General Motors to stop producing gasoline and diesel cars by 2035 and only sell electric vehicles

[GlennWest]

The chevy Bolt replaced the Volt. Also how long to charge a Bolt on 120v outlet?

Edited February 2, 2021 by GlennWest

[RV_]

Let's not forget that the power to refine oil, build oil tankers, build liquid fuels underground diesel and gas tanks, the power to support all the gas vehicle maintenance and parts all will be going down as the BEV numbers rise. Once we get batteries that go, like the electric motors, a million miles without losing capacity and range (2025) it's over for ICE age cars.

Toyoda was put in charge of the electric cars for Toyota in 2016. He failed, tried to push hydrogen and then fuel cell cars he failed to produce. His solid state battery is said by most to not be there until 2005-2008.

Source: https://www.hybridcars.com/toyota-chief-heading-up-new-electric-car-division/

Nov 2020:

"Toyota has fallen behind most of the industry when it comes to all-electric vehicles, preferring instead to stick with now outdated but affordable hybrid technologies. The Toyota Prius is proof. There have even been some rumors claiming the Prius is on borrowed time because it's really no longer necessary since other models, like the Corolla and Camry, also offer hybrid variants. The ethos of the Prius no longer exists.

Toyota is aware of this and has a new plan to increase battery-electric vehicle product volume. Another area where Toyoda admits Tesla has helped to open their eyes is the potential to profit from things like software updates, renewable energy products (not flamethrowers), and the fact battery-electrics, in general, are profitable."

Source: https://carbuzz.com/news/toyota-doesnt-think-tesla-is-a-real-automaker

It is worth noting, though, that solid state batteries are known to not perform too well in cold temperatures and their long-term durability was also brought into question in the past. Toyota has not specifically mentioned these two aspects in any of its press releases on the matter, but these have certainly been at least two of the challenges the manufacturer faced in creating solid state batteries designed for longer term use

Toyota is currently a world leader in solid state battery technology and, according to Nikkei, and there’s also another Japanese company, Nissan, whose first EV powered by a solid state battery could arrive in 2028. Volkswagen is also reportedly close to0 - it could begin production of such batteries in 2025 thanks to a tie-up with an American startup.

Both manufacturers are being helped by the Japanese government that has put together a $19.2-billion fund to support companies doing research in this field. Solid state batteries still need lithium to work, so even with a complete shift form current battery tech to solid state, we won’t escape the need to keep mining this element. The Japanese government will also help companies with procuring lithium, given the fact that the element is in limited global supply.

As previously stated, the vehicle that Toyota will unveil which runs on this type of battery will only be a prototype. The actual production incarnation will have its market debut before the middle of the decade (possibly in 2023-2024).

Source: https://insideevs.com/news/460244/toyota-solid-state-battery-detailed/

And:
Dec 2020 - Now Toyota Has No Choice, But To Follow Tesla

"Now Toyota Has No Choice, But To Follow Tesla

In recent months Toyota and Honda executives have questioned if the world is ready for electric cars, but now they have no choice, but to follow Tesla as the Japanese government just announced a plan to ban cars with internal combustion engines by 2030."

Source:  https://www.torquenews.com/1/now-toyota-has-no-choice-follow-tesla

 

Musk never said that. He did say in Dec 2020, that we will have to use every clean power strategy in the next few decades:

 

"In an interview with Berlin-based publisher Axel Springer, hosted by Germany’s Bild am Sonntag, Musk said sourcing the energy necessary to power EVs would become the biggest obstacle over the next two decades. It’s actually something experts have been considering for a while and Germany, in particular, has had to confront as its own massive push toward sustainable energy turned out to be, well, largely unsustainable.

Despite advancing one of the most ambitious excursions into wind and solar shortly after the 21st century began as part of its Energiewende program, Germany’s emissions stagnated in 2009. By 2018, the nation was actually increasing its utilization of coal-fired plants to meet its growing energy needs and public opinion of renewables declined immensely. While part of this was blamed on the country shunning nuclear power, there’s a growing skepticism that the nation can actually maintain its current energy usage on the promise that wind and solar will become more efficient and cheaper in the coming years. Though even dissenters aren’t thrilled at the prospect of becoming increasingly dependent upon limited resources like coal or entertaining new concepts like national energy rationing.

Either way, the issue will be exacerbated by an influx of electric vehicles.

“It will take another 20 years for cars to be fully electric. It is like with phones, you cannot replace them all at once,” Musk said during a discussion held on the Bild website.

“We need sustainable energy,” he continued. “If something goes wrong we don’t stop producing CO2 and still need to transition ourselves toward sustainable energy production.”

But Elon cautioned that sometimes the wind doesn’t blow and the sun won’t shine on the vast solar arrays needed to harvest and store the necessary energy. He envisioned a future where most people had solar cells on their homes and businesses. Buildings would also utilize batteries connected to improved energy grids to help offset peak draw hours and reduce the presumably higher cost of electricity.

Musk also noted to his German audience that he did not oppose nuclear energy and went so far as to suggest it might even be necessary if we’re to meet tomorrow’s need for electricity — which he said would double by 2040."

Source: https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2020/12/elon-musk-says-evs-will-double-worlds-need-for-electricity/

 

[stevekk]

9 hours ago, GlennWest said:

The chevy Bolt replaced the Volt. Also how long to charge a Bolt on 120v outlet?

Bolts are 100% electric w/ 60 KW battery.  The 2020 Bolts have a 66 KW Battery.  

It charges up about 4 miles/ hour.  Slow I agree, but 4 x 24 hours = 96 .... almost 100 miles/ 24 hours.  This charging rate is just fine for me and I find no need to install a 220 volt/ faster charging station.  I  have had the car 2 years and purchased new.  Ball park $'s, the car was 40k, discounted about 10k, minus $7500 tax credit,  minus $2500 cash back from the state of Oregon = 20K TOTAL.  The 7500 tax credit has expired, the State cash back still exists.

I really love this car and is my main mode of travel and everyday of use.  Wave of the future.😀. There has been a recall on my car regarding the battery.  But the 2020's have no recall if you are tempted to buy one.

 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by stevekk

[GlennWest]

No. My Smart car still good for me. I was curious. Retired I might consider. And I can tow smart 4 down. Also I plan on running my place on solar. I will see how that does and if I have enough to use an ev.

Edited February 2, 2021 by GlennWest

[Barbaraok]

1 hour ago, GlennWest said:

No. My Smart car still good for me. I was curious. Retired I might consider. And I can tow smart 4 down. Also I plan on running my place on solar. I will see how that does and if I have enough to use an ev.

Why not start with a hybrid.  Ford makes several that can be towed four-down.

[GlennWest]

I will see how this year goes before changing cars. Had considered a hybrid to tow behind a small mh. If I continue to work after setting up Teton permanently had considered one. By then may just have a towable EV.

[RandyA]

16 hours ago, Barbaraok said:

Randy - were you the one that was at Kitty Hawk telling the Wright Brothers that there was no need for airplanes, theirs was too small to carry people, the fuel required to go coast-to-coast couldn't be contained in their airplane?   You assume everything will be similar to today.  No one knows what different technologies will be coming down the pike in 20 years.  Maybe we will each have a Mr. Fusion on our RVs, a hover upgrade and use our garbage to generate our energy requirements!  

And upgrading the national grid leads to JOBS.  Isn't that what everyone wants.   Yes, it may be different jobs, which means one needs to be willing to keep on learning all of their working lives. 

No, I wasn't born yet when the Wright brothers were at Kitty Hawk.  I also wasn't around when Henry Ford made the Model T.  But, I did grow up in Oak Ridge, TN in the shadow of the US Atomic Energy Commission, K-25, Y-12 and X-10 where many good ideas for future nuclear power generation were conceived.  My father was an engineer for "The Manhattan Project" - a top secret seemingly impossible goal.  But we had a plan and money not to mention a dire need to develop nuclear capabilities.

It appears to me that you did not fully understand what was in my post, or the underlying implications.  The old saying "a chain is only as strong as its weakest link" rings true in this all-electric car plan.  BTW, I did point out that technology would have to change tremendously to meet this lofty goal - along with public opinion against the systems needed to deliver the required power.  I only brought out some of the barriers that would need to be overcome to make it work - there are many more than I cited.  Not an insurmountable goal, but one that will take more than what is on the surface.  Not to toot my horn, but electricity, electronics, power generation and distribution were the focus of my lifelong career.  Vision has always been one of my more appreciated strong points.  My doing the seemingly impossible was commonplace knowledge among my peers.  I was (and remain) a strong advocate of strategic and realistic planning.  I finished up my career as a respected professor that taught Electrical Engineering at the University Level.  While I probably won't be alive to see this transition to zero carbon emission come to fruition, for the sake of my grandchildren and the damaging atmospheric changes to our planet from carbon emissions, I pray it will be fulfilled.  As far as the problems with our power grid, which still depend upon inefficient inductive transformers, sub-stations and mechanical (analog) switching networks that are susceptible to solar flares and terrorist intervention, it will take many trillions of dollars to bring it up to par for this new generation of electric vehicles - a band-aid approach will only work in the short term.  A total rebuild of the grid will become necessary.  We need to do the same to our highways, bridges, dams, waste water systems as well as other infrastructure systems at the same time.  We can add to this the concept that the Green New Deal advocates upgrading the energy efficiency of every home and building in the US to make them more energy efficient - a noble goal, but how and who pays for it and where is the workable plan?  I'm not against electric cars and near zero carbon elimination, I only question how to fulfill the plans for how to implement them.  It seems to me that the media has convinced a short sighted public that we can have a bucket of KFC before we even have the egg.  Too many people see it as simply plug and play within our existing infrastructure.  The prevailing mindset is to put a solar panel on your roof or a wind generator on a pole and bingo - you are there.  A plan of implementation with the needed funding has yet to be developed.  This is what leaves me scratching my head every time I hear or read about "the all electric car" scenario.  Electric cars may be attractively economical now with tax credits and avoidance of soaring fuel taxes, new battery and electric motor technology, along with moving the source of carbon pollution to a more distant location (out of our cities) - but that simply cannot last as the numbers rise.  GM is a profit motivated corporation.  They could care less about jobs.  If the public and government want electric cars they will not be left behind as stocks and profitability rise for other manufacturers of electric vehicles.  "Maybe" doesn't make it happen. Its "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead" - that is until you hit a torpedo.

Edited February 2, 2021 by RandyA

[GlennWest]

I see your point exactly. Reason I stated newer battery tec would have to be implemented before we can go all ev. Current batteries too long to charge. Now a complete overhaul of our utility service will work but that is a huge project. I also believe if America would upgrade their appliances, heat pump dryers, water heaters, mini splits, etc a tremendous load would come off of the power network. This could free up for EVs or at least add to it. America is very wasteful in their electricity. We went all led lighting, mini splits. We now never pull over 60 amps, 30 each leg.  And that much is only when cooking with electric. Average is 15ish amps. Before these upgrades we have thrown 50 amp main. We are just one couple. If everyone would be frugal with electricity, might just be enough.

Edited February 2, 2021 by GlennWest

[jcussen]

44 minutes ago, RandyA said:

No, I wasn't born yet when the Wright brothers were at Kitty Hawk.  I also wasn't around when Henry Ford made the Model T.  But, I did grow up in Oak Ridge, TN in the shadow of the US Atomic Energy Commission, K-25, Y-12 and X-10 where many good ideas for future nuclear power generation were conceived.  My father was an engineer for "The Manhattan Project" - a top secret seemingly impossible goal.  But we had a plan and money not to mention a dire need to develop nuclear capabilities.

It appears to me that you did not fully understand what was in my post, or the underlying implications.  The old saying "a chain is only as strong as its weakest link" rings true in this all-electric car plan.  BTW, I did point out that technology would have to change tremendously to meet this lofty goal - along with public opinion against the systems needed to deliver the required power.  I only brought out some of the barriers that would need to be overcome to make it work - there are many more than I cited.  Not an insurmountable goal, but one that will take more than what is on the surface.  Not to toot my horn, but electricity, electronics, power generation and distribution were the focus of my lifelong career.  Vision has always been one of my more appreciated strong points.  My doing the seemingly impossible was commonplace knowledge among my peers.  I was (and remain) a strong advocate of strategic and realistic planning.  I finished up my career as a respected professor that taught Electrical Engineering at the University Level.  While I probably won't be alive to see this transition to zero carbon emission come to fruition, for the sake of my grandchildren and the damaging atmospheric changes to our planet from carbon emissions, I pray it will be fulfilled.  As far as the problems with our power grid, which still depend upon inefficient inductive transformers, sub-stations and mechanical (analog) switching networks that are susceptible to solar flares and terrorist intervention, it will take many trillions of dollars to bring it up to par for this new generation of electric vehicles - a band-aid approach will only work in the short term.  A total rebuild of the grid will become necessary.  We need to do the same to our highways, bridges, dams, waste water systems as well as other infrastructure systems at the same time.  We can add to this the concept that the Green New Deal advocates upgrading the energy efficiency of every home and building in the US to make them more energy efficient - a noble goal, but how and who pays for it and where is the workable plan?  I'm not against electric cars and near zero carbon elimination, I only question how to fulfill the plans for how to implement them.  It seems to me that the media has convinced a short sighted public that we can have a bucket of KFC before we even have the egg.  Too many people see it as simply plug and play within our existing infrastructure.  The prevailing mindset is to put a solar panel on your roof or a wind generator on a pole and bingo - you are there.  A plan of implementation with the needed funding has yet to be developed.  This is what leaves me scratching my head every time I hear or read about "the all electric car" scenario.  Electric cars may be attractively economical now with tax credits and avoidance of soaring fuel taxes, new battery and electric motor technology, along with moving the source of carbon pollution to a more distant location (out of our cities) - but that simply cannot last as the numbers rise.  GM is a profit motivated corporation.  They could care less about jobs.  If the public and government want electric cars they will not be left behind as stocks and profitability rise for other manufacturers of electric vehicles.  "Maybe" doesn't make it happen. Its "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead" - that is until you hit a torpedo.

Well said, Randy

[Barbaraok]

Randy, the problem that I keep seeing is all the people who go "well, they tried something like that once ...", or "it can't be done because .....", "no one needs xyz....",  without ever realizing that what is proposed will change over time, as more and more development takes place.   You can't plan out where research and development will go, but NOT doing anything results in being unable to adapt to changes in our environment, to changes in the global economy, etc.   I don't understand the intransigence of people and the lack of imagination.  True, we probably won't all live long enough to see it, but does that mean one can't imagine, can't marvel at what is being developed, can't hope for a better world.   

I'm thinking about all of us that are getting mRNA vaccines for the Covid-19 virus, using a technology that is new, that does not follow the normal way of development using an attenuated or kill virus or a similar virus vector.  Should that not have been allowed because they didn't know where the research would take them.  Should tax dollars (over the past decade or so) not have gone to the research that helped advance the knowledge?  I remember Dick Tracy comics when I was a kid that showed him talking into his watch - just like my daughter now does!    

Yes it will take a lot of money to fix the power grid.  And more so, the LONGER WE PUT IT OFF.  That's the problem - the unwillingness to think ahead.    

[Joe Spiker]

14 minutes ago, Barbaraok said:

  

Yes it will take a lot of money to fix the power grid.  And more so, the LONGER WE PUT IT OFF.  That's the problem - the unwillingness to think ahead.    

And there you have it.  How much farther along would we have been here in the west if Phases 2 and 3 had been allowed to be completed on the Columbia and Snake River dams? AND how much more will it now take to upgrade the electrical grid that would have already been in place?  To many times the Minority has been allowed to stand in the way of what really needs to be done to insure a better future for America.  To much of the "Tail Wagging the Dog" mentality.

 

Joe

[jcussen]

How about instead of jumping off the ship and hoping we can swim to shore, we take the fossil fuels and income from them now, and invest in the infrastructure that will make the transition to green and all electric seamless? You can still make the deadline 2035, but we would be better prepared for it. Just saying we are going "green" and quashing the energy we have now, is not going to make it happen.

[GlennWest]

Oh my. You just killed my income with that statement. 

[jcussen]

Glen, there will be millions of high paying union jobs installing solar panels.🙄🙄

And if you believe that, I have a bridge I can sell you cheap.

[Barbaraok]

1 hour ago, jcussen said:

How about instead of jumping off the ship and hoping we can swim to shore, we take the fossil fuels and income from them now, and invest in the infrastructure that will make the transition to green and all electric seamless? You can still make the deadline 2035, but we would be better prepared for it. Just saying we are going "green" and quashing the energy we have now, is not going to make it happen.

And who said we weren't going to do that?  Where did everyone get the idea that everything was going to change overnight?  Coal is being phased out now, and other changes will come along as research progresses.  Upgrading the infrastructure is what is being discussed now because it has been put off for decades and is literally falling apart.  

 

[GlennWest]

1 hour ago, jcussen said:

Glen, there will be millions of high paying union jobs installing solar panels.🙄🙄

And if you believe that, I have a bridge I can sell you cheap.

Welders are not needed for solar. 

[jcussen]

6 minutes ago, Barbaraok said:

And who said we weren't going to do that?  Where did everyone get the idea that everything was going to change overnight?  Coal is being phased out now, and other changes will come along as research progresses.  Upgrading the infrastructure is what is being discussed now because it has been put off for decades and is literally falling apart.  

 

Think you missed the point, why not use the revenue supplied by selling and taxing fossil fuel now, to build the infrastructure. Can't see cancelling the pipeline and stopping new fracking on public lands helps. Where does all the money come from to build this new infrastructure, and build and install solar panels come from?  Fine to get rid of Fossil fuels and pollution, but why don't we use it to fund the $2T bill to get to the point where we don't need  fossil fuel  anymore. 

[jcussen]

31 minutes ago, GlennWest said:

Welders are not needed for solar. 

Yup, you will have to trade in your stinger and torch, and buy a couple of 3/8" wrenches to bolt the panels together, and of course, cut your income in half.😅😅

[NamMedevac 70]

Well we all know who we can thank for this garbage.

Edited February 2, 2021 by NamMedevac 70

[GlennWest]

12 minutes ago, jcussen said:

Yup, you will have to trade in your stinger and torch, and buy a couple of 3/8" wrenches to bolt the panels together, and of course, cut your income in half.😅😅

Actually I will retire

[Dutch_12078]

52 minutes ago, GlennWest said:

Welders are not needed for solar. 

My ex-son-in-law just finished a 3-month welding project at a new solar farm and is moving on to another one in a couple of weeks. The framework that supports the panels doesn't all bolt together.

[GlennWest]

Yes, but such welding most anyone can do. Simple mig. Specialized welding like I do pays well. Only used on high pressure lines or corrosive chemical lines. Now hydo electrical plants use steam and will pay well. Solar not.

[bigjim]

32 minutes ago, NamMedevac 70 said:

Well we all know who we can thank for this garbage.

Who

[bigjim]

20 minutes ago, Dutch_12078 said:

My ex-son-in-law just finished a 3-month welding project at a new solar farm and is moving on to another one in a couple of weeks. The framework that supports the panels doesn't all bolt together.

True plus the distribution system.

[bigjim]

16 minutes ago, GlennWest said:

Yes, but such welding most anyone can do. Simple mig. Specialized welding like I do pays well. Only used on high pressure lines or corrosive chemical lines. Now hydo electrical plants use steam and will pay well. Solar not.

I do not know about all aspects of solar and wind and other means of generation but there are plenty of other things that will be built using the electricity generated.  If you end up making less then you may have to adapt some way.  I hope it would all work out well for you but there are not always guarantees for the future.  I have been a member of three different union over my career life and was mostly glad I was but they were not a guaranee I would always have a job at a specific pay.  I had no choice but to adapt the best I could and I would think with your skills you can too. Sometimes in the interim I have had 3 jobs at a time to support my kids.  I got put out to pasture medically just as I turned 47 and I have saved more money living frugally and volunteering than I ever did when working.