"Floaters"

[phoenix2013]

All the discussion of adding in the front compartment, or front closet, boxes of ammo, lead, water, generators, cement blocks, or granny's gold jewelry, to increase the pin-weight is interesting but I would add a cautionary note. Look at the way New Horizon transitions from the fifth frame into the forward compartment and the fifth wheel area (the beam and tube sizes, the gussets, etc.).

Now look what the "rest of the industry does.

I don't know for fact, but I would take a pretty good wager that DRV's frames come from Lippert and their "Gold Standard" is more likely what you see in the second picture. Look at the arrows those are the only areas of attachment of the frontal area containing the bedroom, front closet, front compartment and pinbox to the rest of the fifth. How much weight you think you can add to the front compartments before these welds say "good bye" and that providing these are good welds not the two weeks welding apprentice welds, the industry standard.

  

[ALLOY]

These DRV frames look to have the Lippert round bar cross members but an improved connection between the frame rails and vertical HSS posts.

 

 

I've worked on HSS frames that have water trapped inside. Urethane caulking around any opening or doubler (slide openings) plates will help to keep moisture out of the HSS  Water soluble cutting oil inside the tube will keep the rust down.

[Jemstone]

My take away from this discussion is that there is no trailer maker, save the two custom trailer makers mentioned, that now build quality units.  I have had nothing but grief from Lippert components and they are, by acquisition and lower pricing for lower quality parts, becoming the major supplier to most trailer makers.  I hope I'm wrong on this, but it seems to me that most of the quality builders have gone under or been purchased by one of the two big RV companies and have been subject to cost cutting with cheaper components and less quality control.  If Lippert is supplying DRV's frames that is bad news.  The Lippert spring suspension on a new fiver we once owned collapsed within a year and draped over the two axels.  I would love to stand corrected and find some company like Carriage was that now makes good quality fivers. 

[GlennWest]

Lippert has always built DRV frames. It is built to DRV standard though. We loaded our 06 Mobile Suites fairly heavy. No problems there. We had plenty of pin weight also. 

[Jack Mayer]

The only manufacturer that I know of that has not had "frame issues" is Spacecraft. And if you ever looked at their frames you would understand why. 

Like many things, frames are a "continuum" of quality. You want to match the capability (quality) to the load and not overengineer it. For cost, weight and balance reasons. You also have to do it "right" and not just throw steel at it. Because you could end up with a very heavy trailer that still had structural issues. 

As far as pin weight, I'd recommend in the 20-25% range. But on some pickups that will not work out well. On our heavy trucks that is no issue. 

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

I'll load this one to get the pin weight we need.... and since we already have our insurance in hand with the PURCHASE PRICE GUARANTEE... if we break this one then we'll just have to get another.....

An interesting observation I've had as well.  In several of Jack's video's about NH, he mentions that at the weight and length the NH is, that they build on an I-beam with box tube underneath, with bracing as needed.  DRV, on the other hand, take their existing 3 tube frame and just make it longer.  There is a point of length that the tube cannot support itself.  If this was fiberglass or composite material I could tell you what the capabilities and properties would be, but I don't do steel  It's possible that this is also why DRV engineers their axle positions the way they do.

[Refuzn-To-Grow-Up]

8 hours ago, J-T said:

These DRV frames look to have the Lippert round bar cross members but an improved connection between the frame rails and vertical HSS posts.

 

 

I've worked on HSS frames that have water trapped inside. Urethane caulking around any opening or doubler (slide openings) plates will help to keep moisture out of the HSS  Water soluble cutting oil inside the tube will keep the rust down.

This "promotional" video shows the welds on DRV's frames.  If you pause the video and look closely at the welds, you will see what some welders sarcastically call "bird sh*t beads."  This is a label given to welding beads where the welds look like a bird literally sh*t on the metal.  If you do a little research (youtube will work), you can see what the welding bead of a skilled mig welder looks like.  And then, you can compare that bead to welding beads in the video.  Are ugly bird sh*t welds as strong as beautifully done welds?  I leave that to the experts.  I know that a skilled welder, will lay down a bead that joins the base metals, has good penetration and the bead is uniform in depth and width, with no voids.  And, the bead is beautiful, looking like a stack of dimes.

[noteven]

My ancient Carriage C-Force weighs 3000lbs on the pin when the tri axle group weighs 14,000lbs. 21 point something %?

[Dollytrolley]

Once upon a time I "inherited" a French built helicopter and it was soooo ugly, had soooo much power and.........was "cobbled" together from miles of small chrome molly tubing  with welds that were more than perfect.........so.......try this for quality control.......at EVERY tube joint a small hole was drilled...........when the last weld was complete a valve was opened and 100 psi of nitrogen was injected and a gauge was inspected EVERY time the pilot did a walk-by..........

In the few years I was around "Old-Ugly" the gauge was always in the green and this rig did not get easy duty.........frame NOT cobbled together by RV welders.......

Maybe we just need to "inflate" the trailer frames and not worry about cracks or poor welds.......

 

Drive on........(dont operate at low pressure)

[noteven]

can you see the interweb uproar over Lippert's "New Inflatable Frame" ?

[Ronbo]

There is so much negative said about Lippert frames. The blame belongs with the rv manufacturer. Lippert builds the frames to the manufacturer specs. The manufacturer can spec whatever they want.  One is a Lippert frame but is         I-beam all the way to the front. I am 3000 lbs over max weight just to get my pin weight up to 15%. That is a manufacturer fault. If I only knew than what I know now. I have ideas on how to fix it without moving the axles towards the rear. I have seen what the frames of my rv looks like bare and I am not concerned about being overweight. It is a solidly built frame because it was specked that way.

[Lou Schneider]

2 hours ago, Jack Mayer said:

The only manufacturer that I know of that has not had "frame issues" is Spacecraft. And if you ever looked at their frames you would understand why. 

How about Northwood Mfg?  

[Jack Mayer]

Just now, Lou Schneider said:

How about Northwood Mfg?  

Lou, I'm sure there are manufacturers that have not had issues.....just none I know of. I'm not familiar with all manufacturers out there. I do know that Northwood has had sidewall issues and that is usually related to frames. But I'm not the manufacturer so could not say for sure.  The point is that frame issues are very common. Not on ever sample of every rig, but push a rig to extremes and they start to show up. And sometimes not even extremes.

[phoenix2013]

A "memorable" fifth I owned, by Cobra manufacturing.

Bumper fell off on an interstate.

Upon examination everybody agreed I was lucky that the "bird s**t welds"  attaching it to the frame held on as long as they did.

It had electric brakes, three out if four were not even close to drums (never adjusted), one that was burnt to a crisp.

On the same trip, yes, the shackle gave.

Good thing I needed to relieve myself and pulled over into parking area and went inside, tire came in contact with the floor and the fifth was just about ready to go up in smoke.

The rest of the 1,400 mile trip was finished with a block between the axle and a frame.

The rig was eventually totaled when bunch of bird s**t weld gave in the overhang area around the pin box.

The President bankrupted the company and then bought it's assets at an auction, why to become President of the Forest River.

[Refuzn-To-Grow-Up]

What astounds me with these bird sh*t welds is that mig (unlike, tig, stick and gas) welding is the EASIEST welding process to learn.  In my past life, I supervised factory welders who (and I am not being ugly) were NOT the brightest bulbs in the box.  But with proper instructions and practice, they could lay down very good welds.

What is becoming scary, to me, is that the 5'er are becoming larger and heavier (by customer demand), the loads on the frame are becoming greater and the quality of the welds are now becoming more important. 

Sorry for the rant.  I will retreat to my rabbit hole.

[bja1234]

Each individual Spacecraft Frame is engineered by a Licensed Engineer.  Not so in most places.

[jollyrogr]

5 hours ago, Ronbo said:

There is so much negative said about Lippert frames. The blame belongs with the rv manufacturer. Lippert builds the frames to the manufacturer specs. The manufacturer can spec whatever they want.  One is a Lippert frame but is         I-beam all the way to the front. I am 3000 lbs over max weight just to get my pin weight up to 15%. That is a manufacturer fault. If I only knew than what I know now. I have ideas on how to fix it without moving the axles towards the rear. I have seen what the frames of my rv looks like bare and I am not concerned about being overweight. It is a solidly built frame because it was specked that way.

That may be, but if the frame welds are full of porosity, that's Lippert's fault not the coach maker.  Although the coach maker should then reject the poor quality.  But they don't.

Guess this is what happens when you mix Amish and electricity.  Bad welds

[ALLOY]

4 hours ago, Lou Schneider said:

How about Northwood Mfg?  

I think Silver Fox is a really well built trailer for the $$$ but of trailers I looked 1 of them had a bird walk over some of the steel welding and another a bird poke holes in the alum welds.  Put enough of a question in my mind that we started to think about the $$$ we could save/spend by taking a used trailer and making it better than new.  

 

[ALLOY]

4 hours ago, phoenix2013 said:

 

The leaf packs on out 7000lbs axles where 3000lbs each.........installing 3,500lb springs lifted the trailer 1"

 

[phoenix2013]

The axles and springs on this trailer were fine for its weight and the tire was nowhere near the floor when the spring was properly hung. The problem was an absolute garbage installed as shackles to hold the spring. The block of wood allowed me to limp to the National Escapee Rally where the situation was rectified by fine folks from Dexter Axle.

All shackles all around were replaced and there was another ready to go on the opposite side. Dexter Rep and Dexter technician were disgusted, their shackles, greaseable, more robust, were available to all manufacturers at the time but shunned because they were, more expensive. The garbage on my trailer probably was OK for the one week a year duty, unfortunately I was up to about 4 weeks per year by then and about 5,000 miles, the shackles quit after three years.

[JPL]

I am currently going through a issue with the leaf springs on a 2017 Mesa Ridge. I noticed that the springs were starting to go in the negative direction. I took pictures, Emailed the dealer who forwarded them to Highland Ridge. In 2 days we got word back from HR that they would replace the springs. 2 days later the dealer had the springs.I thought that was awfully strange because I figured I'd have to argue with them to put new springs on. Makes one wonder if they knew they had a problem. The wet bolt kit from MORryde will be installed in addition to the MORryde 4000 system. The quality and material difference can be seen by a blind engineer. The springs were 6 leaf 1 3/4 wide and best as I could find out rated @3000 lbs. The springs are right at the limit. I asked the dealer what have we done to correct the issue and he told me maybe it was bad steel. Yes, China. I also told him that I will be looking at those new springs just as much after the install as I was doing before I noticed the change. At the first sign of a issue the 5er will be back .   Pat

 

 

The Old Sailor

[rickeieio]

7 hours ago, JPL said:

I asked the dealer what have we done to correct the issue and he told me maybe it was bad steel. Yes, China.

Seems a lot of things get blamed on China.  They produce items as specified, and at a specified price.  I personally know businesses who have high quality items made there, but they are willing to pay up.

Perhaps the trailer manufacturer cut corners a bit close.................

[Dollytrolley]

Back to the view from 30,000 feet.....seems a bit ironic that RVIA guidelines seem to indicate that members should seek to design units with 20% to 25% pin weights......so if members seem inclined to design in the 13 to 15% range perhaps the RVIA might need to issue more "guidelines" regarding "design factors" AND "operating limitations" needed to obtain acceptable tow operations at the lower pin weights......MANY factors conspire to attain acceptable OR unacceptable tow stability.......heavy pin weights are utilized to dampen many underlaying adverse stability issues that IF mitigated could allow stable tows at reduced pin weights.....

Drive on........($eems odd to design unstable)

[JohnNJean]

47 minutes ago, Dollytrolley said:

Back to the view from 30,000 feet.....seems a bit ironic that RVIA guidelines seem to indicate that members should seek to design units with 20% to 25% pin weights......so if members seem inclined to design in the 13 to 15% range perhaps the RVIA might need to issue more "guidelines" regarding "design factors" AND "operating limitations" needed to obtain acceptable tow operations at the lower pin weights......MANY factors conspire to attain acceptable OR unacceptable tow stability.......heavy pin weights are utilized to dampen many underlaying adverse stability issues that IF mitigated could allow stable tows at reduced pin weights.....

Drive on........($eems odd to design unstable)

You're reading my mind, DT, this stability thing is kind of a black art.  Ford says 15% on the pin, conventional wisdom suggests 20%-25% and I suspect both are wrong at times.  We can't go to the weight & balance section of the flight manual because there is none. 

What few data sources do exist seem to conflict.  Determining a safe loading through trial and error has some obvious drawbacks.

Just blindly loading (overloading) an arbitrary amount of weight on the pin is likely to induce problems elsewhere.

[13speed]

So Jack, NH does not make good frames?

It makes me wonder why you are a ambassador for NH but all you ever talk about anymore is SC???

Jim, I know SC has 9 month plus wait times but NH does not. They are around 4 months right now.