"Floaters"

[phoenix2013]

I figured I post it to open up a "discussion".  Got an email from a forum member and a picture to prove it.

Good evening Henry, 

We are in Tampa to pick up a new DRV... our Carrilite was totaled by insurance.  But this particular dealer weighs all their rigs and has them posted on the pinbox....

Thought you would like a little more info on the DRV weight situation.  So here are the Dealer posted weights.  I'll pull across a CAT scale on the way home and verify this.

44'6"DRV Memphis

20420 dry weigh-t all options with 2 batteries.  No propane and dry tanks

2830 pin weight.....

13.85% pin....

It's so light even a new F150 could carry it!!!!!

[GlennWest]

I would not own it.

[GeorgiaHybrid]

2 hours ago, GlennWest said:

I would not own it.

Depends on whether or not you buy that one to live in or sleep under a bridge. In Jim's situation, he doesn't have much of a choice and I'm sure he will make it work. I can see a LOT of weight in the front of his trailer being added pretty soon though.

[Big5er]

2 hours ago, GlennWest said:

I would not own it.

Why not?

I can shuffle a few ammo cans around and probably add several hundred pounds to the front, in the closet alone, not to mention that hude front storage compartment underneath. 

The numbers in this thread were "empty" weight. Realistically, where does "most" of the stored weight in a 5er go? I would be curious to know what the GVWR of that trailer is. If it is an '18 it has a GVWR of 24000. That's a lot of available weight shift. 

To immediately proclaim "I would not own it" based simply on a changeable number is kinda narrow minded, don't you think? 

[Darryl&Rita]

Is the framing in the overhang area sized to handle the increase, percentage wise, to get from 13% to 20-25%? I lean with Glenn. 

[Big5er]

22 minutes ago, Darryl&Rita said:

Is the framing in the overhang area sized to handle the increase, percentage wise, to get from 13% to 20-25%?

The under storage isn't in the overhang, and I seriously doubt that couple hundred pounds in the closet will cause any frame issues. Hasn't on my DRV. And I never said it was optimal, I said discounting it simple based on tongue weight alone was narrow minded and is IMO a bit of an over reaction. 

DRV and the axle position on their longer units has been discussed here in many threads. It is a known factor and there are several people on here that own the 3 axle DRV's without issues. 

[GlennWest]

I state that because of such a lite pin. I believe DRV is more concerned about sales than safety. Don't take it I dislike DRV. Just that pin would be a deal breaker for me. 

[Mark and Dale Bruss]

Given the knowledge level of the general RV community, DRV is going to be successful is selling units as there is no "law" about minimum pin weight.

[Jack Mayer]

Well, once loaded up that should squeak into the RVIA guidelines. 

There are many things that can help the situation out....and I'm sure Jim will be doing many of them.

[orca]

1 hour ago, Big5er said:

DRV and the axle position on their longer units has been discussed here in many threads. It is a known factor and there are several people on here that own the 3 axle DRV's without issues.

And there are 3 axle DRV owners with issues of low pin weight and the trailer being unsafe. There i said it, the DRV toyhaulers are unsafe when loaded with two motorcycles and not enough pin weight!  The last trip i made with my fullhouse i loaded every tool i owned into the storage area just to increase the pin weight.  The trailer handled better still when i loaded the city water tank as soon as i got to warm weather!  Even though i have a heavy MDT the trailer still wagged the dog on some of the rougher roads, i can't imagine pulling with anything less!

[Big5er]

Thank goodness I don't have/want or need a toy hauler. A toy hauler is a totally different beast in itself. Most RV's do not load a couple thousand pounds on the rear of their 5er. As I said before "most" 5ers carry their weight in front of their axles, in the under storage. 

Orca, are you using a factory pin box? Have you considered a shorter one? It'll only get you a few hundred pounds(?) but it might help. 

[Dollytrolley]

Maybe........IF you just gotta increase that DRV pin weight revert back to our younger days......KING size water bed up front ......oh sure the water might taste a little funny and the cornering might be a little ....."sloppy".......and you might have to find some bell bottom pants and get a copy of Easy Rider Beta Max but a few hundred gallons will get that pin weight up......

 

So how much does Dr Pepper weigh per gallon?

Who cares how much Crown weighs.......after a gallon??

 

Maybe time to put a water bed in the ole Weight & Balance spreadsheet........

 

Drive on.........(how much water in the bed today?)

[Star Dreamer]

5 minutes ago, Dollytrolley said:

Maybe........IF you just gotta increase that DRV pin weight revert back to our younger days......KING size water bed up front ......oh sure the water might taste a little funny and the cornering might be a little ....."sloppy".......and you might have to find some bell bottom pants and get a copy of Easy Rider Beta Max but a few hundred gallons will get that pin weight up......

 

So how much does Dr Pepper weigh per gallon?

Who cares how much Crown weighs.......after a gallon??

 

Maybe time to put a water bed in the ole Weight & Balance spreadsheet........

 

Drive on.........(how much water in the bed today?)

Dolly, I figured you would say that was very close to a perfectly great balance job. Almost equal front and back.

As far as waterbeds go in RVs Spacecraft declined ( yep, they actually said NO to something) to do a waterbeds for us in the goose neck.

Of course, now they have also just recently declined to do a toy hauler 5th wheel set up for 5700# in the garage, only will do it in a semi trailer chassis which i don't think will work for us.

Dave

[rickeieio]

1 hour ago, Big5er said:

Most RV's do not load a couple thousand pounds on the rear of their 5er.

Given the space of the "garage" in the average toyhauler, I imagine the weights and balance of ours with two motorcycles is less tail heavy than most regular 5ers.  What's a rear kitchen weigh?

We don't all ride 1000# bikes, or load them towards the rear door.  When we load the smart, we back it in as far as it will go, then throw light stuff between it and the door/ramp.

That said, my Child Bride is looking at Can Am Spyders, and they are in the 900-1000# range.

Bottom line is, be aware of what, and where,  you're loading.

[orca]

2 hours ago, Big5er said:

Orca, are you using a factory pin box? Have you considered a shorter one? It'll only get you a few hundred pounds(?) but it might help.

I reached out to a company that members here know well asking for help and whether their shorter pin box would help to lower the height and raise the pin weight but no help except to offer good luck in my quest!

[Jack Mayer]

We have a pin box that might work for you. As long as you have the clearance space with your hitch as forward as most MDTs do. If you look on our website you can see the dimensions.  That pin box fits in the same location as the stock one. If you want to raise or lower the pin then you should be aware that you lose one bolt per side. 

[Exile]

So why aren't members here moving the axles?

that seems the simplest fix to me, any welding shop should be able to move them.

that gives the same stresses as loading down the front with ammo or water, or at least as far as i can figure. 

A shorter pin to trailer distance will increase the pin weight incrementally and reduce stress on the frame, but not everyone can do that based on their deck arrangement.

Has anyone moved axles yet?  Beefed up the wimpy part of the frame?  I assume it would be the overhang or the transition from lower frame to upper frame.  If the frame is weak, it's relatively easy to weld on some square tubilng to beef it up.

 

[orca]

On another note.....Dollytrolly, i live a short drive from where they make that magical elixer! Maybe i could get a coupla oak kegs in the storage bay but what do i do for balast once i get to Texas?

Drive on.........but stop wiggeling

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

Alright.... 

I've been busy with the PDI and work at the same time....  And a thunderstorm blew into a tropical storm here!

Lazy Days weighs all rigs on site which is a decent thing for a dealer to do... I think.

DRV, on the other hand, has issues.... I think and now believe that they intentionally set out to build a unit that can be towed within the weight ratings of any of the Big 3 dually's and stay below a 450/4500 truck.  Is it safe..... Oh hell no.... we all know that but until several people total their rigs and the video's get seen and lawyers start talking nothing will change.

The framing up to the overhang should be substantial enough to handle an extra 1000lbs.  That's what I've thought about adding in the lower front storage.  

We'll get back to Bismarck and move everything over and I'll weigh it there.  Then we'll start balancing the load.

Considerations are- 

-Short straight drop pin box-  this will help things but I have truck deck concerns that I may have to address first.  If I use a straight drop I will have clearance issues on the bed.  My bed steps 11" up in front of the hitch and the height issue of the old pickup truck bed rails and overhang come into play  This DRV does not have the 2 or 3" risers on the frame for the suspension to weld too, so we are nose high by 3" to start with.  Pin box is all the way up so my option is to lower the hitch.  

So, to lower the hitch I need to slide it rearward, which will give me the clearance for a straight drop pin.

- David and Phil,    Sheels and Runnings in North Dakota have had some great sales on .40 cal ammo.... 1000rd cases....   put them under the bed.... under the extra blankets.... No one tell Alie....

-    Exile     - can't move the axles... I want to keep the warranty as long as possible.  Extended warranty will drop it if XXXX items are altered from the factory set up.  If this was an older unit, I'd move them in a heart beat, and reframe/skirt the wheel well openings.  

-   Glenn -  The DRV wasn't our first choice of replacement units.  But insurance said "New and Untitled", and we didn't have 18 months for NH or Space Craft to build our floor plan.  It did PO me in a large way because I know where there is a great 2010 NH that was updated in 2016.  It is as close to a pre-existing coach we could ask for that has everything we would want.... But it's used....

I brought a bunch of tools with us.  They - Lazy Days- also filled the propane tanks today so that's 2 40lb cylinders.  We will need 2 more 6vlt batteries, so we may hit Costco or Sams and buy them, I can move the spare tire to the front for the trip home as well.  If all else fails..... 10 80lb sacks of Quikcrete will help.  

[rickeieio]

Hmmm..... Seeings how many of us have our hitch way back, we have plenty of room under the nose of the trailer for a "belly drom".   Sort of, making a forward basement?

[SuiteSuccess]

Jim,

Not trying to be in your business but I missed your loss of the Carrilite if it was in a thread.  Sorry to hear of that and hope you and Allie weren't injured in any way.

[phoenix2013]

Why not own it, in one word, sway. Pull trailer people know all about, because their trailers have even less percentage on the tongue, due to the limitations of what you can hang from the bumper. Hence the myriad of the sway control gizmos.

Here's the best demo of taking weight off the front and transferring it to the rear.

 

And here are few real life examples.

I guess the the next "New Project" might have to be adding anti-sway bars to the ET and Jack's new DRV pinbox. A collaborative"effort". 

[JohnNJean]

Seriously, how light is to light?  Please enlighten this fifth-wheel noobie.

Was just looking at the Ford Superduty towing guides.  For 2016, Ford specifies 15% - 25% on the pin for a fifthwheel.  For 2017, that line changes to "load weight should be 15% for fifth-wheels."  It looks like Ford is trying to market to a broader audience.

I scaled my fiver last week and I'm at 19% and well under max gross.  Pulls like a dream, but I could easily clean out the basement and front closet and get close to 15%.  I don't like being a test pilot and I like being well inside the envelope - if I knew where the envelope is. 

Is there any hard data on - or guidance on calculating - how light is to light?

[ALLOY]

1 hour ago, Alie&Jim's Carrilite said:

Alright.... 

I've been busy with the PDI and work at the same time....  And a thunderstorm blew into a tropical storm here!

Lazy Days weighs all rigs on site which is a decent thing for a dealer to do... I think.

DRV, on the other hand, has issues.... I think and now believe that they intentionally set out to build a unit that can be towed within the weight ratings of any of the Big 3 dually's and stay below a 450/4500 truck.  Is it safe..... Oh hell no.... we all know that but until several people total their rigs and the video's get seen and lawyers start talking nothing will change.

The framing up to the overhang should be substantial enough to handle an extra 1000lbs.  That's what I've thought about adding in the lower front storage.  

We'll get back to Bismarck and move everything over and I'll weigh it there.  Then we'll start balancing the load.

Considerations are- 

-Short straight drop pin box-  this will help things but I have truck deck concerns that I may have to address first.  If I use a straight drop I will have clearance issues on the bed.  My bed steps 11" up in front of the hitch and the height issue of the old pickup truck bed rails and overhang come into play  This DRV does not have the 2 or 3" risers on the frame for the suspension to weld too, so we are nose high by 3" to start with.  Pin box is all the way up so my option is to lower the hitch.  

So, to lower the hitch I need to slide it rearward, which will give me the clearance for a straight drop pin.

- David and Phil,    Sheels and Runnings in North Dakota have had some great sales on .40 cal ammo.... 1000rd cases....   put them under the bed.... under the extra blankets.... No one tell Alie....

-    Exile     - can't move the axles... I want to keep the warranty as long as possible.  Extended warranty will drop it if XXXX items are altered from the factory set up.  If this was an older unit, I'd move them in a heart beat, and reframe/skirt the wheel well openings.  

-   Glenn -  The DRV wasn't our first choice of replacement units.  But insurance said "New and Untitled", and we didn't have 18 months for NH or Space Craft to build our floor plan.  It did PO me in a large way because I know where there is a great 2010 NH that was updated in 2016.  It is as close to a pre-existing coach we could ask for that has everything we would want.... But it's used....

I brought a bunch of tools with us.  They - Lazy Days- also filled the propane tanks today so that's 2 40lb cylinders.  We will need 2 more 6vlt batteries, so we may hit Costco or Sams and buy them, I can move the spare tire to the front for the trip home as well.  If all else fails..... 10 80lb sacks of Quikcrete will help.  

Checking the pin box deflection will tell how much more pin weight can be added. If it is over 3/4" adding 1000lbs won't do the trailer any good. 

 

 

[phoenix2013]

JohnNJean

 

The industry "standard" for fifth wheels, until DRV and others started screwing around with it, was 20-25% percent for pin weight. And under 20% was considered "venture under your own peril"

You say yours pulls like a "dream" you go to 15% it might turn into a nightmare, this is going in the wrong direction.

Two other items for a "newbie" to know, not "offered" by industry "manuals":

If you pull with 1 ton pickup, you might have noticed that driving solo the ride is harsh and crappy, you add weight in the box and it smooths out. That's because you "activated the suspension", the truck suspension  (any truck) is designed for a load not for solo. Also in pickups you typically will not see an air hitch since it's suspension is usually all you need for cushioning.

In bigger trucks (class 6-7-8) suspension is even more brutal because they are designed to carry much higher loads than pickups, so you need an air hitch to protect the trailer. But air hitch also needs a proper load (its a form of suspension), however with pin to GVW ratio out of whack the problem of "floating" and sway surfaces, because it's not masked like it it on a hard hitch.