Are electric RVs coming?

[RV_]

1 hour ago, bruce t said:

RV none of us know the future. Henry Ford didn't. He, like many others, took a risk. Some blacksmiths never! My whole point is that ideaollogy won't chance squat. Good sensible logic and capitalism will. 

RV replies: again, what ideology? Do you dispute that fossil fuels are finite and will run out? 10, 100, or a thousand years makes no difference. Having a viable replacement is good old fashioned capitalism.

But I wouldn't bet my house on EVs.

RV replies: EVs bought my house and my EV. Sorry fact. They went public as good capitalists and then I capitalistically bought their stock. I then sold that stock and bought my house and cars. I bought more that is doing as well again.

Don't forget hydrogen. Yes there's a lot of work to do. Hydrogen negates the negative "long charge" time of EVs.

Derek Replies: Long charge time? At a Supercharger it takes 30 minutes to charge my Model Y all the way up from empty, the link is above. My Surface Pro devices take longer to charge than my Tesla at a supercharger and like them and my cell phones we just plug them in overnight like I do my Tesla. I am sorry but that is like saying cell phones are no good because a landline does not need a charge? See no ideology here in this arena.

Remember not all power outlets will be or can be super chargers. But regular gas stations may become hydrogen stations. Infrastructure for electricity is way more expensive than hydrogen storage. Who knows. Maybe, like Toyota, there will be a move back to hybrids. A bet each way maybe.

RV replies: Nope not unpacking the gas stations could do hydrogen easier than electric? I'll just say that even way back in 2016 "The most intriguing: Tesla charging stations outnumber gas stations in the island of Manhattan by almost 3-1. Tesla is expanding its network of charging stations to 105 be the end of this month, versus about 40 gas stations in the borough of Manhattan." Source: https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/225088-tesla-charging-stations-outnumber-gas-stations-in-manhattan#:~:text=In the run-up to this week’s New York,in the island of Manhattan by almost 3-1.

Here is the current Tesla Supercharger map. It is best seen full screen, zoom in and out with your scroll wheel: https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-supercharger-locations-2021/

I want clean and green. But I also want something that is affordable and usable.

RV Replies:

"Basic Information about Fuel Cell Stations in the US

According to the research conducted by the AFDC, there are 44 publicly accessible hydrogen stations in the USA. What is more, only two of them aren’t located in California. Due to it, more than 280 million Americans have no access to the hydrogen refueling stations."

As stated all of the US Hydrogen fuel cell stations are in California except for two to serve the rest of the USA Source: https://azgreenmagazine.com/how-many-hydrogen-fuel-stations-are-there-in-the-us/#/find/nearest?fuel=HY

RV Replies: I was talking to the local Ford  stealership just today about wanting to test drive the Ford e150 Lightning Pickup. He said they will start at $40k and are getting very few until later this year, and that like my Rivian, despite being able to configure and get a place in line the Ford's will also be next year, 2023, before supply starts to meet demand. What does that tell you about consumer preferences? Nothing until we see them on the road.

I don't know why you keep talking to a dyed in the wool capitalist about clean and green.

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2022 by RV_

[RV_]

You are right Dutch except for one thing, Tesla pays Supercharger hosts. I don't know how much but I think they also pay for the installation. Check it out on this page: https://www.tesla.com/host-a-supercharger

I'm sorry but I am a Tesla owner so do not know much about existing other chargers. None of this is future it is all already done and growing very fast. Tesla opened a full manufacturing center in China in February 2021 that will produce 10,000 Superchargers a year to start. Not future but already in operation one year less a month:

"The plant will be capable of producing up to around 10,000 Superchargers annually, which would be enough for about 1,000 new stations (assuming 10 stalls per station on average and the power electronics)."

Source:

https://insideevs.com/news/485644/china-tesla-launches-shanghai-supercharger-plant/

So when the Tesla RV TV goes into production next year it can charge even easier worldwide.

Edited January 14, 2022 by RV_

[Zulu]

1 hour ago, bruce t said:

Good sensible logic and capitalism . . .

Now that's an oxymoron.

[RV_]

Bruce you keep saying everything is in the future, Nope everything I am talking about is done and expanding rapidly from all the manufacturers.

But here is a factoid you might find interesting:

"There are 1,201 Tesla Superchargers locations in the United States as of November 25, 2021. The state with the most number of Tesla Superchargers locations in the US is California, with 252 locations, which is 20% of all Tesla Superchargers locations in America."

Source: https://www.scrapehero.com/location-reports/Tesla Superchargers-USA/

However: This kind of shocked me.

"How many gas stations are in the United States? The figure most experts estimate is about 111,000. The Bureau of Labor Statistics estimates that they employ 908,000 people. About 616,000 are cashiers. Across all jobs in the industry, the average pay is about $13. There are about 40 deaths a year in the industry. It would be hard to guess those numbers, but they do account for something, both as a measure of intelligence and an economic barometer."

Source:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/how-many-gas-stations-are-there-in-us-why-its-important-to-know/ar-BB17twjd#:~:text=How many gas stations are in the United,Labor Statistics estimates that they employ 908%2C000 people.

[Dutch_12078]

59 minutes ago, RV_ said:

You are right Dutch except for one thing, Tesla pays Supercharger hosts. I don't know how much but I think they also pay for the installation. Check it out on this page: https://www.tesla.com/host-a-supercharger

I did say there a number of programs that pay the costs, and that would include Tesla of course. I understand that most/all EV charging stations that charge for usage pay the location owner/lessee some percentage of the income. I have no idea of what that percentage might amount to though.

[bruce t]

Guys you are talking USA facts and figures. The USA isn't the world market. You may think so but it ain't.

Tell the folks in African countries about the future of EVs. They don't have the money let alone the electricity. But that's ok. The rich are ok with telling how the poor can live.

The future WILL be determined by the market and capitalism. 

I'm now down the rabbit hole I knew was coming. 

[RV_]

I don't know what the percentage is either Dutch.

The Chinese brands are starting to be competitive like Nio, BYD,and XPENG, are coming on strong adding to choices overseas. Here's a good article on it.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/24/chinese-tesla-rival-xpeng-wants-to-sell-half-of-its-cars-overseas.html

 

[Dutch_12078]

7 hours ago, bruce t said:

Guys you are talking USA facts and figures. The USA isn't the world market. You may think so but it ain't.

Tell the folks in African countries about the future of EVs. They don't have the money let alone the electricity. But that's ok. The rich are ok with telling how the poor can live.

The future WILL be determined by the market and capitalism. 

I'm now down the rabbit hole I knew was coming. 

Derek's link above gives some insight on what's happening in the world EV market place. African countries will likely be a ways behind the EV mainstream, but don't count them out. Over time, EV availability will expand in the used vehicle market that reaches the lower income folks everywhere. Of course there are many people in the world, including in the US, that can't afford any vehicle, regardless of the power source and EV's won't change that of course.

The link below covers the African EV market's current state and future potential:

https://african.business/2021/09/technology-information/opportunities-for-africa-in-electric-vehicle-market/

Edited January 14, 2022 by Dutch_12078

[Kirk W]

I must admit that when I last bought an automobile (almost 2 years ago) I opted for a fuel efficient, gasoline only powered car. We did look at hybrids and might have bought one but for my wife's preference in seats for her bad back. I didn't consider an EV because in our present home-base there is no option to charge one. An EV isn't practical for me at present because we travel into areas that lack recharging facilities, if they exist at all. I still find it just a little strange that the news seems to have forgotten the hybrid automobiles while to me they are a good option for far more drivers??

From Consumer Reports: Hybrids/EVs

Quote

Hybrids provide the best of both worlds, teaming an electric motor with a gasoline engine. By combining a relatively small gasoline engine, an electric motor, and a battery pack, hybrids use electric power at low speeds on light throttle. For higher power demands, the gas engine kicks in. And thanks to regenerative braking, hybrids are able to recapture energy that would otherwise be lost. This way, hybrids get excellent gas mileage and are very low on emissions. They never need to be plugged in and are always ready to go. You fill them up with gas at a regular gas station like a conventional car.

 

[GlennWest]

My plans are not electrical hookup at my place. Bee all solar. I have the option though if I have to. Have not read of anyone 

charging an EV with solar.

[trailertraveler]

On 1/12/2022 at 11:26 AM, trailertraveler said:

Other questions come to mind for boondockers. How big of a solar system would be required to recharge EV batteries in a reasonable amount of time?

I did a little searching to try to answer my own questions. Numerous articles addressed what is required to charge EVs using solar. Most concluded that about 2000 watts of solar panels in a location like AZ or NV would recharge an EV like a Tesla or Volt in a typical day. I recall one article that specified that their calculations were based on the typical EV owner driving about 40 miles per day. Here is a photo of a solar powered rapid charger.  So it appears that a large motor home or fifth wheel may be able to support enough panels to be pretty self-sufficient. 

17 hours ago, RV_ said:

So unless you are trying to say that only motorhomes are RVs, (NOT!) there are already EV RVs and more every day.

Here is a MOTORTREND article December 15 2021 towing and range test with a Rivian R1T.

Looking at the MOTORTREND article and also the specifications for the R1T, the same weight and payload issues discussed so many times on this forum regarding matching tow vehicle and trailer apply. The MOTORTREND test and likely the vehicle specifications were not conducted/developed for a trailer with the frontal area of the typical travel trailer or 5th wheel trailer. As with most Light Duty trucks, the 1760 payload capacity of the R1T will likely be the limiting factor in matching a trailer to the truck. With a 12% tongue weight an 11,000# trailer would leave only 440#s for passengers and additional cargo. An 8,800# 5th wheel with a 20% pin weight would max out the 1760# payload.  I did see mention of a future model with a 20,000# towing capacity but could not find the payload capacity. So at least for now, the available EV tow vehicles would appear to limit the choice of a trailer just as the choice of a 1/2 ton, 3/4 ton or 1 ton pickup does. 

[Kirk W]

11 minutes ago, trailertraveler said:

So at least for now, the available EV tow vehicles would appear to limit the choice of a trailer just as the choice of a 1/2 ton, 3/4 ton or 1 ton pickup does. 

And for the RV it's self, there are very few that have enough solar capability to operate with no power restrictions. While it may be possible, I have yet to see my first fifth wheel with enough solar to use his air conditioner like they would on shore power. 

[GlennWest]

By the math it is doable with mini splits. Not the standard ac.

[Jaydrvr]

3 hours ago, GlennWest said:

My plans are not electrical hookup at my place. Bee all solar. I have the option though if I have to. Have not read of anyone 

charging an EV with solar.

Glenn, check out DIY solar with Will Prowse. He's an interesting young man with an interesting personal story. His YouTube channel is all about solar and batteries. He does actually charge his Tesla from solar and runs most of his home and projects from solar. Probably a lot more involved than most care to do, but it does show that it can be done. Jay

[RV_]

3 hours ago, trailertraveler said:

I did a little searching to try to answer my own questions. Numerous articles addressed what is required to charge EVs using solar. Most concluded that about 2000 watts of solar panels in a location like AZ or NV would recharge an EV like a Tesla or Volt in a typical day. I recall one article that specified that their calculations were based on the typical EV owner driving about 40 miles per day. Here is a photo of a solar powered rapid charger.  So it appears that a large motor home or fifth wheel may be able to support enough panels to be pretty self-sufficient. 

Looking at the MOTORTREND article and also the specifications for the R1T, the same weight and payload issues discussed so many times on this forum regarding matching tow vehicle and trailer apply. The MOTORTREND test and likely the vehicle specifications were not conducted/developed for a trailer with the frontal area of the typical travel trailer or 5th wheel trailer. As with most Light Duty trucks, the 1760 payload capacity of the R1T will likely be the limiting factor in matching a trailer to the truck. With a 12% tongue weight an 11,000# trailer would leave only 440#s for passengers and additional cargo. An 8,800# 5th wheel with a 20% pin weight would max out the 1760# payload.  I did see mention of a future model with a 20,000# towing capacity but could not find the payload capacity. So at least for now, the available EV tow vehicles would appear to limit the choice of a trailer just as the choice of a 1/2 ton, 3/4 ton or 1 ton pickup does. 

Well stated and I agree. RVs for full time RVing require more payload than I am seeing available easily today except for minimalists. 

However for weekenders like I will be once more I will be towing a smaller trailer or fiver, very small like another Scamp 19 foot fiver with an EV, either a teardrop with the Model Y SUV or a small fiver with the Rivian or Cybertruck Either one an EV RV rig - an EV RV rig. They already exist, that is the answer to the OP's question.

 

[trailertraveler]

3 hours ago, RV_ said:

I will be towing a smaller trailer or fiver, very small like another Scamp 19 foot fiver with an EV, either a teardrop with the Model Y SUV or a small fiver with the Rivian or Cybertruck

Considering the towing limitations of gasoline powered SUVs, I was curious about SUV EV's capabilities. I did some searches. This is what I found. Comparison of EV SUV's towing capacity.   With a 350# tongue weight rating, the recommended 10-15% tongue weight for a 3500# travel trailer would be at or over the hitches rating. If the tow ratings are calculated like for most vehicle's they are not based on trailers with the frontal profile of many travel trailers. Hence the common recommendation to select a trailer of 75-80% of the vehicle's maximum tow rating. The smallest r-pod currently listed on the Forrest River website has an unloaded vehicle weight listed as 3159#.  The TAB trailers are listed as having a dry weight of about 2000# plus or minus depending on model. If one applies the recommendations for tow vehicle wheelbase to trailer length this further limits the choices of trailers as SUVs typically have short wheelbases than pickups.  (According to Car and Driver, the Tesla Y has a wheelbase of 113.8".)  As with pairing any tow vehicle with a trailer, lots to consider.

I also found this article on towing a 3000# boat which addresses the reduction in range when towing. I suspect that a trailer with a less aerodynamic profile than a boat would experience a greater reduction.

Edited January 14, 2022 by trailertraveler

[bruce t]

A couple of comments re some of the above comments!

Here in Australia there isn't an issue with running a/c from an all electric off grid RV. It's doable and only needs the right balance of solar and batteries.

Re charging an EV from solar. Keep in mind that folks use their vehicles during the day so wont be at home to plug into solar. When they are home it will be night time! No solar.

We all read tests about all sorts of vehicles. EV and ICEs. Towing capacity, range, etc etc all get quoted. But what are the 'usable' figure? From years of experience we know what towing an RV does to our tow vehicle performance. But what happens with an EV? Is the battery discharge linear? How does weather etc affect the results? Only long term consumer use will give us that information.

Yes change is coming. But lets not rush into it and find a huge OOPS doing so.

[Pappy Yokum]

On 1/12/2022 at 7:29 AM, Kirk W said:

The full story.... Thor Signs With ZF

Smaller size vehicles haven't got it right - just yet, ex: The Chevy Volt fiasco:

Chevy Bolt recall - including exploding batteries on assembly line, Tesla fires, etc

[RV_]

Pappy you have Chevy Volt in your comment and I believe you meant Bolt as in your link.

I have to disagree. The Chevy Bolt failed from the start, GM gave up and completely outsourced the Bolt EV (not the Volt Hybrid) to Lucky Goldstar of Korea from the engineering and design to the battery manufacturing and the car manufacturing. They then shipped the partially assembled car in modules to the GM Orion plant for final assembly of the Bolts. Likely top avoid it being subject to import status which it is but instead call it US made.

Bursting into flames isn’t the only problem the General’s prized Chevy Bolt is facing. A recent Cox Automotive study on EVs shows many prospective EV buyers were not even aware the bowtie brand even offered the compact EV.

Of the first shipment to 2000 customers 200 failed They indicated they were charged and while out driving just stopped stranding the owners. That was several years back. LG made/makes all the batteries causing the fires and problems today too. The Bolt and the LG batteries are the only ones so far with those kinds of problems. Tesla fires have been almost 100% after crashes and almost 100% of the people in them survived. Tesla is using different LG batteries in some of their China Gigafactory Shanghai that LG is making in their new Shaghai China battery plant, not the Korean LG plant that made the Bolt batteries according to my sources. I hope they have their batteries right but we won't see many if any Shanghai Tesla EVs here after the Texas Gigafactory is in full swing and making Cybertrucks too.

However reading things about EVs and not owning one, and making blanket statements that they don't have it right prompts me to ask what you are talking about? What don't they have right? This not challenging you but asking for clarification. I can answer questions about Tesla cars and my Model Y two motor long range version. I have owned it for more that a year having bought it new in June of 2020.

If you are talking about towing, like acceleration and handling, things are different in EVs from Tesla in a very good way.

Here is a towing test done with the same Year and options as my Model Y. It is very informative for those interested in real world tests.

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by RV_

[bruce t]

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for green technology. I think my father was one of the original tree huggers. We made our money in the nursery industry.

My concern is the over promise and under deliver of many of these technologies. The first electric car was a few years back. Not that many. Around 1830 in fact. Since then electric vehicles have been 'coming'. For a decade of more we have been told over and over about new batteries. Well where are they? There is, IMHO, a blinkered view of EVs without regard to other technologies.

I just don't want to buy into Beta when VHS will be the way to go.

 

[sandsys]

1 hour ago, bruce t said:

Re charging an EV from solar. Keep in mind that folks use their vehicles during the day so wont be at home to plug into solar. When they are home it will be night time! No solar.

My solar panels charged my batteries during the day to provide power at night. Why wouldn't charging an EV from solar work the same way--stored during the day then used at night?

Linda

[GlennWest]

But if you drained your batteries charging car what would home run off of? 

[bruce t]

GlennWest don't use logic. For those living in apartments etc what's the solution to charging at home? Not an insignificant proportion of the population. Solar on the roof for which tenant? Charge points in the parking lot? If you have a dedicated parking space. These aren't problems without solutions but solutions that must be found.

I'll repeat. I'm all for change. But change in a responsible way.

[GlennWest]

10 minutes ago, bruce t said:

GlennWest don't use logic. For those living in apartments etc what's the solution to charging at home? Not an insignificant proportion of the population. Solar on the roof for which tenant? Charge points in the parking lot? If you have a dedicated parking space. These aren't problems without solutions but solutions that must be found.

I'll repeat. I'm all for change. But change in a responsible way.

I was directing that at Linda. A home running on Solar and battery.  Solar stops at night. No solar. Charge Ev and drain battery. What am i missing here. Now I know if enough solar and battery was installed but that out of the reach of most.

Edited January 15, 2022 by GlennWest

[Dutch_12078]

8 minutes ago, bruce t said:

GlennWest don't use logic. For those living in apartments etc what's the solution to charging at home? Not an insignificant proportion of the population. Solar on the roof for which tenant? Charge points in the parking lot? If you have a dedicated parking space. These aren't problems without solutions but solutions that must be found.

I'll repeat. I'm all for change. But change in a responsible way.

The solutions already exist:

https://astanehelaw.com/2020/01/21/how-california-tenants-are-charging-electric-vehicles-at-home/

https://www.nyserda.ny.gov/All-Programs/ChargeNY/Charge-Electric/Charging-Station-Programs/Charging-at-Multifamily-Properties

https://evercharge.net/properties

https://www.byton.com/knowledge/k2

There's lots more if you need it...