When will it be time?

[Kirk W]

Lately there has been a great deal of discussion among our family members about what we feel free to do now, what comes next, and when will we feel safe to do those things again? Since we are both 80 or almost (I'm the youngster 😇), we pretty much stayed at home, ordered groceries for pick-up and most other things online, for the past year. This spring things were looking much better so we traveled to Branson for a week with our kids from KY and we did our staff jobs for Escapade, spending a month on the road traveling to and from, and visiting family along the way. Lately the newer versions of covid have been threatening again and hospitals here in the Dallas are are near capacity and most of us are wearing masks again. It is still early but most areas do seem to be gaining ground on the outbreak and breakthrough cases seem to have begun to decline. That leads up to the point that we are struggling with. How will we know just when we should feel comfortable to travel, fly, visit other countries, take a cruise, stay in some vacation hotspot, or any of dozens of other possibilities? We are trying to define some measurement or condition at which we can say, this is behind us and we can do all of those things we have put off once more, worry free. 

We all seem to pretty much agree that we should be careful, but to what extent? What measurement do you use? I have had the same partner, playmate, caretaker, and romantic interest now since we made it permanent back just before Christmas of 1962. We want to spend a bunch more holidays together and we know that we are both classed as high risk. It isn't that we sit around and do nothing, but our world has shrunken dramatically since we returned home in January of 2019. How about some of your personal thoughts, with nobody right or wrong, just your views? 

[mptjelgin]

Teri and I traveled to Costa Rica for two weeks in July, and just got back from a couple of weeks in Ecuador. We are scheduled to visit Colombia (South America) in February, a trip that will by then have been delayed almost two years. We are both fully vaccinated and will get boosters when available and appropriate. The airports and airlines are taking sensible precautions, and the foreign countries we've visited are frankly doing a better job of masking and social distancing than we see here in Texas. Our activities center around birding, hiking, and photography, and those activities are all outdoors and socially distanced.  

We are still taking sensible precautions, but we are getting on with our lives. We have additional trips planned within the US, but are always ready to change plans or pull the plug if indicated. The vast majority of hospitalizations and serious illness are among the unvaccinated, so we feel relatively safe.  But nothing is 100%.

[Ray,IN]

Well, Sep. 8 we took a day-trip to a nearby city to meet DW's nephews(only living relatives). Since it was her only relatives, we met them maskless, then we all went(we work masks) to Texas Road House for dinner. Three days later I became very sick, felt like I had been body-slammed.

Turned out we tested positive for COVID-19 last Wed., after we were able to drive to the local hospital for testing. I'm still recovering, DW isn't doing so well, she may have COVID pneumonia. I take her for chest X-rays tomorrow to check.

Let me tell you, I was so sick I didn't eat or drink, lost 7# in 10 days, slept for 48 hrs. straight. DW shook me and yelling to wake up. I suspect I would have died had she not forced me awake. This constant headache feels like I've been on a 10-day drunk. Everything still tastes like cardboard.

Our Dr. said I would have died had we not been vaccinated.

 

P.S. The news today said people are once again beginning to hoard TP and sanitizers. Looks like we're going to repeat 2020.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Ray,IN

[RV_]

2 hours ago, Ray,IN said:

Well, Sep. 8 we took a day-trip to a nearby city to meet DW's nephews(only living relatives). Since it was her only relatives, we met them maskless, then we all went(we work masks) to Texas Road House for dinner. Three days later I became very sick, felt like I had been body-slammed.

Turned out we tested positive for COVID-19 last Wed., after we were able to drive to the local hospital for testing. I'm still recovering, DW isn't doing so well, she may have COVID pneumonia. I take her for chest X-rays tomorrow to check.

Let me tell you, I was so sick I didn't eat or drink, lost 7# in 10 days, slept for 48 hrs. straight. DW shook me and yelling to wake up. I suspect I would have died had she not forced me awake. This constant headache feels like I've been on a 10-day drunk. Everything still tastes like cardboard.

Our Dr. said I would have died had we not been vaccinated.

Ray I'm so sorry you went through that. And glad you made it through. I hope alll will be well with your DW too.

We are getting our boosters this coming week I think, and hope that gets us safer if we keep full COVID precautions. Especially here in El Paso County where we have the highest infection rate in Colorado.

keep us posted Bud.

[bigjim]

Absolutely best thoughts for you and your spouse.  Just 2 days ago I  found out a young guy of 39 had passed from it on Sep.2 leaving behind a wife and 3 boys.  I am currently not feeling generous towards folks that are willing to put others at risk without even trying, so hang tough so we don't get more bad news.

[RV_]

3 hours ago, Kirk W said:

We all seem to pretty much agree that we should be careful, but to what extent? What measurement do you use?

Full COVID precautions until the hospitals have been cleared or near empty of COVID patients.

We had only a few weeks we relaxed until this last unvaccinated pandemic. We wear masks at all times in public when six foot distancing is not in our control - outside too. We will not go out to eat but we rarely did before anyway. We usually feel disappointed as we both can cook very well. We do go out and pick up take out and always have. But not now so much because many places you have to go inside. Taking our masks off inside to eat, or anything is unthinkable to us. No inside concerts or athletic games period. Outside are out too.

When to stop precautions? Just keep track of scientific articles and reports on hospital filled capacities. Right now, in many places, hospitals are 90% to 100% full. Here we are at 90% and still rising.

Not only are we up the proverbial creek if we get COVID vaccinated or not, but if we are in an accident, MI, stroke, mass shooting, or any other emergent health crisis, we may not get timely care enough to survive it because of others.

So for us it is hunker down time again until we see it clear. We can't control when we die, or how. But we CAN control how we live. In WWII our boys and girls were "over there" for four years in some cases. How was that possible when today folks think wearing a mask inside the store for 15 minutes is too much of a sacrifice?

Med Lab Tech here for years of my career after being hospital infection control and a medic for four years before Cross training into Combat arms. And as far as not trusting it and saying it hasn't been tested see the picture below:

 

 

[RV_]

11 minutes ago, bigjim said:

Absolutely best thoughts for you and your spouse.  Just 2 days ago I  found out a young guy of 39 had passed from it on Sep.2 leaving behind a wife and 3 boys.  I am currently not feeling generous towards folks that are willing to put others at risk without even trying, so hang tough so we don't get more bad news.

So sorry to hear of young folks dying needlessly.

Well said Jim, I am not feeling generous towards them either.

I'll second your urging to "Hang tough!"

Edited September 26, 2021 by RV_

[Kirk W]

22 minutes ago, bigjim said:

Just 2 days ago I  found out a young guy of 39 had passed from it on Sep.2 leaving behind a wife and 3 boys.

I hear your pain. I might remind readers that one of our forum participants lost the battle with covid last spring. For me the closest was a friend from our just previous home area whose family had been vaccinated but he was a hold out, got sick, went to the ER, was intubated, and lost the battle on Sept. 4, when he would have turned 70 on Sept. 8. 

[Jim & Alice]

My wife and I are currently in our shared (daughter & family) Western Michigan home, attending personal medical needs and helping our daughter with her pregnancy.    We both have been fully vaccinated, college student son (living with us) the same, daughter 1 of two doses.   We have Relatives & Friends & Neighbors (Michigan, Louisiana, Texas, Arizona) that have died from covid, vax status unknown but likely not vaccinated.   Alice and I routinely practice standard CDC recommendations, but living in the same house as grandchildren... there is risk.   I am getting a slowly built-up anger at those that deny covid seriousness.   Just don't know what else to do...

Edited September 26, 2021 by Jim & Alice

[bigjim]

1 hour ago, Kirk W said:

I hear your pain. I might remind readers that one of our forum participants lost the battle with covid last spring

"DevilishJim"  I presume.

[LindaH]

We spent the winter of 2020/2021 near Yuma as we've done for the past several years.  For the most part, we continued to order groceries online for pickup and when we wanted to "eat out" we also ordered online for pickup.  Unfortunately, we may not be able to make the trip south this winter due to DH's medical concerns.  If we are able to go, it won't be until sometime in December.

[buckeyefan4]

When will it be time is the million dollar question I think we're all asking!  For us, we will continue to social distance, wear masks in public and follow safety protocols until the numbers for the latest Delta variant surge decline.  I don't know what the exact measurement will be, but we'll be on the side of caution.  Our hope is we don't see yet another variant of this virus that mutates and has more of an effect on those of us who decided to get vaccinated.

Unfortunately this virus became politicized early on in the pandemic.  People that have been vaccinated from other diseases from an early age have suddenly become skeptical of science and expertise.  So we have a whole group turning away from an approved vaccine and taking horse paste.  

As long as we have 30%-40% of the American people "thinking" that way it will be harder to get past this pandemic.  We don't plan on letting their selfishness and ignorance kill us.

[Kirk W]

On 9/26/2021 at 10:35 AM, buckeyefan4 said:

We don't plan on letting their selfishness and ignorance kill us.

That is the issue. It seems to me that there is likely to be at least some added risk to most activities outside of our immediate circles for a very long time. I am at a point in life where I am aware that I may not have that many years left with both of us able to do things so we have to make some decisions. We had begun to "spend down" our long term funds since we probably have no more than 15 or so years, at most to do things together, quite possibly less. For the first time in my life I have money to spend that I am not sure what to do with. We did very little in 2020 and have been somewhat limited in 2021. We are looking to change that before 2022 begins. 

[Dutch_12078]

 We haven't missed our annual January to April "southern tour" yet, although winter 2020 was interesting when the Florida state parks shut down the day after we left our last one on schedule. Then three of our private park overnight stops on our way north were shut down or had to implement 14 day minimum stays either the day or day after we left. This past winter was much better with no shutdowns, just various masking recommendations or mandates. With our preference for state and national parks, typically with well spaced sites, we feel fairly safe with our travel choices to date. Once again we expect to leave for the south right after spending the holidays with family this winter. Each state/national park we'll stay at will be a return visit to a familiar park and in most cases, familiar site as well. My wife and I are both fully Moderna vaccinated, and will likely be eligible for booster shots before we leave. Since my wife has COPD and is on oxygen, we still mask up in stores and other situations where distancing isn't possible. So much of this seems like the "new normal" now, but we do wish the "old normal" would return at some point. The sooner the better...

[FULLTIMEWANABE]

Hey Kirk, I sure feel for you and Pam and the dilemma you find yourselves in, especially when we've had more time on this side of the dirt than is possible going forwards.   Alas, we are all in the same boat and there for sure will be no way to predict when this pandemic may turn into being endemic.   Heck we've got folks double vaccinated that have contracted the Delta Variant in ICU here now, and yet the solution seems to be a 3rd dose of what's not worked to fight it, that many are struggling to comprehend logically.   With regards to more mutations like the Delta Variant, look how antibiotics resistance reacted with changes over time and the issues caused and addressed for many many years now.    

Consider that the last guy interviewed here in Canada (I think it was 2008 before he died), told of how it was almost 6 years before he recalls as a young child being able to go about as a "new" normal following the Spanish flu.   There was no vaccine and we are still dealing with it somewhat today.   Whatever life throws at us we find a way to deal with it, and if it's Lemons we'll make some Lemonade.

Everyone of us has "personal" choices to make regarding our own bodies and our own risk factors in all this, and absolutely no one can tell anybody they should do this or that or throw caution to the wind.   I was very sick in my Twenties to the point I'd be passed out in a heap often, going white as a sheet that folks noticed and their commentary scared me more, and after months it got to the stage where I said "I need to hurry up living or hurry up dying cos I can't do both".  Harsh but it was the kick up my butt I needed to give myself and stop wallowing in self pity.   I've gone on to live a most tremendous life full of the best memories and experiences I could have ever wished for with zero regrets and lots of learning from mistakes of course.   With a different attitude it could have been a whole different story.

As a family, and yes some are vaccinated and some are not and we respect their reasonings on both counts with zero bullying, we have just carried on as much as normal being very aware of avoiding any dense type gatherings, masking except when out walking alone in our own bubble, sanitising immediately after contact from touching anything whatsoever outside the home, and definitely keeping a tremendous distance or turning away when others try to crowd out our personal space (generally for us 10 to 12ft please!).   With masks on and turning away from the person we love, we do still hug tight those we know are as astute as we are being.   Is there a risk?  Absolutely!   Again we had to make the decision to hurry up living as best we can for now or hurry up dying.

I would say to any and all folks during this very long season we are finding ourselves in, do what feels right for you.   Assess what impact to your life enjoyment doing a said thing or not would have on you or loved ones that surround you and matter to you.

We have to learn to live with this for the long foreseeable future unfortunately.   Alas as with all opinions, everyone has one or more and some are more forthright in their beliefs without concern or understanding for recipients that might be on the other side of the fence.

Now Kirk, you and Pam go and enjoy the "Highlight of your Twilight".   Health as priority no 1, time's the next most precious commodity any of us have and can never be replaced.   Time to wrap up here and head out in the RV now for 4 days fishing and kayaking, for our last trip before winterising likely.  We've sure missed the good ole USA haunts we normally enjoy but we are darned we're going to lose another year like we did 2020.

Safe and happy travels to everyone, keep making memories even if they aren't quite what you'd hoped for.

FTW.

[Dutch_12078]

There may be some small numerical variations in Canada, but I don't know how you can say the vaccines are not working when it's clear that "breakthrough" infections remain quite rare and the numbers easily fall within the expected ~5% of the vaccinated population where the vaccines are less effective. None of the COVID-19 vaccines are 100% effective, just as no vaccine in history has been 100% effective. But when ~99% of hospital COVID-19 admissions are unvaccinated, it's pretty clear what's working and what isn't.

[RV_]

Well said Dutch. I might add that folks who don't trust the docs about the vaccine suddenly want their care when they contract the virus. There are lots of documented folks who say they don't know what is in the vaccines who when admitted to ICU do not question what is in the anti inflammatory and pain relief drugs, among others they are administered. As a Med Lab tech like with the annual flu vaccine, we take and are about to again after we get our Pfizer booster this Thursday, the antibodies and mRNA wane and need to be reactivated.

Vaccines not working??

Facts:

There have been 686,639 COVID Deaths in the US.

Source: https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#trends_dailydeaths

There have been 4,493 deaths in the US from Breakthrough infections, with 14,643 hospitalized non-fatal infections.

Excerpt:

"Hospitalized or fatal COVID-19 vaccine breakthrough cases reported to CDC as of September 20, 2021

As of September 20, 2021, more than 181 million people in the United States had been fully vaccinated against COVID-19.

During the same time, CDC received reports from 50 U.S. states and territories of 19,136 patients with COVID-19 vaccine breakthrough infection who were hospitalized or died.

Total number of vaccine breakthrough infections reported to CDC

	Deaths		Hospitalized, non-fatal*
Total	N=4,493		N=14,643
Females	1,977	(44%)	7,035	(48%)
People aged ≥65 years	3,882	(86%)	10,136	(69%)
Asymptomatic or not COVID-related**	839	(19%)	2,912	(20%)

*This table separates all reported vaccine breakthrough infections that resulted in hospitalization and/or death into two columns.  While most deaths were also among hospitalized individuals, a small number were not.

**Includes cases in which the patient did not have symptoms of COVID-19, or their hospitalization or death was not COVID-related. For example, people may be hospitalized for reasons other than COVID-19, such as an auto accident, and test positive when screened upon hospital admission.

Previous data on all vaccine breakthrough cases reported to CDC from January–April 2021 are available.

How to interpret these data

The number of COVID-19 vaccine breakthrough infections reported to CDC are an undercount of all SARS-CoV-2 infections among fully vaccinated persons, especially of asymptomatic or mild infections. National surveillance relies on passive and voluntary reporting, and data are not complete or representative. These surveillance data are a snapshot and help identify patterns and look for signals among vaccine breakthrough cases.

Information on patients with vaccine breakthrough infection who were hospitalized or died will continue to be updated. Studies are being conducted in multiple U.S. sites that will include information on all vaccine breakthrough infections regardless of clinical status to supplement the national surveillance.

COVID-19 vaccines are effective

• To date, no unexpected patterns have been identified in the case demographics or vaccine characteristics among people with reported vaccine breakthrough infections.
• COVID-19 vaccines are effective. CDC recommends that everyone 12 years of age and older get a COVID-19 vaccine as soon as they can.
• A vaccine breakthrough infection happens when a fully vaccinated person gets infected with COVID-19. People with vaccine breakthrough infections may spread COVID-19 to others.
• Even if you are fully vaccinated, if you live in an area with substantial or high transmission of COVID-19, you will be better protected if you wear a mask when you are in indoor public places.
• Currently, CDC is recommending that moderately to severely immunocompromised people receive an additional dose of mRNA COVID-19 vaccine at least 28 days after a second dose of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine or Moderna COVID-19 vaccine."

Source: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html

I am open to documented peer reviewed studies.

Safe travels folks.

 

Edited September 29, 2021 by RV_

[Barbaraok]

Since most breakthrough cases are those >65, the data also point to why the boosters are needed.  People our age tend to have immune Systems that are not as robust as those of a younger age, hence the need for the boosters and also why those with impaired immune systems are more likely to die even though they have had the initial immunizations.   But by and large deaths are of the unvaccinated!

[RV_]

Here's where we are in today's news as our hospitals stop elective procedures and are being overwhelmed. Facts.

Excerpt:

Coronavirus

By Sydnee Stelle

today at 3:20 PM

Published September 28, 2021 11:59 AM

"COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. (KRDO) -- With the recent surge in COVID-19 cases, Colorado Springs hospitals are stretched thin.

KRDO toured Centura's Penrose Hospital early Tuesday morning to get an idea of what they're dealing with amid these rising case numbers. As of Tuesday morning, Penrose Hospital had around 420 in-patients. 375 of them are adults. Roughly 75 of them are COVID-positive -- and of those, 85-90% are unvaccinated.

The rise in case numbers is causing a strain on the hospital system, including the following potential issues.

They've cancelled or postponed elective surgeries to free up hospital capacity

The CEO of Penrose-St. Francis Health Services, Dr. Brian Erling, told KRDO that they don't have the capacity to continue many elective surgeries right now. They've had to pause those procedures to be able to care for patients with immediate medical needs. Just because procedures can be labeled as elective, it doesn't mean they aren't serious.

"If you're the spine patient that needs to have spine surgery to stop your opioid use and get you back to work, that's serious. Now, Can it wait a couple of weeks? That's a conversation between the patient and the doctor," Dr. Erling said.

Labor shortage is burning out existing healthcare workers

The sheer amount of stress placed on healthcare workers amid the pandemic has forced much of their workforce to either leave healthcare and pursue another field or retire early.

"Another issue that has compounded our shortage is that kids had to stay home from school. So many of our working moms and dads stayed home to homeschool, so that added another layer," said Penrose's Chief Nursing Officer Rose Ann Scibona.

Source with much more:

https://krdo.com/health/coronavirus/2021/09/28/covid-19-surge-creates-problems-for-colorado-springs-hospitals/

Edited September 29, 2021 by RV_

[RV_]

So who is Dr. Jha who wrote the facts above?

About Dean Jha

A practicing physician, Ashish K. Jha,  M.D., MPH, is recognized globally as an expert on pandemic preparedness and response as well as on health policy research and practice. He has led groundbreaking research around Ebola and is now on the frontlines of the COVID-19 response, leading national and international analysis of key issues and advising state and federal policy makers. He comes to the Brown School of Public Health after leading the Harvard Global Health Institute and teaching at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health and Harvard Medical School.

Dr. Jha has published more than two hundred original research publications in prestigious journals such as the New England Journal of Medicine and the BMJ, and is a frequent contributor to a range of public media. He has extensively researched how to improve the quality and reduce the cost of health care, focusing on the impact of public health policy nationally and around the globe.

Before joining the Brown School of Public Health, Dr. Jha was a faculty member at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health (HSPH) since 2004 and Harvard Medical School since 2005. He was the Faculty Director of the Harvard Global Health Institute from 2014 until September 2020. From 2018 to 2020, he served as the Dean for Global Strategy at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health.

[Kirk W]

Now all we need to do is to get those not yet vaccinated to read the last two posts and then believe what they say. 

I guess what it really comes down to is that each one of us must figure out what works for us. It is a subject that Pam & I have discussed a great deal of late, but still do not have any answer for. 

Edited September 29, 2021 by Kirk W

[sandsys]

"Body autonomy is a critical component of the right to privacy protected by the Constitution, as decided in Griswold v. Connecticut (1965), McFall v. Shimp (1978), and of course Roe v. Wade (1973)."

Each person gets to decide whether or not to receive the vaccine. But, deciding not to do so may impact their lives in ways they may not have considered including employment. Also, deciding once does not mean a person no longer as a right to change his/her mind.

Linda

[Barbaraok]

Except in times of pandemics when the Supreme Court has upheld mandatory vaccination.   Or in the case of Typhoid Mary, they ended up locking her away because she was spreading disease.  

[Ropeshaft]

9 hours ago, Kirk W said:

Now all we need to do is to get those not yet vaccinated to read the last two posts and then believe what they say. 

I guess what it really comes down to is that each one of us must figure out what works for us. It is a subject that Pam & I have discussed a great deal of late, but still do not have any answer for. 

I do take all the CDC recommended precautions and I will get the Moderna booster when it is available.  But at the same time I am not going to stop living before I stop living.  I don’t do everything I did before the pandemic but I’m not going to live in a bubble either.  That’s my take on it but I respect the choices others make. 

[Kirk W]

1 hour ago, Ropeshaft said:

I don’t do everything I did before the pandemic but I’m not going to live in a bubble either.  That’s my take on it but I respect the choices others make. 

That has been ours also, but the challenge is where to draw the line, and to increase what you do. We are doing much more today than at this time last year, but not nearly as much as at this time 2 years ago. It is comforting that there was no spike caused by Escapade and the latest is that none came from Labor Day gatherings either. There are clearly signs of improvement so it continues to be hopeful. Maybe I'll start a poll of what people are willing to do. I wonder if there would be significant interest in participating in one just for the forums?