Back to having it good.

 

 

[franco-bolli]

I'd like to understand why the gas station shows $4.89 in the morning and then $5.05 in the afternoon, with no visits from a refueler.

Maybe they are on the underground pipeline🙄

[Kirk W]

10 hours ago, franco-bolli said:

I'd like to understand why the gas station shows $4.89 in the morning and then $5.05 in the afternoon, with no visits from a refueler.

Very few gasoline stations own the fuel in their tanks, but most are paying for the fuel in the tanks now when they get the next load, or after it is sold. For that reason at those stations the wholesaler is the one who sets the price of fuel at many stations. It is typical for the wholesaler to call all of the stations he supplies and tell them when to change the prices and how much. Wholesalers base the prices on what they expect to pay for their next load at the terminal, as most have little if any fuel in stock. There are also large independent chains now such as Love's that do buy the fuel and pick it up with their own trucks and with them the home office tells each station what they will charge. Even AAFES set their prices based on the next supply and not by what the current fuel in the tank cost them. AAFES(Army, Air Force Exchange Service) typically sells fuel on the military bases based on staying about 4¢ below the stations in the nearby community so their prices change pretty much in step with those of the franchised stations. 

Right or wrong, the main thing that causes changes in the prices we see at the stations is the price of a barrel of crude oil on the international marketplace. 

California estimated price breakdowns

March 7, 2022

	Branded	Unbranded
Distribution Costs, Marketing Costs and Profits	$0.36	$0.16
Crude Oil Costs	$2.87	$2.87
Refinery Cost and Profit	$1.12	$1.33
State Underground Storage Tank Fee	$0.02	$0.02
State and Local Tax	$0.11	$0.11
State Excise Tax	$0.511	$0.511
Federal Excise Tax	$0.184	$0.184
Retail Prices	$5.19	$5.19

[bruce t]

Many of the large companies buy fuel futures. Just read what happened to Flying J a few years back.

Fuel is all about supply and demand plus a lot of politics. Russia is now a convienient excuse. But look back a number of months and see what was already happening. The middle east countries are limiting supplies. The USA is going "green" while buying Russian oil. If anyone gives you a simple answer to the current prices then don't believe them. It's a very complicated mix of politics, profit and greed.

 

[pjstough]

The five year chart showing the number of operating oil drilling rigs in the USA shows the biggest reason for the high fuel prices we are seeing now.

https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_oil_rotary_rigs

When the number of operating drilling rigs drops by over 700 from November 2018 down to only 180 in August 2020 cant help but affect the future price of crude oil and therefore fuel prices. Fortunately, from the low in August 2020 there are now over 500 oil drilling rigs operating in the USA. When we get up close to to where we were in November 2018, prices will moderate substantially.

You cant produce oil if you are not drilling for it!

[rickeieio]

Drilling is just a piece of the puzzle.  Re-working older wells plays a pretty good part in our supply too.  I have a friend who's company (he's CFO) has done very well buying older, less productive wells and refurbishes them to be productive again.

And yes, buying and selling oil futures plays a big part in pricing and profitability of big and small companies alike.  That's one of the main reasons outfits like the TSD card works.  They pre-buy large quantities and pass some of the savings on to customers.  Trucking companies do the same.  When you see a major name truck at the pump, you can bet he's not paying the advertised price.  The fuel station is just a "provider", not the "seller".

Like all commodities, it's a complex, and interesting game.  I played it for years in grain, and made a few bucks.

[franco-bolli]

this is a snapshot of the US for Diesel I found today. I'm not sure what the date of the map is.

from GASBUDDY

Edited January 27, 2023 by franco-bolli
image removed, no longer relevant

[beemergary]

Old friend of mine just posted on facebook his court date and fine for filling up his truck and driving off without paying. His fine is $50.00 less that it woulda cost for paying for the gas.

[bruce t]

Oil price is back below, $100.00 a barrel. So next excuse!

[Kirk W]

9 hours ago, franco-bolli said:

this is a snapshot of the US for Diesel I found today. I'm not sure what the date of the map is.

from GASBUDDY

That link is interesting but it comes up in the gasoline version and you need to look on the right and change the "select fuel type" to diesel for it to show. It is interactive so should be fairly close to current. Gas Buddy relies on user reports for their prices so it does at times lag behind if prices are changing rapidly. 

9 hours ago, beemergary said:

Old friend of mine just posted on facebook his court date and fine for filling up his truck and driving off without paying.

You have some interesting friends! Does he live in TX? The news here reports a big surge in gasoline & diesel theft both from stations and by punching a hole in the tank of unattended vehicles. 

[trailertraveler]

On 3/14/2022 at 9:00 PM, franco-bolli said:

I'd like to understand why the gas station shows $4.89 in the morning and then $5.05 in the afternoon, with no visits from a refueler.

Another mystery to me is the sometimes large variation in price between stations located close together. Yesterday in the Daytona area, $4.99-5.19 seemed to be the going rate for diesel. Buc-ee's and Sam's Club were $4.35. I think that is about the largest price difference I have seen in one local area. 

Edited March 16, 2022 by trailertraveler

[Steven@146]

57 minutes ago, Kirk W said:

snip

You have some interesting friends! Does he live in TX? The news here reports a big surge in gasoline & diesel theft both from stations and by punching a hole in the tank of unattended vehicles. 

I saw that on our Austin news this morning. That would really suck, spend $200 on diesel and then have someone punch a hole in your tank and drain it. Wife said maybe we aught to get a locking door on our diesel tank, Me, I would rather have them syphon it out than punch a hole in the tank.

[Ray,IN]

12 hours ago, pjstough said:

The five year chart showing the number of operating oil drilling rigs in the USA shows the biggest reason for the high fuel prices we are seeing now.

https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_oil_rotary_rigs

When the number of operating drilling rigs drops by over 700 from November 2018 down to only 180 in August 2020 cant help but affect the future price of crude oil and therefore fuel prices. Fortunately, from the low in August 2020 there are now over 500 oil drilling rigs operating in the USA. When we get up close to to where we were in November 2018, prices will moderate substantially.

You cant produce oil if you are not drilling for it!

Right, the price of Brent crude dropped approx. $50/bbl this week.

[rickeieio]

There's a similar discussion in the HDT section.  Consensus seems to be no locking caps.

As to the drive off, if it's on facebook, it's gotta be true.  My wife saw the same post from one of her friends who seems to spend a lot of time there....

[Ray,IN]

18 minutes ago, rickeieio said:

There's a similar discussion in the HDT section.  Consensus seems to be no locking caps.

As to the drive off, if it's on facebook, it's gotta be true.  My wife saw the same post from one of her friends who seems to spend a lot of time there....

About 25 years ago a man filled his car in Indianapolis, paid at the pump with CC. A few miles down the street the city police stopped him and said he was reported as a drive-off. He had not selected to receive a receipt, so had no proof.  It took him several days and a couple thousand dollars to prove he had paid.

After reading about that I have ever since selected to get a receipt. Then in 2012 I was reported as a drive-off in MT. A deputy sheriff stopped me and asked for proof I had paid. I handed him the receipt, which he took to his patrol vehicle. He returned my receipt, and apologized for detaining us. i thanked him for his courtesy and doing a good job, then continued on my way.

As to locking fuel caps, our MH has locking access doors but no locking caps. IMO it's much better to have a busted access door than a cut fuel line at the tank.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Ray,IN

[Pat & Pete]

56 minutes ago, rickeieio said:

As to the drive off, 

When is the last time you found a gas pump that wasn't some kind of pay first .

I'm sure there must be a few around , but ???

[rickeieio]

There are some around here.  Old time stores where the person at the cash register likely knows the person at the pump.

As above, I always try to get a receipt.  Often, I'm unsuccessful, mostly due to lack of paper in the printer.  Some stations are notorious for that, because it leads to more in-store traffic and spur of the moment sales.  If it happens twice, I don't go back.

A few years ago, I got a call from the local sheriff, asking if we had a certain model car.  My wife had been a drive off.  He knew us, and I asked him to have a little fun with it.  Meanwhile, I went to the store and paid.  Yes, it was a fuel then go in and pay type place.  She still gets reminded of that day.

[Pappy Yokum]

11 hours ago, Pat & Pete said:

When is the last time you found a gas pump that wasn't some kind of pay first .

I'm sure there must be a few around , but ???

 

Not even "a few" in CA now,  but -

I recall pay *after* pumping when gas was 19 cents a gallon, but that was 61 years ago when I was 19 also.

😁

 

 

[bruce t]

No such thing as a pre pay in Australia. Always fill then go inside. So is it a cultural thing? My guess is that if you asked the average Australian to pay first they would simply drive up the road to the next station.

While in the USA we just accepted it as normal. But there's more to it than just the handful who drive away without paying.

[Kirk W]

8 hours ago, bruce t said:

So is it a cultural thing? My guess is that if you asked the average Australian to pay first they would simply drive up the road to the next station.

There are people here that would shop elsewhere if they couldn't pay at the pump because they don't want to waste time going inside, where in AU everyone has to go inside! Way more convenient here where we just pump our fuel and leave with no waiting in line just to pay for fuel. I do think that it is partly cultural, as it was in AU that I first saw a McDonald's that had an electronic kiosk to order food, rather than a person, which is rare here even today. 

I happen to know of several stations in small, rural communities where not only is it not pay at the pump or prepay, but they come out and pump for customers who are either handicapped or elderly. In Council Grove, KS there are at least 2 gasoline stations that do so and the grocery store there also still has someone carry your groceries to your car! 

[hemsteadc]

22 hours ago, Pat & Pete said:

When is the last time you found a gas pump that wasn't some kind of pay first .

Dual fill truck diesel pumps, for the most part, will not accept a regular credit card.  You must go inside, estimate how much you need,  and give them your firstborn.  I realize that's not "gas".

I paid $5.29 at Twin Arrows AZ yesterday.  Of course the pump cut me off at $100.  Grrr

Edited March 17, 2022 by hemsteadc

[bigjim]

Does AU stand for Austrailia. When I googled it I came up with Auburn University and such.

Bruce in my limited experience Austraila was different and probably still is to their credit. There are still plenty of places in the US that are trusting but out of necessity it has changed significantly over many years and understandingly so.

In 1968 I left my wallet at the hotel Metropole then later ordered a fairly pricey meal. Just before the food arrived I remembered I had no way to pay. On speaking to the owner/manager? I was treated so well I still speak of it to this day on occaision.