Refuzn-To-Grow-Up

I have taken a lot (information and help) from this forum. It took me about an hour to reflect and summarize what happened. I felt that I owed it to this group of folks. BTW - the other thing that I learned is when I am "over my head" to get local help. A good way to do that is to send a bcc email (or text) to fellow local gearheads and ask for help. And, that is how I found the mechanic who fixed my Volvo.

FINAL STATUS: The truck is fixed. 😀 THE REPAIR: Using an electric drill and a wire brush, cleaned the corrosion off of the starter motor cable (positive and negative) lugs. Replaced the corroded starter nut that secured the cable to the starter motor THE TRUCK: 2008 Volvo 780 VNL with a D16 engine with about 700,000 miles. It spent its working life in the snow country of Canada. THE PROBLEM: When I turned the ignition key to start the engine, the dash lights went out (instantly) and the starter motor did NOTHING! AFTERTHOUGHTS: Given my work load and my skill level (or lack thereof), I knew that I was in over my head. So, I reached out to friends for a referral to a good diesel mechanic. And, I found one. His initial thought was that it sounds like poor cable connections on the starter motor. He load tested the batteries. At the batteries, he checked all cables to verify correct polarity. He checked all of the fuses (in the dash fuse panel). He cleaned the , cable lug connections on the alternator. Then, he removed the cables from the starter. I have no idea how he did that because the starter is "buried" on the right side of the engine. He wire brushed the starter cable lugs and installed a new nut. When I first bought the truck, I had the dealer install a shut off switch. The dealer wired the starter motor cable through the shut off switch. When I replaced the batteries, I removed the starter motor cable from the switch because of the high starter current. The mechanic confirmed my concern and told me that the cable should not go through the switch. I wire brushed all of the heavily corroded cables lugs in the battery compartment. I replaced the heavily corroded mega fuse holders (also in battery compartment) and the mega fuses. For the last few years, the starter sounded like it was struggling to crank the engine. Now, it cranks the motor over really "snappy." One of the AWESOME things about the HDT forum is that we share our knowledge. So, I wanted to share what I have learned so that others will be able to fix their HDT's.

Fuse holders and fuses replaced. Battery cable terminals cleaned. No change. :( I decided to seek help because I am "over my head" and too busy to diagnose the problem. I reached out to one of my fellow gearhead friends (local to me) and he referred me to Jim, his diesel mechanic friend who works on big diesel trucks. This past Thursday, I spoke to Jim and I told Jim the following: I have a 2008 Volvo with a 16 liter engine. The Volvo spent its working life in Canada (lots of snow). Battery cable ends were seriously corroded. When I try to crank the engine, the starter does not crank (nothing) and the dash lights go completely out. Volvo always seemed to be "slow" cranking as if the starter motor was struggling. Jim, like most of you, said it sounds like internal cable corrosion in the big (high amp carrying) cables (positive and/or negative). He said the corrosion is not apparent because the cable to lug crimp area is covered (appears to be shrink tubing). He is coming by the house next week to work on the problem. He has the equipment to make new cables. Based upon what you folks have told me and what Jim told me, I am going to have him replace ALL of the high current cables (and any others Jim recommends) because this internal cable corrosion sounds like an electrical issue with the Volvos, as they age. When I eventually sell the Volvo, the new owner will love me. LOL. I am very thankful that I was not on the road when this happened to me. I will keep you posted and thanks to all of you for the help. Safe Travels.

Yesterday, I was going to install the Meg fuse holders when I noticed that the nuts were not in the packages. I drove back to the Volvo dealer and was told that I have to buy the nuts separately. When I screwed the nuts onto the fuse holder, there was extreme resistance at the very end. The parts guy told me they are lock nuts. These nuts are the type of lock nuts that has the ending threads mechanically "deformed." I do not like these nuts because they damage the bolt threads. So, I decided to buy nylok (250F temperature rating) from McMaster Carr. Nuts should be here in a couple of days. For those of you folks who never heard of McMaster Carr, I have used them for years. They sell quality parts and ship (usually within a few days) to me for a reasonable price. Here is a link to their website. https://www.mcmaster.com/

If I did it correctly, below is a link to a photo of the back of the fuse panel. [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/VSIk2Jwl.jpg[/IMG]

Chet, I just sent you a PM. I tried attaching the photo of the fuse panel to the PM, but the photo was too large. I am still trying to find out how to post large photos

Hi Rickeieieo: NEUTRAL SECURED? I could have shut the engine off while in gear. The dash indicator shows when I shift the gear shifter from drive to neutral. BUT . . . I suspect (but could be wrong) that there is another sensor, inside the transmission, to make sure that the tranny is, in fact, in neutral, before allowing the engine to start. The Volvo is at my house and the trailer is in storage. I tried to air up the Volvo system with my home compressor, but the compressor is old and could not reach the required air pressure to shift the tranny into gear and back to neutral. I have a compressor in the trailer that will do the job. I just have bring it home. STARTER WIRES: I just purchased a borescope. See link below. I should be able to snake the camera down to the starter and get some nice close up photos of the motor and the cable connections. Raining all day, so I will do when the rain stops. https://depstech.com/products/endoscope-with-screen-ds700-triple-lens

Hi Marcel: Yes, I could have shut the engine off while in gear. I have had my DAHH moments in life. The dash indicator shows when I shift the gear shifter from drive to neutral. BUT . . . I suspect (but could be wrong) that there is another sensor, inside the transmission, to make sure that the tranny is, in fact, in neutral, before allowing the engine to start. The Volvo is at my house and the trailer is in storage. I tried to air up the Volvo system with my home compressor, but the compressor is old and could not reach the required air pressure to shift the tranny into gear and back to neutral. I have a compressor in the trailer that will do the job. I just have bring it home. As I recall, prior to starting the engine, the tranny has to be in neutral AND the brake pedal has to be depressed.

STARTER PHOTOS: I just purchased a borescope. See link below. I have been meaning to buy one of these for years. I could not pass up the "half price deal" on it. I was practicing with the borescope last night. I should be able to snake the camera down to the starter and get some nice close up photos of the motor and the cable connections. I wish that I had the borescope, to inspect the fuses, before I violently (see below) removed them. Raining all day, so I will do when the rain stops. https://depstech.com/products/endoscope-with-screen-ds700-triple-lens FUSE INVOLVED: I tried to attach photos of the fuses, fuse block and cable end, but the files were too large. I will try again. NOTE: The nuts securing the cables to the fuse block was so corroded that I had to use a mini impact wrench to remove the nuts. This mechanically damaged the fuses and the holders. But the 150 amp fuse looks like it had been heat damaged. I had to cut up the fuse holders to remove them from the mounting plate.

Thanks Chet. That clears up some confusion on my part. I just returned from Volvo. I looked for an "old dog" with the hopes that he knew how to work the parts computer, and he did. The parts diagram, for my Volvo, did not show the mega fuse, so he went back to the parts house, pulled a fuse holder and used the part number to find where used on my Volvo. Per Volvo, the fuse rating is "from 150 amps to 400 amps." So he went out to the shop and asked a mechanic, who said 150 amps in both fuse holders. Hopefully, I will get installed this weekend

Well, today was an adventure! I decided to check out and clean up the connections on the mega fuses. A simple project. LOL. The positive and the negative cables, from the battery, are wired directly to to the mega fuse. Then the fused side of the mega fuse feeds the truck. The nuts, securing the cables, were so corroded that I could not remove them. So, I cut the studs off to free the cables. Shesh! The bolts securing the mega fuses to a mounting plate also had to be cut off. All of this corrosion may not be the problem, but as long as I am in this far, I may as well clean it all up. When I eventually sell the Big Boy, the new owners will love me for cleaning up everything. The fuse on the positive cable is black and has the following markings: Buss AMG 150A 32V. I am assuming that is a 150 amp fuse made by Bussman. The fuse on the negative cable is reddish in color and is marked 400A 32V. There are no manufacturer markings (China?). I am assuming that this fuse is a 400 amp fuse. I am no electronics genius (far from it). I do not understand why the positive cable is fused at 150 amps and the negative cable is fused at 400 amps. The way the fuses are wired (immediately from the positive and negative terminals of the battery), it would seem to me that the current going through the positive cable is the same as the current going through the negative cable. Therefore, the fuses amperage rating should be the same. Anybody have any idea how many amps the starter motor draws when it is turning over a 16 liter (976 cubic inches) diesel engine? I am on my way to the Volvo dealer to buy new maga fuses holders and fuses. Hopefully, their parts computer should be able to tell me what the fuse amperage is for the two fuses.

I'll check Mark Buss' website. Only diagnostics are low system air pressure and low transmission air pressure.

Yes, I agree. The solenoid is mounted on the starter. BUT, it appears that the relay that activates the solenoid is also mounted on the starter, as opposed to the firewall. If i can get to the starter motor, I will take a photo with my I-phone. If not, then I am thinking about buying one of those cameras that will allow me to "snake" the camera down to the starter connections and take a picture. As an admitted "Tool-O-Holic," ya can't have too many kool tools.

Yeah, that is what I was finding. Volvo should have put the relay on the firewall, just like what you folks are telling me. Lucky me. LOL.

Thanks for staying with me. I am working on the Volvo as work permits. I located the studs on the firewall. They were behind the steering column. They look as nasty as the other connections. See photos. I did not see any studs on the right side. I will check again, as time allows. I removed the right steps cover and was able to gain access to under the truck (without too much anxiety). There was lots of room above me. I did not bring a flashlight (DAHHH!) with me. The starter looks like it might be on the right side of the engine on the D16. I noticed humongous cables going to the right side of the engine. They were covered in dirt and muck, but I think that these are the large (positive and negative) cables coming from the battery. I will clean a spot up and see if they are red and black. Gotta get back to work . . . . just in case I have to have the Big Boy towed to my mechanic to fix.

Chet, thanks for the info. I will follow your troubleshooting instructions.

Good Morning Chet: There is NO WAY that I will get under the truck to change the starter. See my earlier post on the horrible death of my friend Mark. If I can't fix this problem, without going under the truck, then the truck is off to the shop and I will have to "shake some cash out of the money tree." The ONLY purpose of looking into the purchase of a new starter was to investigate whether the relay that activates the starter solenoid was located on the starter motor (or on the firewall as in some Volvos). I watched several videos diagnosing starter problems (for the D16 engine) and I observed what appeared to be a relay bolted onto the starter motor. Since, I could not locate a relay on the firewall, I went down the "rabbit hole" to see what is supplied with a new starter. The photo of the starter shows a relay bolted to the starter motor. If I knew someone who worked in the parts depatment of a Volvo dealer, I would ask them to look up the starter in their parts computer and print me the pictorial of the starter. For other HDT members, who own a 2008 780, VNL with the D16 engine, the starter solenoid relay MAY be bolted to the starter motor. But, I am still researching. If/when the starter motor is replaced AND if the relay is bolted to the starter motor, I will ask my mechanic to relocate the relay from the starter motor to the firewall. Today, I will do a more careful inspection of the firewall for a relay. It would be wonderful if the relay is on the firewall. I will also clean up the firewall pass through terminals/connections.

I was unable to locate the relay on the firewall. So, I did some research on purchasing a starter motor for a 2008 VNL D16 Volvo engine and it appears that the relay is bolted onto the starter motor. See the Delco Remy link below. I am so thankful that this occured at home and not on a trip. https://www.delcoremy.com/find-a-part/product-details/8200469

I just went out and looked for the studs on the firewall. I located some on left side firewall on the left side of the steering column. I'll check those out tomorrow. The wire connections sure do look purty now. Too bad I don't hear the beast spring to life when I turn the key . . . . . .

Since I was in this deep, I decided to check the cut off switch status and clean the cable lugs. This Volvo is going on 20 years old. SHUT-OFF SWITCH: The nut on the switched side of the shut off switch was only finger tight. The nut and washer were welded together. I have no idea how the starter motor could even turn over that big diesel engine with this loose connection, but it did. In hindsight, the starter motor always seemed to be struggling. The switch was installed by a local Volvo dealer. Due to other issues, I stopped going to that dealer years ago. Nuff said! The switch (Flaming River brand) is rated for 250 amps continuous and 2,500 ammps (for five seconds) max surge. I decide to remove the humongous starter motor cable from the switch and connected the cable directly to the battery. For those who might want to install a cut off switch, I attached photos. I had the switch installed to stop the parasitic losses, on the battery, when the Volvo was in storage. CABLE WORK. I wire brushed the cable lugs that connected to the shut off switch. The lugs were pretty nasty. Tomorrow, I will clean up the cable lugs that go to and from the mega fuses (one fuse for the positive cable and one fuse for the negative cable) that are located in the battery compartment. I will pull the mega fuses and check their connections. I am guessing that these connection points are just as nasty as the cables lugs that I cleaned today. FIREWALL GROUNDS AND RELAYS: I had to get back to work, so I stopped with the above-mentioned work. I will get back on it tomorrow morning. I did take a photo of the left firewall. See attached. STARTER CABLE: I looked under the truck (recall, I hate going under vehicles), but could not see the starter motor. Tomorrow, I will try to locate it. NEW INFORMATION: When I turn the key to the crank (start) position, I hear (I put in my hearing aides, LOL) relays clicking and clacking in the dash fuse box. When I turn the ignition key to the crank position, only the dash gauges go out. Everything else seems to still have power. When I release the key from the crank position, back to the run position, the Volvo goes into its "start up" sequence as though I had just turned the key to the "on" position for the first time. STATUS: The Volvo is still a "NO CRANK." :(

Forgot to add. Before I do any disassembly and cleaning, I am going to connect a voltmeter to the switched side of the switch and measure voltage while trying to crank the engine. Then, regardless of the outcome of the above test, I will clean the terminals on the cables and switch and check resistance of the switch.

When I was a young man, Mark, one of my best friends was killed when the VW bus that he was working on shifted on the work stands (I was told that he used wooden milk crates for his work stands!). Mark was pinned by the bus and suffocated because he could not move, breath or scream for help. Ever since then, I am unable to work under a vehicle, without thinking about Mark So, I am postponing checking the cable connection on the starter motor until the very end. Based upon what you folks have been telling me (poor cable connections), I am shifting my attention to the battery cutoff switch, which was installed by the Volvo dealer, after I purchased the truck. See the attached link. I even posted in this link. The cable lugs on the switch look pretty bad. So, I will clean the connections and connect the cables directly to the battery to see if the motor will crank. While attending "class" at "YouTube University," I saw that one trucker posted about having electrical problems that he traced to the poor connections on the cut off switch. I just checked the wiring on the shut off switch and the starter motor is wired such that all of the starter motor current goes through the cutoff switch. I would have wired the starter motor cable directly to the battery, as is suggested in the attached post. If the motor starts, with the cutoff switch bypassed, I will remove the switch, clean the switch terminals and check the resistance. I will replace the switch and wire the starter motor cable directly to the battery. The starter motor current draw, to turn over a 16 liter diesel motor, has to be huge!

Thank you all for the help. Due to some work emergencies, I was not able to work on the problem today. I will get back on it tomorrow morning at daybreak. I was up late last night trying to find starter circuit schematics for my truck and "attending" YouTube University classes. I learned that a lot of truckers are/were experiencing electrical issues with their Volvos. I have another question. When I initially tried to start the motor (with the old batteries), the battery voltage was about 7 volts. I did not discovery the low voltage problem until after engine would not start and I put a voltmeter on the batteries. I am not a electrical engineer type person, but I do remember the formula of Watts = volts x amps. Could the low voltage (one half normal) resulted in a very high amp draw (twice normal) and the high amp draw blew a fuse, circuit breaker or a fusible link in the starter circuit?