Below Zero Living!

[AKP]

My wife and I are living in our 2022 Cougar 5th wheel in Montana. First time living in a camper and pretty nervous about the weather getting in the negatives. Anybody have any advice to make our camper as bullet proof against the cold as possible? There are some pipes exposed in the storage area and heard of heat/insulation tape to wrap them, what kind of tape works best? 
thank you! 

[Kirk W]

Cold weather living in an RV can be challenging, but it is possible. Many of us have had some experience doing this but Vern, a contributor here spent last winter in his RV in Montana, not far from Glacier NP and he shared a lot of what he did. He is traveling at this time but with luck he will join the discussion.

Skirting the RV is an absolute must to keep the cold out from below the floor. You need to include the slides when you skirt. Vern even had a source of heat for that space so that may be something that you should consider. I believe that he used the foil wrapped foamboard for skirting and ductaped the seams but did leave a way to get under the RV if needed. Protection for your water supply and the sewer hose are also critical and you need an alternative source of electricity in case of a loss of ouside electricity. 

We could give better advice if we knew a little more about your RV. Do you have dual pane windows? If not you probably will need to cover them with insulartion at least in the coldest weather. Is yours one that has solar capability? It does appear that you would have heated storage areas so those will depend on your furnace running and that means a lot of propane. I suggest that you get the largest propane bottles you can or even better, rent a large tank from a local propane service with keep full services. 

[Second Chance]

As long as you run the main (propane) furnace to keep the basement warm, the pipes and water utilities there should be OK. The main things to consider are:

• Skirt the trailer (as Kirk mentioned - lots of info on this if you search the web)
• Get a good heated water hose (we have a No Freeze Water Hose designed for the "man camps" in the northern tier states and Canada)
• Use the main furnace as your primary heat source - not the electric fireplace or space heaters. Only the main furnace will keep the underbelly and basement from freezing. (Light bulbs and other low-wattage heat sources can be placed in the basement to help).
• If you don't have dual pane windows, Reflectix or plastic "storm" window kits can help with both heat and condensation.
• Moisture control: we use a large compressor-type dehumidifier. The ACs are great dehumidifiers... but you don't use them in the winter. Use the bathroom vent after showers - but only for a short time. Remember that cooking with propane releases water into the interior (a byproduct of propane combustion) in addition to the steam from food. Use the vent hood exhaust fan if vented to the outside - but only as briefly as possible.
• Make "snakes" out of socks and cotton batting to stuff around the bottom corners of slides or other places where wind might blow in cold air. 
• Leave waste tanks closed all the time and drain only when full. Watch the weather forecast and try to do this when the temps are above freezing. This will help keep your stinky slinky from freezing up.
• Personal insulation: It may sound old-fashioned, but I have some long johns that I wear under my pants in very cold weather. We also use an electric bed warmer (fits over the mattress rather than over you like an electric blanket). It draws little power and allows us to set the thermostat lower at night (but still set so the furnace will cycle and keep the basement thawed).
• I have installed some remote sensing devices made by YoLink to monitor the temps in the basement and the front compartment. They require a hub (and an internet connection for the hub), but you can set alarms to let you know if the temps drop below a certain point.
• Monitoring your propane tanks will help you not run out in the middle of the night. I use the Mopeka Tank Check system and it gives me precise readings on my phone (Bluetooth). Learn how to use the auto-switching propane regulator, too.
• I'm assuming that you'll have full hookups but remember that, in case of a power outage, the furnace requires 12VDC to run the thermostat, control board, and fan motor. If your batteries won't last through a cold night, you might want to upgrade your battery bank.

I hope this helps. Stay warm!

Rob

Edited September 17, 2022 by Second Chance

[TXiceman]

AKP, I would not live in your RV through a Montana winter.  It is not built for that kind of cold.  Sure people do it, but it will be a chore.

The heater water hose does nothing to keep the water faucet from freezing.  I would fill the freshwater tank and operate from the tank and refill when the temperature is above freezing.

Another big issue in the winter in these RVs is condensation on the windows and in closets and in the corners.  To help the condensation, you will need to practice good humidity control.  keep a roof vent cracked open, run the vent fan when showering and cooking.  Still the human body expels lots of moisture from the skin and while breathing.  

 

Good luck,

Ken

[sandsys]

49 minutes ago, TXiceman said:

The heater water hose does nothing to keep the water faucet from freezing. 

You might want to build an insulated box to go over the faucet. I've seen that done by a park.

You only need to heat the interior enough to keep it above freezing so wearing long johns and a hat can help your propane last longer. There's a reason people used to wear night caps. My husband wore a stocking cap to bed when winter camping. (I didn't go.)

Linda

[rpsinc]

2 hours ago, TXiceman said:

I would not live in your RV through a Montana winter

I am NOT an expert with this brand/model of 5er BUT I will say that from I have seen of them, they are more suited to VACATION use than fulltime use.

As has been said, living in it during a Montana winter, well, if its a mild winter then that would be better, but a perhaps switching over to a catalytic heater rather than relying on the RV furnace supplied with the trailer(they are only about 30-35% efficient, so imagine all the LP you will consume if temps get to 0).  It becomes much more difficult to make your HOME comfortable.  If you are in a park using an electric heater, or multiple heaters, can help, esp if you allow some heat to migrate to the basement will provide some good tactics.  

All of the other comments made are of value and can help in serously cold temps.  I would add another suggestion, get to know the propane suppliers in the immediate area, you will need them often.

[JimK]

How well this will go highly depends on the specific RV, the construction and amount of insulation.  I have been in my RV down to the low 20s.  It was not suitable!!  That included taking numerous steps which helped.  I added carpet on top of the vinyl flooring.  I had Reflectix covers for the vents, curtains for the windows.  I used foam insulation to cover the skylight and dome in the bathroom.  I even hung a heavy curtain over the door.  Cold air blew in through the kitchen vent.  I had to plug that with rags.  Aside from the cold, humidity was a major issue making baths and cooking difficult.

[Wrknrvr]

    I will give some thoughts on this subject as we wintered in Montana. At the coldest it was -18 degrees.

    So the first thing is, are you mechanical as in doing things yourself.

     The first thing on your list would be to have antifreeze on hand to winterize if needed. This is the most important thing to do first.  This is Incase you must leave because the heating systems have quit.

  And you need to know how to winterize the unit before you need to at 10 degrees. I had a customer that lost power last year when he was not at the rv and everything froze..

 

    Now that those subjects have been covered, the next thing is can you fix things.       In Montana most mobile RV repair people will not answer there phones over the weekends. And still may not call you back for a day or three..

    And warranty stuff will most likely need the rv to go to a repair facility and get in line for appointment date.

 

     Propane?        Your unit most likely using propane for heat.    You must be prepared for a quality of propane to be available for your use. The best way is with a large tank separate from the onboard bottles.    Propane company will hook the tank up. Just do not wait till December to do it.  While using onboard bottles is possible. The small on board tanks may not vaporize the propane fast enough when the weather is real cold. A large on ground tank will do that job.

     The first thing you are fighting is cold weather. Changing bottles in cold weather is not fun. A bottle may only last 2 days when it is cold. Then you need to go get bottles refilled. Are the roads clear and dry to go get bottles filled.

     The last two winters in Montana there is a limited supply of snow plow drivers to clear the roads..

      late December 2020 we were sitting in North West Montana because of the covid situation.       So since I do part time rv repair I decided to be nice and help someone 80 miles away through a mountain valley that was not well plowed.

   I did not wreck.    But I slipped on ice. It sure felt like I broke my hip. After 15 minutes I got back in my Jeep. 80 plus miles to drive. Actually I felt petty good for the situation to sit down in the Jeep. Dam now I cannot fill the gas tank. Cannot get out of the Jeep. Customer had to go to the gas station and fill my tank.

    Get home, o shit.      Now the wife will find out I cannot walk.  I cannot get out of the Jeep. Call the neighbor. Get out of the Jeep. Get a walker. Get to the steps that go up to our deck.

    Now what, cannot get up the steps upright. Get down on all four limbs. Hey I can climb the steps. Bark for someone to open the door, go inside.

 

  So getting into a situation that has changed your wintering in cold weather. Can happen.

   We have a diesel heating system in our fifthwheel. I installed it.    300 gallons of fuel storage. 

    Two 40,000 btu furnaces, I installed a separate 35.000 btu furnace to heat between the rv and the ground. Yes you do need to close the underside of your rv.

   That includes the slides and under the fifthwheel hitch area.

 

   I the next few days I will post pictures on what we did to spend the winter in Montana. Now if your are going to be in the banana belt in Montana. It may be 4 degrees warmer. Yes there is a banana belt in Montana.   Buttttt if you are east the the divide. Hang on to your coveralls. It not only gets much colder quicker. But the wind blowssssssss.

 

   Yes it is doable, some enjoy it.

 

  Do not ask my wife about it. 

       More to follow,    Vern

 

[Wrknrvr]

We have had the heat on up hear for about a week in the am.

 

planning on going away this winter.

[Ray,IN]

Keystone's website touts cold weather living, but never states insulation R-values, Humm.

If your model is stated to be ½T towable, that means  UVW is foremost in Keystone's overall design.

An insulating material’s resistance to conductive heat flow is measured or rated in terms of its thermal resistance or R-value — the higher the R-value, the greater the insulating effectiveness. The R-value depends on the type of insulation, its thickness, and its density.

United States Department of Energy (DOE) definition of R-value

That said, the USDOE recommends a ceiling R-value of 25 for stix N brix houses.

If you do this, plan on leaving all interior cabinet doors and drawers open for air circulation; otherwise moisture condensation on exterior walls may cause mold/mildew problems-or worse.

If you find a way to contact oil workers in MT who spend winters there, I'm sure they qualify as "experts" in cold weather living in a RV trailer.

Edited September 18, 2022 by Ray,IN

[lappir]

3 hours ago, Wrknrvr said:

    I will give some thoughts on this subject as we wintered in Montana. At the coldest it was -18 degrees.

    So the first thing is, are you mechanical as in doing things yourself.

     The first thing on your list would be to have antifreeze on hand to winterize if needed. This is the most important thing to do first.  This is Incase you must leave because the heating systems have quit.

  And you need to know how to winterize the unit before you need to at 10 degrees. I had a customer that lost power last year when he was not at the rv and everything froze..

 

    Now that those subjects have been covered, the next thing is can you fix things.       In Montana most mobile RV repair people will not answer there phones over the weekends. And still may not call you back for a day or three..

    And warranty stuff will most likely need the rv to go to a repair facility and get in line for appointment date.

 

     Propane?        Your unit most likely using propane for heat.    You must be prepared for a quality of propane to be available for your use. The best way is with a large tank separate from the onboard bottles.    Propane company will hook the tank up. Just do not wait till December to do it.  While using onboard bottles is possible. The small on board tanks may not vaporize the propane fast enough when the weather is real cold. A large on ground tank will do that job.

     The first thing you are fighting is cold weather. Changing bottles in cold weather is not fun. A bottle may only last 2 days when it is cold. Then you need to go get bottles refilled. Are the roads clear and dry to go get bottles filled.

     The last two winters in Montana there is a limited supply of snow plow drivers to clear the roads..

      late December 2020 we were sitting in North West Montana because of the covid situation.       So since I do part time rv repair I decided to be nice and help someone 80 miles away through a mountain valley that was not well plowed.

   I did not wreck.    But I slipped on ice. It sure felt like I broke my hip. After 15 minutes I got back in my Jeep. 80 plus miles to drive. Actually I felt petty good for the situation to sit down in the Jeep. Dam now I cannot fill the gas tank. Cannot get out of the Jeep. Customer had to go to the gas station and fill my tank.

    Get home, o shit.      Now the wife will find out I cannot walk.  I cannot get out of the Jeep. Call the neighbor. Get out of the Jeep. Get a walker. Get to the steps that go up to our deck.

    Now what, cannot get up the steps upright. Get down on all four limbs. Hey I can climb the steps. Bark for someone to open the door, go inside.

 

  So getting into a situation that has changed your wintering in cold weather. Can happen.

   We have a diesel heating system in our fifthwheel. I installed it.    300 gallons of fuel storage. 

    Two 40,000 btu furnaces, I installed a separate 35.000 btu furnace to heat between the rv and the ground. Yes you do need to close the underside of your rv.

   That includes the slides and under the fifthwheel hitch area.

 

   I the next few days I will post pictures on what we did to spend the winter in Montana. Now if your are going to be in the banana belt in Montana. It may be 4 degrees warmer. Yes there is a banana belt in Montana.   Buttttt if you are east the the divide. Hang on to your coveralls. It not only gets much colder quicker. But the wind blowssssssss.

 

   Yes it is doable, some enjoy it.

 

  Do not ask my wife about it. 

       More to follow,    Vern

 

Thanks for the info Vern. 

I've done well in the lower Midwest Edmond, OK. , Lawton, OK. , but not so well in Cape Girardeau, MO. I didn't think it was as far more North. I also think the increased humidity affected my Mini Split system. Had to defrost multiple times overnight and each one wakes me up. I don't currently have my LP furnace hooked up for use. It's still in place, but the Coleman thermostat isn't one I'll ever use again. Had a generic with great plans to install it in the "Possum Belly"  with a 33 degree turn on and a 35 degree off, but didn't get it done and can't find the parts again. 

Am contemplating a stay in S. E. Iowa for this winter, but will only do it if I can find a place to park the entire rig inside. I don't think I will need heat, but may find out different if it gets and stays below 0 degrees for very long. 

When I picked up my trailer in November of 2013 it was a beautiful weekend in both Concordia, Mo. and Oskaloosa, Ia. I should have looked at the weather more closely and wouldn't have been as surprised as I was when I was having breakfast at the intersection of HWY 21 and Interstate 80 on my way to my planned stop near Cedar Rapids till just after Christmas. 

It started to snow while I was eating and the roads were wet by the time I started moving. Can't remember if I took the Interstate or the back roads, but found out pretty quickly the roads had been treated with ice melt before the snow started to fall. The temperature dropped below freezing by the time I got to my destination and it was very cold waiting on the 100 gallon fresh water tank to fill before I pulled into my parking spot. Darkness had also fallen well before I hoped it would have. Over the weekend the temps dropped to negative 12 and my "Basement HVAC" system was found to not be appropriately sized for the "Upper Midwest" as I had been told. I had several electric heaters plugged in and survived for the most part. I'm sure it damaged my batteries because unbeknownst to me at the time, my inverter was wired up to power my entire coach and not just the fridge as I requested. I'd come home to find the inverter tripped and the power off. (later found out the supply line for the property had been damaged. The next summer they had to dig it up and repair it.) The water only froze the first night and I took the trailer back to the factory to have a gas furnace installed. 

My 40 gallon tanks were a pain to change and would only last a couple days each. Thankfully the temps got a bit higher and I survived till my arrival in Florida just before New Year. 

I haven't stayed past the first of November in Iowa since. 

Rod

[Wrknrvr]

Edited September 19, 2022 by Wrknrvr

[Wrknrvr]

   So the photo above is my hydrant cover. It contains two filters, a water softener and a separate hose connection for a garden hose. 

   Also you see a large black plastic tube leaving the box. It has the waterline and a heat tape installed in it.   That large black cover is actually a 6” plastic duct for a home heating system.  I normally leave the line connected until steady below 10 degrees temperatures are happening over night. That is your judgement there. I do keep say 2/3 of a tank of fresh water on board. For those times.     If it needs refilled, just do that as needed. Once temperatures get cold enough I remove the equipment in the heated box cover. Yes I do keep a heat tape in the box.

 

 

     So the next advise I would suggest is to visit a few campgrounds in the area and look at what other people are doing for the winter time in a rv. They may not be allowed to put up skirting until a certain date.

 

    I did use 1 1/2” pink styrofoam board to insulate the underbelly. The first thing I did was to build a frame work out of scrap wood from Home Depot. Most of your pieces of wood are going to be short. So just cut out what you need.

    In Montana there probably are people that will enclose your rv if needed.

 

   The other thing that should be addressed is 12vdc charging capabilities. This is important as your furnace operates on 12vdc. Yes your rv has a converter. 

   You need to be prepared to charge your batteries especially from outside shore power.    That shore power could be a problem if it is not available. For any reason.     Will your tow vehicle charge the batteries.

   The other thing that a rver should have is a 10 amp battery charger with them. Just Incase your converter cannot charge your batteries. Just had a customer plugged his rv in after sitting awhile. Batteries were dead. As he plugged his unit it the dead batteries overloaded the charger. It blew the converter fuses.  He installed new fuses plugged it in again. Now it will not charge at all. I was talking to him over the phone about said subject. Told him to charge the batteries separately. One battery only had 9.6 volts. He then took then to NAPA and had them tested. He replaced one of them?  

 

    I stoped the next day and tested the system. The converter will not charge now. He needs to replace the converter.

     Just thinking, will post more in a day or two.

 

     Vern

[Darryl&Rita]

In the frozen northern tundra, we've seen entire RVs wrapped in insulated tarps, porches added beside the RV with a wood heater inside, foam insulation added to slide exteriors and as skirting, you name it.

It's hard work to live inn an RV below freezing, and harder the colder it gets. You always need to have an escape plan for the day you can't put enough BTU into the RV. This can come from a broken part on the furnace, a late propane delivery, or propane not vapourizing fast enough in the tank to run the heater.

An apartment or basement suite is more money, at first blush, but the expenses add up for lot rent, propane, and power. The uncertainty is also a heavy weight, if you're away from your home for any length of time daily.

[lappir]

Good information. I purchased my first "Off Grid" item today.  A Natures Head Toilet. It need's 12 volt electric, but everything else is either supplied my me or what appears to be available organic matter. Solar is my next big thing. It's pretty big, so it might take a bit. 

 

Rod

[Wrknrvr]

I just looked at a video on YouTube about your model of fifthwheel.

 

  I was looking for how much of the underside of your fifthwheel is covered from the elements. I can see the rear of the rv is probably not covered as in either a plastic cover or metal from side to side or not.

    But looking at the sides of the rv it looks like the body lines are straight. So that would make skirting in much easier. I would suggest that the front also be enclosed. Look around the hitch where it enters the body. For air leeks. Every little bit of air stopped with make things more comfortable and  cheaper to keep interior temps respectable..

 

 

    I will say that this is from real life experience.

 

    When bought a fifthwheel and moved in in mid January in Pennsylvania. While hooking up the electrical cord that day, snow was flying sideways.

   But we made the decision to go rving full time with nooooooo time to figure this stuff out.   .

 

   Well the heat was on, the fridge was working and the tv was operational. We did it.

    So heck it was time to go to bed. Got undressed, crawled into bed,     And crawled back out. Told the wife to get in and get my side warm first.  She did what I did.

   Ok it will warm up if we stay still, long enough.

   That had to be one of the coldest nights I ever slept anywhere. Even in boy scouts, or at hunting camps. Or just in a van, in Montana, in a down filled sleeping bag.

    Well the next day I figured out the slide was about 3” from being out the whole way out.  The slide seal was not against the outside wall.   The wife was sorta stiff the next morning. 

 

 

   Where in Montana are you located