"Floaters"

[GeorgiaHybrid]

1 hour ago, 13speed said:

So Jack, NH does not make good frames?

It makes me wonder why you are a ambassador for NH but all you ever talk about anymore is SC???

Jim, I know SC has 9 month plus wait times but NH does not. They are around 4 months right now. 

That is due to SC building the RV's that Jack, Marc and Greg's new company are selling. There are several of other companies out there building good frames also.

[Jack Mayer]

New Horizons builds very good frames. The topic (I believe) was who has built a frame without ever having any issues....that was the direction of my comment. New Horizon has had frame issues in the past on SOME configurations - which they quickly corrected. 

I advocate for New Horizons and/or Spacecraft, depending on what one would want in a unit - RVH works with both companies. And even before RVH I would direct people to what I considered the appropriate place for what they wanted - in the end it is up to the individual. But one should be aware of all the available choices prior to selection, IMO.

Spacecraft provides more running gear and infrastructure choices than New Horizons. But the interiors in the "standard" Spacecraft units are not as "embellished" as a New Horizons. You can make them so, but they do not come that way by default. You see what I own - for a 5th wheel (RV style, vs semi) it is a pretty darn nice coach with some significant infrastructure "upgrades". It is for sale, but if we don't sell it we will be very happy to keep living in it.

Dave is correct that a number of other companies build good frames. Featherlight, and other highly custom companies do great work. It is just that most "production" RVs are lacking at some level in the frame category. Especially the larger units. Not  to say that could not be corrected. The often-bashed Lippert Frames can be just fine. Assuming they are welded correctly.  Every RV has some compromises someplace. You just have to figure what YOU are willing to compromise on.

Chris, I'll be at New Horizons in the next couple of weeks....looking forward to seeing your new coach. Cole says it is going to be pretty spectacular. 

[13speed]

1 hour ago, Jack Mayer said:

New Horizons builds very good frames. The topic (I believe) was who has built a frame without ever having any issues....that was the direction of my comment. New Horizon has had frame issues in the past on SOME configurations - which they quickly corrected. 

I advocate for New Horizons and/or Spacecraft, depending on what one would want in a unit - RVH works with both companies. And even before RVH I would direct people to what I considered the appropriate place for what they wanted - in the end it is up to the individual. But one should be aware of all the available choices prior to selection, IMO.

Spacecraft provides more running gear and infrastructure choices than New Horizons. But the interiors in the "standard" Spacecraft units are not as "embellished" as a New Horizons. You can make them so, but they do not come that way by default. You see what I own - for a 5th wheel (RV style, vs semi) it is a pretty darn nice coach with some significant infrastructure "upgrades". It is for sale, but if we don't sell it we will be very happy to keep living in it.

Dave is correct that a number of other companies build good frames. Featherlight, and other highly custom companies do great work. It is just that most "production" RVs are lacking at some level in the frame category. Especially the larger units. Not  to say that could not be corrected. The often-bashed Lippert Frames can be just fine. Assuming they are welded correctly.  Every RV has some compromises someplace. You just have to figure what YOU are willing to compromise on.

Chris, I'll be at New Horizons in the next couple of weeks....looking forward to seeing your new coach. Cole says it is going to be pretty spectacular. 

That's what he has been telling me too:) I will be there in a couple of weeks as well. We will have lots of interesting things to talk about. 

[phoenix2013]

 

OK lets start on a high note. I reviewed the DRV frame video and took some "stills". From the design point of view it's pretty robust frame when it comes to the height of the main frame and the forward section under the bedroom, the fifth wheel area and the front compartment.

Not as good as the same area in New Horizons,

but they didn't have Jack's "guidance" to point out the "error's of their ways".

Then I moved to the back area and did some close ups of the welding, in one place it looks like someone was "practicing".

Certainly not even close to what my welder can deliver.

I assume the "welding gurus" on the forum will offer and assessment of heat, speed, wire size and gas flow 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

Henry,

I could say a lot about the welds but to be honest about it, I haven't seen ANY trailer frame that didn't have welds that wouldn't pass a good visual inspection much less a mag particle or ultrasonic inspection to AWS D1.1 standards. You don't want to get me started on T,K,Y tube welds or the skewed plate and skewed web welds that I have looked at. Suffice to say, there is a LOT of "leeway" in the industry. Fortunately or not, they mostly get stuck together good enough to last the average RVer. The DRV frames are pretty robust for the most part and will stand up to abuse a lot longer than others on the market just by virtue of being a stacked tube design.

The trick is in using just enough material and weld to do the job without being too heavy and taking away capacity. That is a battle that has been fought since Noah laid out the plans for the ark.

[Imurphy907]

Not sure why these frames are not being robotically welded.

As a former CWI for a ship yard, I get a twitch when I start looking around.

[phoenix2013]

I noticed the triple stacked tube right away, which is the big plus on that frame. The days of Tetons, Travel Supreme, Carriage, Newmars, etc., are over. Other than the two, three manufacturers talked about above they don't make 100,000 miles RVs anymore that can outlast two or three sets of owners.

I can see a great parallel that we have seen in car manufacturing. After a period of "big boats" and muscle cars with frames and with  statute we entered the 70's of absolute tin can junk. Even Iaccoca admitted that in the 70's "we built real junk". It all changed with crazy Ralph Nader and now cars will outlast two or three owners and junk or safety screw-ups have to be publicly acknowledged and fixed on schedule.

I think the RV industry is on the 70's era and I am waiting for another Ralph Nader to take an interest in its products.  

[GeorgiaHybrid]

33 minutes ago, Imurphy907 said:

Not sure why these frames are not being robotically welded.

As a former CWI for a ship yard, I get a twitch when I start looking around.

Even the structural fabrication industry hasn't taken to robotic welding except in a few areas. Peddinghaus and a few other equipment makers are starting to get involved in the robotic welding arena but widespread implementation is still years away. As for the RV industry, I agree that they could invest in some robotic welders but after touring some of the facilities in Elkhart, I can understand why they don't.

Nexus as an example builds everything from a class B+ to a class A on the same line with the same workers, Dynamax has two lines, one for "big" trucks and one for the smaller rigs. Robotic welders work best when on an assembly line where everything is the same frame and you build hundreds at a time. It can be done on multiple frame type lines but the jigs and setup time would be prohibitive.

I do agree that there should be some oversight of the industry as far as basic frames, axles, brakes and suspensions and their related parts. Once we can get the running gear safe, maybe the rest of the units can start to be improved. As far as the current welding is concerned with you being a CWI, turn a blind eye and drink an adult beverage. It doesn't help the welds any but it does make you care a little less.

[ALLOY]

5 hours ago, GeorgiaHybrid said:

The DRV frames are pretty robust for the most part and will stand up to abuse a lot longer than others on the market just by virtue of being a stacked tube design.

 

Considering the price point of NH vs. DRV the frame are robust but I'll say my preference is for the thick steel that I beams have. 

Some of things that seemed odd to me on the DRV frames are:

- really long CL -CL (36"-48") weld spacing between the HSS.

- no welds between the HSS at the outrigger locations.

- no welds connecting the HSS at cross brace locations

- the angles at the top and bottom of the cross braces ending at the sidewall of the HSS.   

- not continuously welded over axle locations

[GlennWest]

Long continuos bead on straight steel warps it. Stich welding is preferred most time in these cases. One can stich weld, let cool, then weld between stich but this causes more stress on weld area. We generally always stich weld in construction on long continuous runs. Also on subject of weld. If good penatraction, no undercut, adequate amount, weld is good even if ugly. Lord knows, I have been in some awful places to make a weld. They were presentable. Nothing pretty about it. X rayed good though. 

[jollyrogr]

I've also seen pretty welds fail X-ray and need to be ground out and redone.

[GlennWest]

Definitely. Pretty does not mean it is a good weld. 

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

14 hours ago, GlennWest said:

Long continuos bead on straight steel warps it. Stich welding is preferred most time in these cases. One can stich weld, let cool, then weld between stich but this causes more stress on weld area. We generally always stich weld in construction on long continuous runs. Also on subject of weld. If good penatraction, no undercut, adequate amount, weld is good even if ugly. Lord knows, I have been in some awful places to make a weld. They were presentable. Nothing pretty about it. X rayed good though. 

This is what failed on our Carrilite... lack of weld penetration.  Some areas looked like the mill scale was never ground and welds just "Popped" off the tube.

We did a quick weight check..... they- Lazy Days didn't lie... The pin was 2910 with 15% water on board (15 gal) and the LP full.   So let's talk about chucking and uplifting of a hitch.... even with the HDT in construction areas it was ugly.  The first 50-80 miles of I-75 north out of Tampa has construction zones with patched lanes.... We made a stop and I modified our Trailer Saver air bag set up.  We have 3 airbags.  The old Carrilite had a pin weight of 4850lbs most days, so the 3rd air bag was needed.  

So to help contain the upswing of the hitch, I disconnected the 3rd bag from the air system but left it in place.  I removed 1 of the Tee's and put the plumbing back to 2 bags that would still operate.  Then I deflated the hitch with the trailer attached to squish the 3rd air bag as far as it would.  Then I plugged the airline to that third bag.  Reinflated the hitch to about 35psi (all 2900lbs needs.... probably overkill at that still).  

The 3rd airbag operating in a vacuum mode... not being able to stretch but a limited amount helped better than I thought.  It tamed the upswing.  Probably killed the air bag, but E-bay sells them all day.

[Big5er]

On 8/4/2017 at 1:07 PM, GlennWest said:

Definitely. Pretty does not mean it is a good weld. 

Really?? Then maybe I can weld after all. 

My little sister says my welds look like a gorilla did them  She says that the girls in her AG classes weld better than I do. 

Thanks Glenn, maybe there is hope for me after all

[GlennWest]

I bought a 190 amp mig gun. Splatter guns we call them. Has settings on it for size of steel one welding. DW was outside with me while I was welding. See got my spare hood and watched. Says that looks easy. Wanna try. With a little coaching she was making decent welds. She had never tried before. Splatter guns are easy. 

[CrazyCooter]

On 8/1/2017 at 9:24 AM, Lou Schneider said:

How about Northwood Mfg?  

I looked at Arctic Fox last year when we were shopping......I wasn't any more impressed with the quality of welds on the 5th wheel chassis than any of the Lippert stuff I looked at. I'm not a professional welder or an inspector, but have melted a lot of metal in my lifetime that looks much better than what is rolling off RV production lines.

[Exile]

3 hours ago, Big5er said:

Really?? Then maybe I can weld after all. 

My little sister says my welds look like a gorilla did them  She says that the girls in her AG classes weld better than I do. 

Thanks Glenn, maybe there is hope for me after all

I worked in a yard where they built "gorilla" drilling rigs.

the joke was, all the welds were gorilla welds, big, ugly, and strong.

surface quality and looks only comes in when fatigue is a factor.  

[Dollytrolley]

On 7/31/2017 at 7:31 AM, phoenix2013 said:

I figured I post it to open up a "discussion".  Got an email from a forum member and a picture to prove it.

Good evening Henry, 

We are in Tampa to pick up a new DRV... our Carrilite was totaled by insurance.  But this particular dealer weighs all their rigs and has them posted on the pinbox....

Thought you would like a little more info on the DRV weight situation.  So here are the Dealer posted weights.  I'll pull across a CAT scale on the way home and verify this.

44'6"DRV Memphis

20420 dry weigh-t all options with 2 batteries.  No propane and dry tanks

2830 pin weight.....

13.85% pin....

It's so light even a new F150 could carry it!!!!!

 

On 7/31/2017 at 0:46 PM, orca said:

And there are 3 axle DRV owners with issues of low pin weight and the trailer being unsafe. There i said it, the DRV toyhaulers are unsafe when loaded with two motorcycles and not enough pin weight!  The last trip i made with my fullhouse i loaded every tool i owned into the storage area just to increase the pin weight.  The trailer handled better still when i loaded the city water tank as soon as i got to warm weather!  Even though i have a heavy MDT the trailer still wagged the dog on some of the rougher roads, i can't imagine pulling with anything less!

 

So...........Now that we have beat the welding-horse subject to death maybe we should have a....... vote on the Potential-Hitch-Pin-Weight (PHPW) that the DRV units might be allowed......... before the bedroom falls off or whatever happens when all these welds fail......

When I look down from 30,000 ft it seems that the complaints center on two basic areas.....

1. The sub-3,000 pound pin weights tend to "excite" the moderate capacity air suspended hitches .......(Henry has toiled to make some of hitches less-excited)

2. ORCA has commented that even his MDT becomes "excited-in-tow" when he has a couple of Hogs in the back of his DRV toyhauler........(however ORCA says that the tow improves when he adds more fresh water in his DRV fresh water tank)

 

So........get your flame throwers gassed up.........

 

So..........just how many of these DRV (and "floaters") have turned upside down in the ditch?  ?   ?

 

What do DRV dealers say or do when folks show up with soiled drivers seats.......

 

Has anyone had a discussion with DRV regarding the suggested loading of their units for "un-excited-towing?????

 

PIN WEIGHT is but ONE factors in trailer towing dynamics ...........many factors conspire to compose a stable or unstable tow Pin Weight is just ONE!!!

 

I have offered many times to calculate various load distributions for various DRV units but when I ask for basic details about the units NO ONE seems to know ANY details..........NO one seems to have a clue where their fresh water tank is located but some folks seem to think the tow improves ......some.......after they pour 800 POUNDS of water in the tank..........Shuck maybe we should fill the black and grey tanks as well.......

 

Maybe the lawyers can get involved...........they seem to have most of the answers.....

 

Maybe 15% pin weight is the NEW-NORMAL...........yes........just change the specs.........why did it take so long to fix this??? 

 

Drive on..........(don't run over a lawyer with your ......."Floater")

 

 

[jollyrogr]

28 minutes ago, Exile said:

surface quality and looks only comes in when fatigue is a factor.  

Like on a RV frame?

[Big5er]

1 hour ago, jollyrogr said:

Like on a RV frame?

I do believe he was talking about drilling rigs and not RV frames. You might should leave his sentence in the paragraph so it retains the context in which it was used. 

[Refuzn-To-Grow-Up]

5 hours ago, Big5er said:

Really?? Then maybe I can weld after all. 

My little sister says my welds look like a gorilla did them  She says that the girls in her AG classes weld better than I do. 

Thanks Glenn, maybe there is hope for me after all

Ahhh . . . . maybe she was saying you were a gorilla. 

[Big5er]

Gee, I never looked at it like that before. 

Hope you don't expect me to thank you for this new outlook.

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

DT- I'm working on it.  Got back to Bismarck ND Saturday afternoon and started moving everything from the old to the new.  Finished all the carrying today and started putting everything away. If work doesn't get too heavy, I'll start pulling measurements.   I won't have loaded weights for awhile, and won't have individual wheel or axle for longer.  Scales are scarce here in ND.

[ALLOY]

On 8/5/2017 at 4:01 PM, Dollytrolley said:

 

 

So...........Now that we have beat the welding-horse subject to death maybe we should have a....... vote on the Potential-Hitch-Pin-Weight (PHPW) that the DRV units might be allowed......... before the bedroom falls off or whatever happens when all these welds fail......

When I look down from 30,000 ft it seems that the complaints center on two basic areas.....

1. The sub-3,000 pound pin weights tend to "excite" the moderate capacity air suspended hitches .......(Henry has toiled to make some of hitches less-excited)

2. ORCA has commented that even his MDT becomes "excited-in-tow" when he has a couple of Hogs in the back of his DRV toyhauler........(however ORCA says that the tow improves when he adds more fresh water in his DRV fresh water tank)

 

So........get your flame throwers gassed up.........

 

So..........just how many of these DRV (and "floaters") have turned upside down in the ditch?  ?   ?

 

What do DRV dealers say or do when folks show up with soiled drivers seats.......

 

Has anyone had a discussion with DRV regarding the suggested loading of their units for "un-excited-towing?????

 

PIN WEIGHT is but ONE factors in trailer towing dynamics ...........many factors conspire to compose a stable or unstable tow Pin Weight is just ONE!!!

 

I have offered many times to calculate various load distributions for various DRV units but when I ask for basic details about the units NO ONE seems to know ANY details..........NO one seems to have a clue where their fresh water tank is located but some folks seem to think the tow improves ......some.......after they pour 800 POUNDS of water in the tank..........Shuck maybe we should fill the black and grey tanks as well.......

 

Maybe the lawyers can get involved...........they seem to have most of the answers.....

 

Maybe 15% pin weight is the NEW-NORMAL...........yes........just change the specs.........why did it take so long to fix this??? 

 

Drive on..........(don't run over a lawyer with your ......."Floater")

 

 

 

.....been thinking about this.  None of the videos in this thread are sway on 5th wheels.

 

 

When I watch this It looks like the issue the back tires are not glued to the road.

 

 

Maybe the the important factor isn't a % of the trailer but the certain amount of weight needed to keep the tires of the tow vehicle from skidding. This weight could come from the trailer or the payload in the tow vehicle.

 

[Dollytrolley]

On 8/6/2017 at 9:05 PM, J-T said:

 

.....been thinking about this.  None of the videos in this thread are sway on 5th wheels.

 

 

When I watch this It looks like the issue the back tires are not glued to the road.

 

 

Maybe the the important factor isn't a % of the trailer but the certain amount of weight needed to keep the tires of the tow vehicle from skidding. This weight could come from the trailer or the payload in the tow vehicle.

 

JT,

Unfortunately like many computer simulations this is a example of "junk-in results in Junk-out" when many "oversimplification" is made with computers.......

 

IF you go to utube and look at ACTUAL dash cam footage of UNSTABLE RV trailer incidents you should pay attention to the ROLL-AXIS coupling that is a HUGE factor in triggering the divergent / unstable trailer excitation.........

Mother nature makes a lot of moves in many directions when she decides to make things........exciting....... 

 

Drive on...........(Don't ignore mother natures.........moves)