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General Motors to stop producing gasoline and diesel cars by 2035 and only sell electric vehicles


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Gas power plants will support some of us. Still though gasoline will be around untill new battery technology comes. Most people don't fathom the amount of workers there is in the oil industry. 

2003 Teton Grand Freedom towed with 2006 Freightliner Century 120 across the beautiful USA welding pipe.https://photos.app.goo.gl/O32ZjgzSzgK7LAyt1

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And most people probably don't fathom the amount of workers that will be needed to support the growing climate change related industries. As others have said, those that make the effort to support the transition through furthering their education will likely do well.

Dutch
2001 GBM Landau 34' Class A
F-53 Chassis, Triton V10, TST TPMS
2011 Toyota RAV4 4WD/Remco pump
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2 hours ago, GlennWest said:

But doesn't natural gas come from oil? I helped build several natural gas power plants. Two just in Virginia.

Actually no.  Lots of municipal landfills are running small generation unit from the methane produced by decaying organic material, ie garbage!   Willow Farms is a hydroponic vegetable growing enterprise at on of the big landfalls near Detroit producing lettuce, etc, for restaurants.  

Barb & Dave O'Keeffe
2002 Alpine 36 MDDS (Figment II), 2018 Ford C-Max HYBRID
Blog: http://www.barbanddave.net
SPK# 90761 FMCA #F337834

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3 hours ago, GlennWest said:

But doesn't natural gas come from oil? I helped build several natural gas power plants. Two just in Virginia.

Actually most comes from fracking and horizontal drilling. We produce all we need, but this could change in the near future.

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/natural-gas/where-our-natural-gas-comes-from.php

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49 minutes ago, jcussen said:

Actually most comes from fracking and horizontal drilling. We produce all we need, but this could change in the near future.

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/natural-gas/where-our-natural-gas-comes-from.php

That's what I have always heard. Now methane is different. But can't argue with liberals 

2003 Teton Grand Freedom towed with 2006 Freightliner Century 120 across the beautiful USA welding pipe.https://photos.app.goo.gl/O32ZjgzSzgK7LAyt1

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A little research finds that the ~95 million cows in the US emit 250-500 liters of methane per day, mostly from belching. The ~330 million US human population emits an average of 0.5 liters per day per person, mostly from flatulence. Obviously those numbers show that cows "win" the methane production race by a large number, even just using their lowest emission number. 

Dutch
2001 GBM Landau 34' Class A
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2011 Toyota RAV4 4WD/Remco pump
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And an often overlooked source of reliable power is hydroelectric from the Mississippi River and possibly other rivers.  Not talking about dams but utilizing water turbines.  There is tremendous energy potential with the amount of water flow in the Miss.  Every town along the river could probably be energy independent if the water flow would be utilized.  Also tidal energy could be utilized along the coasts.

Back on the road again in a 2011 Roadtrek 210P

2011 Tahoe 4x4, 2006 Lexus GX470, 2018 Ranger XP1000, 2013 RZR 570LE
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1 hour ago, folivier said:

And an often overlooked source of reliable power is hydroelectric from the Mississippi River and possibly other rivers.  Not talking about dams but utilizing water turbines.  There is tremendous energy potential with the amount of water flow in the Miss.  Every town along the river could probably be energy independent if the water flow would be utilized.  Also tidal energy could be utilized along the coasts.

I was researching this morning. Hydroelectric is not used much in America. Very low percentage. They have a short life span also.

2003 Teton Grand Freedom towed with 2006 Freightliner Century 120 across the beautiful USA welding pipe.https://photos.app.goo.gl/O32ZjgzSzgK7LAyt1

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I wondered how long it would take for this discussion to come around to Hydro power.  Something that is way under utilized in my opinion.  That said we can truly thank both the Indians and the Tree Huggers in the PNW for the fact that we don't have more power generation capacity.  ALL of the dams on the Columbia and Snake Rivers were designed to be built in 3 phases.  The 2nd and 3rd phase was primarily to add more Electric Generation capacity.  However thanks to the groups mentioned above none of the dams has had even the 2nd phase completed.

Also in KOMIEfornia it was once proposed to put power generation stations along the many hundreds of miles of canals.  Think of how much extra power that would have generated.  Hundreds of miles of canals with water flowing at an average speed of 22 mph could have made a whole lot of power.  Again the Tree Huggers put a stop to that proposal. 

Now folks want us to all go to electric vehicles, which may or may not be a good thing.  Not an arguement I care to get into.  However I can say that the infra structure to support something like that is way behind the curve of it being feasible at this time.  I make that statement from having seen EV's lined up waiting for their turn to charge at a Telsa charging station on the Oregon Coast last January.  And from several trips since nothing has changed to improve that little detail.

 

Joe

 

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Joe, you have no idea of the problems a lot of the smaller dams created in the PNW and the havoc that resulted to the salmon and steelhead populations.  Lots of smaller ones that didn't really produce much power are being taken out which is a good thing for the fish runs.   Wanting to preserve what is best about the PNW is a good thing.   

Barb & Dave O'Keeffe
2002 Alpine 36 MDDS (Figment II), 2018 Ford C-Max HYBRID
Blog: http://www.barbanddave.net
SPK# 90761 FMCA #F337834

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23 hours ago, Dutch_12078 said:

"Almost All New US Power Plants Built in 2021 Will Be Carbon-Free"

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/almost-all-new-us-power-plants-in-2021-will-be-carbon-free

 

How do you reconcile this with having to double our existing electrical generation and distribution capacity to support converting to electric transportation?  Transportation currently uses 27% of our total energy supply, electricity provides 22% of our energy.  Converting transportation from oil to electricity means doubling the size of our electrical generation and distrubution infrastructure, in effect making the investment we made over the past 100+ years again in the next 15-20 years as petroleum fueled vehicles are phased out.

I've not heard much discussion about this in all of the electric car hoopla.   Solar and wind power may be part of the solution, but most electric car charging will take place at night while the car is sitting idle and wind and solar energy is largely non-existant, so you're just switching the point of consumption from individual cars to central power plants.  Hydro generation is currently maxed out, so these new power plants will have to be coal or petroleum fueled unless we get a breakthrough in fusion power along with public acceptance of this new centralized energy.  Lighting a miniature sun in every power plant?  And you thought harnessing atomic bomb power was dangerous.

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Lou, you seem to assume that nothing is going to change, new ways of generating power won't come about, etc.  Aspirational goals are there to get people thinking about how to keep up, what is possible, how to make something new happen.  Change is always with us.  That's why no one ones a team of horses to pull their wagon as they travel.  Things CHANGE.     The electrical power grid needs a complete redo - that's jobs.  Every major city needs to upgrade water and wastes systems, that's jobs.  Change brings new possibilities.  Where's your sense of imagination, of wonder, what else will change before we die?  And now that everyone knows that Pandemics are actually something to avoid, think of all of the medical advancement, all of the effort to identify areas where new virus jumps will come from and putting in the effort to identify and, hopefully, develop appropriate therapies to manage should the virus jump.  Again, new possibilities, new industries, new paths for those coming behind us to explore, master, create, and grow.   

Barb & Dave O'Keeffe
2002 Alpine 36 MDDS (Figment II), 2018 Ford C-Max HYBRID
Blog: http://www.barbanddave.net
SPK# 90761 FMCA #F337834

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12 minutes ago, Barbaraok said:

Lou, you seem to assume that nothing is going to change, new ways of generating power won't come about, etc.  Aspirational goals are there to get people thinking about how to keep up, what is possible, how to make something new happen.  Change is always with us.  That's why no one ones a team of horses to pull their wagon as they travel.  Things CHANGE.     The electrical power grid needs a complete redo - that's jobs.  Every major city needs to upgrade water and wastes systems, that's jobs.  Change brings new possibilities.  Where's your sense of imagination, of wonder, what else will change before we die?  And now that everyone knows that Pandemics are actually something to avoid, think of all of the medical advancement, all of the effort to identify areas where new virus jumps will come from and putting in the effort to identify and, hopefully, develop appropriate therapies to manage should the virus jump.  Again, new possibilities, new industries, new paths for those coming behind us to explore, master, create, and grow.   

I have no problem with change, new solutions, etc.  What I do worry about is committing to change without considering the full costs of new paradigm.  Changing from horse drawn transportation to automobiles put a few buggy whip manufacturers out of business.  Doubling the size and cost of our electrical infrastructure to do away with petroleum based transportation is whole different proposition with impacts that have been largely ignored so far.

Edited by Lou Schneider
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There is certainly change in the usage of electricity.  A simple example is the power consumption of an led vs an incandescent. We are adapting equipment constantly to be more efficient.  I kind of think that may play a big part.  I'm not big on adapting my old self to change but I recognize it is happening and as much out of necessity as anything else.  I am concerned about committing to something that may not work but the alternative could be pretty dire. 

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1 hour ago, Lou Schneider said:

How do you reconcile this with having to double our existing electrical generation and distribution capacity to support converting to electric transportation?  Transportation currently uses 27% of our total energy supply, electricity provides 22% of our energy.  Converting transportation from oil to electricity means doubling the size of our electrical generation and distrubution infrastructure, in effect making the investment we made over the past 100+ years again in the next 15-20 years as petroleum fueled vehicles are phased out.

I've not heard much discussion about this in all of the electric car hoopla.   Solar and wind power may be part of the solution, but most electric car charging will take place at night while the car is sitting idle and wind and solar energy is largely non-existant, so you're just switching the point of consumption from individual cars to central power plants.  Hydro generation is currently maxed out, so these new power plants will have to be coal or petroleum fueled unless we get a breakthrough in fusion power along with public acceptance of this new centralized energy.  Lighting a miniature sun in every power plant?  And you thought harnessing atomic bomb power was dangerous.

I mentioned in another post that there were three future pumped storage generating facilities in process in upstate NY. I don't know if you're familiar with the pumped storage concept, but basically off peak power is used to pump water up into a holding pond for release back down to generator turbines as needed during peak power usage. They're basically "hydro-batteries" that can be used to store excess output to support wind and solar generation. In NY at least, much of that excess off peak capacity comes from hydro generation from sites like the Niagara Power Project and other large scale hydro plants. The NY Power Authority, a public benefit corporation and the largest state public utility in the country, gets about 70% of it's power from hydro, reselling it to electric companies that are required to sell it to their customers at cost.

How do I reconcile EV charging with our current generating capacity? I don't. Nor would I try as there are too many unknowns coming along in battery technology and charging that may change the equation significantly.

Dutch
2001 GBM Landau 34' Class A
F-53 Chassis, Triton V10, TST TPMS
2011 Toyota RAV4 4WD/Remco pump
ReadyBrute Elite tow bar/brake system

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Don't worry about details just do it and hope all works out isn't my preference either.  I like the change but I also like to plan and do it right.  It seems we could determine the costs and find a way to make the energy needed before we blindly jump.  And figure out how to pay for it.

Randy

2001 Volvo VNL 42 Cummins ISX Autoshift

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Toyota's CEO Akio Toyoda agrees with Elon Musk that we don't have enough electricity to power a wholesale conversion to electric vehicles:

https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/bryan-preston/2020/12/21/toyota-ceo-agrees-with-elon-musk-we-dont-have-enough-electricity-to-electrify-all-the-cars-n1222999

"... the CEO's disdain for EVs boils down to his belief they'll ruin businesses, require massive investments, and even emit more carbon dioxide than combustion-engined vehicles. "The current business model of the car industry is going to collapse," he said. "The more EVs we build, the worse carbon dioxide gets… When politicians are out there saying, 'Let's get rid of all cars using gasoline,' do they understand this?"
 

Edited by Lou Schneider
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3 hours ago, Randyretired said:

Don't worry about details just do it and hope all works out isn't my preference either.  I like the change but I also like to plan and do it right.  It seems we could determine the costs and find a way to make the energy needed before we blindly jump.  And figure out how to pay for it.

Don’t develop cars because we don’t have enough roads, don’t develop airplanes because we don’t have airports, don’t do anything because we can’t imagine where it will go or what will happen!  Good thing Ford, Edison, Tesla, Wright Brothers didn’t listen to the luddites of their times.  
 

Barb & Dave O'Keeffe
2002 Alpine 36 MDDS (Figment II), 2018 Ford C-Max HYBRID
Blog: http://www.barbanddave.net
SPK# 90761 FMCA #F337834

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4 minutes ago, Barbaraok said:

Don’t develop cars because we don’t have enough roads, don’t develop airplanes because we don’t have airports, don’t do anything because we can’t imagine where it will go or what will happen!  Good thing Ford, Edison, Tesla, Wright Brothers didn’t listen to the luddites of their times.  
 

Just buy RV's or better yet just build an RV for every person it will create jobs.  Don't need a plan to maximize our new technology just jump.  No where did I say stop, I said plan for it.  Think ahead and make it work.  Building out the power grid is not an overnight job.  I don't care to need to choose between charging my car or cooking dinner.   We need only to to look at CA to see where we are headed.  Don't try to change my words to mean stopping technology just because you don't care about the details.

Randy

2001 Volvo VNL 42 Cummins ISX Autoshift

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14 hours ago, Barbaraok said:

Joe, you have no idea of the problems a lot of the smaller dams created in the PNW and the havoc that resulted to the salmon and steelhead populations.  Lots of smaller ones that didn't really produce much power are being taken out which is a good thing for the fish runs.   Wanting to preserve what is best about the PNW is a good thing.   

Barb,

Once again you change what was said to fit your arguement. I said nothing about the smaller dams, only the large dams on the Columbia and Snake rivers.  Had those, I believe 9, dams been allowed to be completed we would have vastly more electricity available now.  That would have also spurred upgrades to the power grid to handle it.  We would be much farther along the road that everyone seems to want us to take.  I don't argue that a lot of the smaller dams did a lot of damage to many things, but I've also watched as certain people continue to over fish the Salmon runs and blame the Sport Fishermen for ruining the runs.  These are arguements for a different time though.

 

Joe 

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