Is it me or is the RV industry one big scam!

[orca]

I kinda had to giggle at the comment about....you get what you pay for!  I paid big dollars for my high priced toyhauler and had big warranty claims, about $10,000 till i ran out of warranty and a couple thousand since!  Most all RVs built in the mid west use the same piece-workers who seem to take no pride in their work since they do not have to deal with buyers in their daily lives.

[palmeris]

4 hours ago, orca said:

I kinda had to giggle at the comment about....you get what you pay for!  I paid big dollars for my high priced toyhauler and had big warranty claims, about $10,000 till i ran out of warranty and a couple thousand since!  Most all RVs built in the mid west use the same piece-workers who seem to take no pride in their work since they do not have to deal with buyers in their daily lives.

A couple of questions if you dont mind, not being critical, just trying to understand why you chose to spend the big dollars with that particular manufacture.

Did you do your due diligence when you chose DRV / Thor for your toy hauler, do a factory tour, see how they were built, see what if anything set them apart from their competition , talk with any of the piece- workers, talk with other DRV owners? 

Presume it was new since you mentioned warranty claims, did you buy it new from a dealers inventory or order it and have it built ? 

Do you know where those big dollars went into the build ,or how did they justify the additional cost? Were any of the items that they justified for these big dollars items that failed and had warranty claims?

Looking back at your expieriences, if you had paid less would you then feel that you got what you paid for? If so, how much less until your cost equals the value received? Had their not been the 10K of warranty claims, would you then feel you got what you paid for?

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by palmeris

[slackercruster]

OP...yes and no. I got a truck camper, so my truck is separated from the RV industry. The truck camper has had some issues, but I work around them. The truck has been pretty good except for some minor issues.

I would not buy a truck camper again. I bought it for a few reasons that no longer apply to me. I would buy a decent mini class C if I had the $. So, I just keep the truck camper.

RV's are different that the furniture and appliances you buy for your home and such. Learn to live with it and mod things when you can to improve them. Like, if the mattress is bad, put in something else.

Good luck!

[orca]

On 6/13/2023 at 5:48 PM, palmeris said:

A couple of questions if you dont mind, not being critical, just trying to understand why you chose to spend the big dollars with that particular manufacture.

Did you do your due diligence when you chose DRV / Thor for your toy hauler, do a factory tour, see how they were built, see what if anything set them apart from their competition , talk with any of the piece- workers, talk with other DRV owners? 

Presume it was new since you mentioned warranty claims, did you buy it new from a dealers inventory or order it and have it built ? 

Do you know where those big dollars went into the build ,or how did they justify the additional cost? Were any of the items that they justified for these big dollars items that failed and had warranty claims?

Looking back at your expieriences, if you had paid less would you then feel that you got what you paid for? If so, how much less until your cost equals the value received? Had their not been the 10K of warranty claims, would you then feel you got what you paid for?

 

RE due diligence; i researched as much as i could. When i bought the toyhauler there was not much to choose from. There were no Fullhouse owners on this or any forum i could find.  There were many DRV owners that seemed pleased with their trailers.  

Factory tour?  The factory tour i took was when i was in the area getting the failed front jacks replaced under a "goodwill" warranty.  I did learn why none of the trim pieces were cut square because the skilled worker was cutting them freehand with sissors!

The bones of the DRV trailers are well built and thought out but the workmanship leaves a lot to be desired. (i could give u a list as long as your arm but this post would be percieved as DRV bashing and it is not)

I bought the only Fullhouse within 1000 miles sight unseen based on what info i had. I must however say that i do not regret the purchase because it was the "best in class" at the time.

The MoRide suspention was touted as the best thing since sliced bread and came with a premium price. All well and good till you are stuck in an rv park for a week waiting for new rubber blocks to replace the broken set. Nobody around who knew anything about this system so i was left to do the repair myself.  Justified premium price?......certainly not at the time!!

The last paragraph of your post is unquantifiable so i will not attempt an answer.

[PullinChocks]

When we started it was hard.  After the first week it became much easier.  It was fun the whole way.  There are some big expenses, but our experience is that it is less expensive in the long run than living in a house.  We would do it all over again for it was the most fun we had in our entire lives.

[palmeris]

Thank you for your open and honest responses , it helps us and others as we navigate through the design, build, purchase process.

The value of a purchase is really in the eye of the individual. No one wants to over pay, think everyone wants to feel that they got a deal at the end of the day.

Regarding your rig and circumstances, do you feel you got what you paid for? Did the 10k of warranty claims and other issues after the sale change that opinion one way or the other?

Again thank you for your candor

[jimnlin]

This may not be too timely, but, when we were still working decided we were going full time. We had been in a used (forget what) for a couple years. We began using vacations to visit the brands that seemed, at the time to be better units. We toured factories from WY, KS, MO, IN and a couple of others. After observing build methods, finished products and interest from personnel, we bought our first NuWa Champagne, 40 ft. in 1991. Ordered and picked it up from the factory and it became our home when we retired in 1996. In 1998 while spending winter in Yuma, looked at a 1998 Champagne 38ft.

Since we had been to factory several times, we ordered one with several changes. Today, we are still in same trailer, but with good bones, we did some interior changes (updated) and will be for forseeable future. We are currently in a park next to a Camping World and after touring some of the "upscale" units, we would not trade. Just our opinion.

 

Jim/Linda

[RV_]

On 6/28/2023 at 8:01 AM, jimnlin said:

This may not be too timely, but, when we were still working decided we were going full time. We had been in a used (forget what) for a couple years. We began using vacations to visit the brands that seemed, at the time to be better units. We toured factories from WY, KS, MO, IN and a couple of others. After observing build methods, finished products and interest from personnel, we bought our first NuWa Champagne, 40 ft. in 1991. Ordered and picked it up from the factory and it became our home when we retired in 1996. In 1998 while spending winter in Yuma, looked at a 1998 Champagne 38ft.

Since we had been to factory several times, we ordered one with several changes. Today, we are still in same trailer, but with good bones, we did some interior changes (updated) and will be for forseeable future. We are currently in a park next to a Camping World and after touring some of the "upscale" units, we would not trade. Just our opinion.

 

Jim/Linda

Jim,

Our first rig was a HH and we started and ended each year's travels at the factory in Chanute. Were I to go back into a fiver a well cared for HH would take precedence over all others. There was a company there that made all their furniture, cabinets and window treatments. We went to a 1998 Damon Challenger in 2000 and it was a nightmare.

[TXiceman]

We seem to specialize in RVs that become orphans.  They are better built, cost more and are heavier...then they are out of business.  We had two Carriage Cameo, and Avion 5er, an Avion silver bumper pull and a HitchHikerChampage 5er.

Since we are not on the road we looked and came down considerably in size and quality with a Keystone Cougar half Ton.  We will take care of it and hope it makes 5 years.

Ken

 

 

[bruce t]

After all these years I still can't get my head around RV warranty. Buy a $20000.00 car and if it gets dirty the law will protect you for years. Yes I exagerate! Buy a $500000.00 RV and in 12 months you are on your own. WHY?

[kb0zke]

"Buy a $500000.00 RV and in 12 months you are on your own. WHY?" Because they can.

I'm old enough to remember when a car that made it to 100,000 miles was something really special. When our 2015 Lincoln MKT hit 100,000 miles it was time to change the spark plugs for the first time. What happened? Competition from Europe and Asia. Americans started buying those funny-looking little cars in larger numbers, and Detroit noticed.

The same thing is unlikely to happen in the RV world because the American consumer has changed. Now, price is everything. Think about the high-end brands in 2000. How many of those are still around? How many do you think will still be around in 2025? How many are still stand-alone companies (not part of Thor or Forest River)?

Back when we were researching, more than 10 years ago, we talked to a couple who related their experience and that story has stuck with me. When they got ready to go full-time they bought a "popular brand" motorhome brand new. (They didn't say what brand it was.) Within a year they realized that it didn't have the quality to be a full-time coach, so they traded it even-up for a 10-year-old Foretravel.

Quality costs money and is heavy. This time around we really wanted an Airstream, about a 2005-2008 or so, but didn't find any during the time we had to buy something, so we bought this Reflection. Yes, we have three slides and a warranty, but it is far from an Airstream, which would have cost us the same amount of money and not had the slides (which we would rather not have).

[bigjim]

I remember buying one of very few new vehicles I ever bought. It was I think one of the most basic F100's out there I think about 1980. What ever time it was, that year and several years around that time frame they had  a 12 month -12,000 mile warranty.  I had one major issue right in front of a Ford dealer with the clutch just about 100 miles before the warranty ran out. They fixed it and had no more issues for over 100,000 miles when I sold it for a heavier truck.

How much warranty does a new sticks and bricks have.  What if your builder ends up declaring bancrupty  after you take possession?  I think that has happened with a good number of rv mfg. over the years. But I do think there should be a better warranty rv's and a good number of other items.

[bruce t]

FWIW here in Australia RV caravans/trailers built in China carry a 5 year structural warranty. They are "forcing" local builders to follow suit. So just like imported cars it will take cheaper higher quality imports to change local builders.

 

[Kirk W]

17 hours ago, bigjim said:

How much warranty does a new sticks and bricks have. 

Most have 1 year unless an additional home warranty is purchased. 

[bigjim]

3 hours ago, Kirk W said:

Most have 1 year unless an additional home warranty is purchased. 

Thats what I thought. and a house sure costs way more than an RV.  I think new houses should care some type of warranty longer than one year on a house.

[bobsallyh]

Unless you are fulltiming, folks get more use out of a 1-year warranty on a house versus a 1 year warranty on an RV that spends it's time in the driveway or storage. 

[rpsinc]

BUT, lets also include the fact that RVs depreciat about 20%+ when driven off the lot but houses tend to appreciate, and IF they(houses) depreciate we are typically in an economic downturn.  Yes, warranties and quality of construction need to be addressed, both for houses and RVs, but these are the times we live in and what can we do about it?  I think the idea of buying used quality RVs from the days of old, just like many of us do with houses, will hopefully cause the manufacturers to realize that we are not willing to pay so much for so little, thus reducing the demand for new RVs.  Yes some manufacturers will close their doors, but that may not be solely a function of reduction of demand, because there are so many factors affecting a business' viability, but to cheapen your product and continue to sell at high prices and then add the workmanship issues on top of that, well, we have to affect change, after all, we have the power as consumers.

[Steven@146]

I don't think a person can really fairly compare the Auto manufacturer industry to the RV industry. Automobiles are bolted, screwed and welded together and mostly robots do the work. A huge amount of engineering goes into the drive train, braking, suspension and ride quality. Very precise, calibrated and strict tolerances. Most Autos do not weigh 10,000-20,000 +# and not like a rolling earthquake going down the road, also most people do not live in their Autos. Yes there are safety related problems in the Auto industry, air bags, faulty electrical system etc, but the NTSB isn't hounding the RV industry.

RVs are mostly handmade. Mostly manufactured with a collection of things produced by other manufacturers which gives the manufacturer plausible deniability, if a Lippert frame fails its their fault, go talk to them as an example. Loose tolerances, no strict calibration or tolerances. Just barely good enough, until recently mostly old school technology, but not nearly overly engineered systems like autos. Yes some welding but by hand labor, and bolted together but mostly pin nailed and screwed together without the use of calibrated hand tools. There is a lot more man made labor involved in the construction of an RV than the Automotive industry. The regulatory agencies involved in both are very different. The contractual relationship between the dealers and manufacturers is totally different. Auto manufacturers can shut down a dealership, not so in the RV world.

Coming from the trailer side of the RV family, all of the RVs manufactured today (in the US) are owned by the same big 3-4 RV manufacturers, with a couple exceptions Brinkley comes to mind. If a new RV manufacturer pops up with a better idea and starts to gain market share they are quickly bought up and molded into the fold. These same manufacturers all set on the RVIA board, they make the rules. The fox is guarding the hen house. Also the insurance industry is not driving constant safety changes into the RV world like they are in the Auto industry. There are just too many differences to compare the two industries.

I don't know first hand but maybe the Motorhome side of the RV family is a little better constructed and regulated as far as the frames and running gear are concerned but still owned by the same big few RV manufacturers.

If the RV industry really wanted to make an immediate big noticeable improvement in customer satisfaction, they should start with the dealership service departments, mostly terrible, absolutely terrible. However the RV manufacturers have no control over the dealerships.

I guess we consider ourselves pretty lucky, as we went into RV ownership with our eyes open. Researched, read, toured factories, crawled through more RV brands before purchase than I care to recall.  At the time in 2018, we thought we picked the best per price point with our fulltiming needs out of the bunch and took our chance. We were not wowed by bling, and nixed hydraulic systems that leak and computer networks and one control software. Give us an old fashioned on/off switch and basic leveling system that works!

Our rig is a 2019 and we have had no major problems with it like windows leaking, broken ripped out frames, suspension, tires, electrical, we have had minor issues with water line leaks. The electrical wiring is atrocious, haphazard at best but we have had no problems with it so far. Our rig had a 1 year warranty on most things, 3 years on some and like 7 years on the roof. The roof warranty is just the material not a total roof warranty. It has never been back to a dealership for repairs, recalls 1.

Friends of ours just last year bought a New Horizons 5er, almost twice the price as ours, nearly every window leaked really bad, I helped him tape up all the leaking windows just so he could tow it back to the factory for repairs.

i guess what I'm saying is we have not been surprised, did, got as much education and researched RVs as we could,  made a decision, bought one and are now living the fulltime life. We knew what we were getting into.

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Steven@146

[Bill w/bus]

Haven't visited for a while but this discussion has been going from before the internet and forums. It used to be around the campfire. Went through a series of motorhomes. One of the best was a 1970 Dodge made by Swinger. Then a 1986 Class C Rockwood. Traded for a 1990 Pace Arrow 30ft. Several problems, once the cabinet over the dinette came crashing down when the three screws finally gave up. Then we went to a Maine Wheels meet in York, Maine. We were surrounded by converted buses.  That was an eye opener. This was May 0f 1994. In March of 1995 I brought home a 1970 GM 4108. This is a 35 foot pushed by a Detroit Diesel and a Spicer 4 speed. By the time I traveled from Macon, GA to Pittston, Maine I could shift without grinding and without use of clutch. Took us two years to complete the conversion. First few trips no problems. No cabinets fell.  Ran well at 9-10 MPG at 70mph. 

We decided that approaching 70 years we really should have an automatic transmission. Not that I couldn't shift but was concerned that my left leg/knee would be bothered with the clutch operation, Found an MCI, a 102A3, that would accomodate everything we wanted for eventual full timing. 

Our biggest problem was the blasted toilet.  Gasket, seal and RV Techs  until i finally figured out why not to buy dometic parts. RV appliances - stove three burner and toilet. Refrigerator, sinks, faucets, clothes washer, clothes drier propane are all standard household.  Took us less than two years to complete the conversion from bus to motorhome. 

If it breaks I know how it was built. 

Bill