General Motors to stop producing gasoline and diesel cars by 2035 and only sell electric vehicles

[Dutch_12078]

31 minutes ago, GlennWest said:

Yes, but such welding most anyone can do. Simple mig. Specialized welding like I do pays well. Only used on high pressure lines or corrosive chemical lines. Now hydo electrical plants use steam and will pay well. Solar not.

There are many industries that use high pressure piping and corrosive chemicals besides the petroleum industry. And there will likely be even more as "green" industries evolve.

[GlennWest]

32 minutes ago, bigjim said:

I do not know about all aspects of solar and wind and other means of generation but there are plenty of other things that will be built using the electricity generated.  If you end up making less then you may have to adapt some way.  I hope it would all work out well for you but there are not always guarantees for the future.  I have been a member of three different union over my career life and was mostly glad I was but they were not a guaranee I would always have a job at a specific pay.  I had no choice but to adapt the best I could and I would think with your skills you can too. Sometimes in the interim I have had 3 jobs at a time to support my kids.  I got put out to pasture medically just as I turned 47 and I have saved more money living frugally and volunteering than I ever did when working.

There are plants that needs specialized welding besides petroleum. Just not a lot of them. Oil drives my trade. I work in refineries 85%ish. The demand for us will go away. Wages will drop. Not a good future for us. Glad I am near retirement. 

[Dutch_12078]

16 minutes ago, GlennWest said:

There are plants that needs specialized welding besides petroleum. Just not a lot of them. Oil drives my trade. I work in refineries 85%ish. The demand for us will go away. Wages will drop. Not a good future for us. Glad I am near retirement. 

I don't expect oil refineries to go away any time soon. There is far too much infrastructure in place that will need to be supported for years to come as the transition to green energy takes over. Even if all the car companies go all electric by 2035, there will still be plenty of petroleum products needed in the market place. The plastics industry alone uses more petroleum than vehicles. And then of course, there's the wide variety of petroleum products used for lubrication and other low emission petroleum based products. I'm pretty sure the folks at Unilever are not in a panic about the petroleum supply for Vaseline drying up any time soon...

[GlennWest]

I work with plastics a lot. Like you stated still oil. Can you see a world with no plastic?

[Barbaraok]

2 hours ago, jcussen said:

Think you missed the point, why not use the revenue supplied by selling and taxing fossil fuel now, to build the infrastructure. Can't see cancelling the pipeline and stopping new fracking on public lands helps. Where does all the money come from to build this new infrastructure, and build and install solar panels come from?  Fine to get rid of Fossil fuels and pollution, but why don't we use it to fund the $2T bill to get to the point where we don't need  fossil fuel  anymore. 

Since the pipeline wasn’t really earning money for us, why have something that can damage the environment (all pipelines develop leaks with long runs) instead focus on other things.  The sooner we move off of oil, which is finite and really should be saved for pharmaceuticals, other important products, instead of just burning the limited amount left?  
 

Change is coming, one can wring their hands and let life overtake them, or one can figure out how to change with the times.  Everyone in coming years will have multiple jobs, most of whom we can not imagine right now.  We need to encourage those coming behind us to make sure they learn how to learn!

 

[GlennWest]

The oil is coming without the pipe line. Difference is it will be trucked. Pipe lines are less emissions. Lower cost. It was stupid to cancel it

[Dutch_12078]

33 minutes ago, GlennWest said:

I work with plastics a lot. Like you stated still oil. Can you see a world with no plastic?

I think you're missing the point. There are many uses for petroleum that don't cause, or at least cause as much, of the harmful greenhouse gases responsible for climate change acceleration. On the other hand, there have been efforts underway for years to develop non-petroleum based plastics that are showing promise.

Note the date of this article:

Bioengineers succeed in producing plastics without the use of fossil fuels

[Dutch_12078]

13 minutes ago, GlennWest said:

The oil is coming without the pipe line. Difference is it will be trucked. Pipe lines are less emissions. Lower cost. It was stupid to cancel it

Actually, trucking the highly corrosive tar sand oil would likely be much safer than pipeline transport. TC Energy's original Keystone tar sands pipeline has had a dozen or so leaks that have resulted in the spilling of hundreds of thousands of gallons of tar sand oil into the environment. I can't image why environmentalists would object to a tar sands pipeline running across hundreds of rivers, streams, and aquifers supplying 30% of the crop irrigation water used by US farmers. What could possibly go wrong... And yes, that's sarcasm.

What Is the Keystone XL Pipeline?

[GlennWest]

Trucks turn over and spill oil. Not necessarily their fault but it happens. Happens more than pipe leaks also. Pipe lines are the best way to transport oil. 

[RV_]

Solar is more than photovoltaic. Concentrated solar is very efficient, and needs a lot of specialized welding when using thermal oil and other carriers including water.

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/solar/solar-thermal-power-plants.php

Some diagrams, plenty of welding for trough systems:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=parabolic+trough+liquid+types&t=newext&atb=v247-1&iax=images&ia=images&iai=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.engineering.com%2FPortals%2F0%2FBlogFiles%2Ftlombardo%2FCSPTrough.JPG

 

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=parabolic+solar+troughs&t=newext&atb=v247-1&iax=images&ia=images

 

[GlennWest]

Ok I have never seen a pic or anything of one of those plants. All I have ever seen is just panels like we use. Using mirrors to  heat water up to steam is not what I was thinking of. Yes, steam lines are mostly chrome piping. 

[Dutch_12078]

12 hours ago, GlennWest said:

Trucks turn over and spill oil. Not necessarily their fault but it happens. Happens more than pipe leaks also. Pipe lines are the best way to transport oil. 

But trucks don't leak 100,000+ gallons from a single event, and rarely into environmentally sensitive areas. Pipelines can and do...

[GlennWest]

1 minute ago, Dutch_12078 said:

But trucks don't leak 100,000+ gallons from a single event, and rarely into environmentally sensitive areas. Pipelines can and do...

I read that sided article you posted. Reason leaks was faulty coating on pipe. Gas lines should not leak. The USA has hundreds of pipe lines in it. Leaks are rare.

[Barbaraok]

42 minutes ago, GlennWest said:

I read that sided article you posted. Reason leaks was faulty coating on pipe. Gas lines should not leak. The USA has hundreds of pipe lines in it. Leaks are rare.

https://www.denverpost.com/2021/02/01/colorado-farmers-oil-gas-pipeline-leak-dcp-lawsuit/

A simple Goggle search will show hundreds of leaks in the past few years.  

Wikipedia even has a page of leaks through 2018.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pipeline_accidents

[orca]

I can only think of one instance where a pipeline took human lives and that was somewhere in Africa where they drilled holes in a gasoline pipeline to steal gas and it blew up.

There has been many accidents on crowded freeways involving tanker trucks where people have died. If you want to tout damage to the environment how about the millions of gallons of that oil that is burnt in the engines of those very same tanker trucks running all over the country?

Rail cars are no safer, although they transport more crude per gallon of diesel fuel used compared to tanker trucks.  There is a town in Quebec called Lac Megant where a runaway tanker train overturned and burned half the town and killed 59 people!

The tar sands is the worlds largest oil spill that has been dumping crude oil into the environment for eons before the internal combustion engine was invented!  It is now the worlds largest environmental cleanup!

If you want to talk safety, I will take pipelines hands down!

[mptjelgin]

3 minutes ago, orca said:

If you want to talk safety, I will take pipelines hands down!

I agree. For transportation of oil or refined fuels, pipelines are the safest way to move large quantities long distances.  Nothing is perfect, but compared to moving the same volume of material by rail or truck, pipelines are safer, more reliable, and less expensive. 

[bigjim]

Maybe leaks are rare but they happen and it really doesn't matter why if they cause enough damage or loss of life. A lot of this I really did not pay much attention to. The first one I was really cognizant of was I believe in the country sort of neat Luling Tx.  An AF senior Nco and his wife topped a hill and started down to a lower spot and boom. Instant death.  I think most gas will settle into a low spot like a creekbed.   Pipeline leak caused it. Really rural area.   Same thing happened to 2 teenagers some where near the Trinity River in rural Kaufman County east of Dallas.  My point is lets not sugar coat it.  No questions pipelines are necessary and may be better in most cases but litterally nothing is infallible.  One key issue is maint. and everyone always promises to maintain but down the road it falls of in many cases and of course we don't always want to spend the money to have diligent inspectors. And we sure don't want those pesky government inspectors.

[jcussen]

We import 3.7 million barrels of oil a day from Canada. Of course it will drop in the new all electric America, but we now heat over 60% of our homes with oil or natural gas. Something electricity will not be able to replace for quite a while. Pipelines are over 4.5 times safer than transporting by rail and trucks. The all solar and wind turbine  goal is fine, but we will be reliant on natural gas and oil for a long time, Piping in oil from Canada is lot cheaper than importing it in from other oil producing areas.

 

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/safety-in-the-transportation-of-oil-and-gas-pipelines-or-rail-rev2.pdf

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRIMUSCA2&f=M

https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/5e6f425a-e1c7-441a-9aa0-64890e4ecade/resource/b7080f88-f748-45f0-8294-81d32a7a834c/download/13-Explaining-oil-price-differentials-form

Edited February 3, 2021 by jcussen

[GlennWest]

A thought. What can substitute an oil fired or gas heater up in northern states? I know of nothing. Could not afford electric strips. Heat pumps won't work in those temps. I just don't see oil and gas going away. Well been researching heat pumps in extreme northern states and they have models with proper insulation that will work up there. I leaned something.

Edited February 3, 2021 by GlennWest

[orca]

When i built my house in a rural area the only option was electric forced air central heating. At the time electric was just slightly above natural gas in terms of cost but i thought i was doing my part to "save the planet".  Ha! That was then and this is now where the cost to heat the house by electric is probably 30% more than natural gas. If i had it to do over again i would say to heck with the planet i want more money for my retirement!

[GlennWest]

5 minutes ago, orca said:

When i built my house in a rural area the only option was electric forced air central heating. At the time electric was just slightly above natural gas in terms of cost but i thought i was doing my part to "save the planet".  Ha! That was then and this is now where the cost to heat the house by electric is probably 30% more than natural gas. If i had it to do over again i would say to heck with the planet i want more money for my retirement

Where are you located? Heating is easy where we are. Northern states not so.

[Barbaraok]

1 hour ago, jcussen said:

We import 3.7 million barrels of oil a day from Canada. Of course it will drop in the new all electric America, but we now heat over 60% of our homes with oil or natural gas. Something electricity will not be able to replace for quite a while.   ........

Did anyone say it will happen all at once?  

How does everyone jump from aspirational goals that we works towards to cries about it can't be done tomorrow?  Glad JFK didn't listen to the naysayers that said we couldn't put men on the moon because our rockets always blew up.  We got better at it!  And the benefits of doing that effect EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of our lives today.

[GlennWest]

6 minutes ago, Barbaraok said:

Did anyone say it will happen all at once?  

How does everyone jump from aspirational goals that we works towards to cries about it can't be done tomorrow?  Glad JFK didn't listen to the naysayers that said we couldn't put men on the moon because our rockets always blew up.  We got better at it!  And the benefits of doing that effect EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of our lives today.

I agree with you but it seems with the current administration that they think this is going to happen quickly. That I believe is what fueling this. 

[jcussen]

3 minutes ago, Barbaraok said:

Did anyone say it will happen all at once?  

How does everyone jump from aspirational goals that we works towards to cries about it can't be done tomorrow?  Glad JFK didn't listen to the naysayers that said we couldn't put men on the moon because our rockets always blew up.  We got better at it!  And the benefits of doing that effect EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of our lives today.

Aspirational goals are fine, and we can work toward a true fossil fuel free world, but we must face today's reality. It took time and a lot of blown up rockets before we were successful in going to the moon. It will take time to reach the desired goals, but until we get there, we also need to handle today's problems. No magic bullets here, will take time. No matter how much you want it, it can't be done tomorrow.

[Barbaraok]

47 minutes ago, jcussen said:

Aspirational goals are fine, and we can work toward a true fossil fuel free world, but we must face today's reality. It took time and a lot of blown up rockets before we were successful in going to the moon. It will take time to reach the desired goals, but until we get there, we also need to handle today's problems. No magic bullets here, will take time. No matter how much you want it, it can't be done tomorrow.

OK, who said anything about it happening tomorrow?  Only thing I have seen in this whole thread is about it can’t happen because we don’t have everything already in place !