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NPS Considering Limiting Crowding in Zion NP


Al F

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Posted

As mentioned in the article, access to some backcountry areas is already in practice. Yellowstone has limited access to backcountry camping for decades by restricting camping to designated sites and requiring a permit. Availability of parking is often a defacto method of limiting access and avoiding overcrowding in many parks and recreation areas. The Zion shuttle system which runs from outside the park at five minute intervals may actually be a contributor to the over crowding on the trails.

The one that dies with the most toys is still dead!

Posted

There's a saying used often by rangers of the national parks "Our parks are getting loved to death".

 

Folks already make reservations for their trips and accommodations so making them to coincide when they can enter the park wouldn't be a big difficulty for most visitors. People are used to having to make reservations although we surely balk at it and try not to do so. It's the locals who can go on the spur of a moment that would be greatly inconvenienced.

 

I read the above link and looking at the first picture of the Narrows hike we would hate to have to be there at those times. We've done the hike in November but we were practically the only ones we could see at times on the hike until rounding the next bend. It was an awesome, beautiful experience being able to really see the canyon for its beauty.

 

In comparison, the picture of the Subway hike where reservations are required, is much more appealing. Without the mass of people you can actually see the canyon.

 

There are plenty of other areas of the park to explore other than the main part where most folks go. However, access is limited in those areas, hikes are fewer and more difficult/longer and facilities (bathrooms) are few. The majority don't want to deal with those 'inconveniences'. They want to go where everything is within easy reach.

 

During the past few years of visitation in our national parks we could see this coming, not just for Zion but for some other major parks - Rocky Mtn., Yosemite, Yellowstone and others. Hope they can work out a good plan.

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Posted

The same is happening here in IL at a very popular state park. They have had to close the park on holidays at various times because they had no more available parking. The park has 2 million visitors each summer thanks to advertising they did, and a very beautiful park. The general public basically trashes the park and destroys things when the crowds are this large. They do not have the personnel necessary to keep all areas monitored or even keep up with cleaning and stocking the restrooms even though it is continuous throughout the weekend. I suspect the national parks also see this. The land can only take so much traffic before it starts to suffer and the beauty is destroyed.

Pat DeJong

Posted

I work in a state park and see the same thing happening here. Too many people, trampling all over the place. No available campsites for most of the summer. People on hiking trails with a pick and shovel digging up rocks. People running across the field to harass the wildlife, etc. The park can handle only so many visitors. We get full and visitors start to fight over parking spaces and we have to call a park ranger. The only solution I can think of is limiting the number of visitors at peak times.

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Posted

Many of OUR national parks have cryptobiotic soil. I have seen the long-term, often permanent damage to the soil by visitors who are ignorant of/don't care about this fragile soil- in spite of signage.

I support the NPS in limiting patronage to manageable size.

 

2000 Winnebago Ultimate Freedom USQ40JD, ISC 8.3 Cummins 350, Spartan MM Chassis. USA IN 1SG retired;Good Sam Life member,FMCA ." And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you--ask what you can do for your country.  John F. Kennedy 20 Jan 1961

 

Posted

Well I for one don't want to be told when I can visit a national park. Who gets first preference, US citizens or all the overseas bus tours (money) with riders mis-behaving and the NPS simply slapping their wrists?

Posted

Well I for one don't want to be told when I can visit a national park. Who gets first preference, US citizens or all the overseas bus tours (money) with riders mis-behaving and the NPS simply slapping their wrists?

Often to our regret, money makes everything else work. Ever since the Dept. of the interior required the NPS to become self-sufficient, that is true for them too. Just like RV parks near popular tourist attractions, making reservations will eventually become necessary for visiting our National Park System as population multiplies and more foreign visitors wish to visit.

 

2000 Winnebago Ultimate Freedom USQ40JD, ISC 8.3 Cummins 350, Spartan MM Chassis. USA IN 1SG retired;Good Sam Life member,FMCA ." And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you--ask what you can do for your country.  John F. Kennedy 20 Jan 1961

 

Posted

As one who has some sympathy for the idea I could see lots of problems with it. How could people, say, from Back East doing their trip of a lifetime to swing through all the Western Parks ever line up reservations under such a system. A lot of them are working stiffs with a very limited time frame too.

 

Me thinks Yosemite should be limited to about 25% of the current glut during the summertime. The Times Square atmosphere there pretty much guts any real enjoyment of Yosemite. I have hiked the 185 mile Tahoe Yosemite Trail continuing on down into the valley and believe me it is a shocking experience coming out into that zoo.

 

One other minor little problem though. Those parks are surrounded by local business people who are represented by members of Congress. Think cutting down on visitation could cause a little problem there?

Posted

Fine . then keep doing what's doing and there will be a lot of nothing left , for anyone .

 

Generally , the family of lower income folks will not get to see the national parks , anyway .

 

I've never been to a national park and , at this point , I don't really care to because of the crowds .

Goes around , comes around .

Posted

Interesting view, particularly since there are many less known parks that are rarely if ever busy and some are down right lonely.

 

Thanks for that link , Kirk .

 

There are a few on that list that peak interest . I really like the National park of American Samoa . But , I'd definitely have to fit the Monaco with a good set of floats and sails . ;)

 

Seriously , if we find ourselves close to them , they would be worth a visit .

Goes around , comes around .

Posted

I have to agree with Kirk. While Yosemite, Yellowstone & Zion and, at times, Arches can be zoos, particularly during summer holiday weekends, most of the National Parks are well worth visiting, and rarely crowded.

 

I rarely make reservations, and with the exception of the fore mentioned parks, have always found a campsite, and enjoyed hiking the trails. Canyonlands, Capitol Reef, the Tetons, for example, are not often overcrowded.

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Posted

Fine . then keep doing what's doing and there will be a lot of nothing left , for anyone .

 

Generally , the family of lower income folks will not get to see the national parks , anyway .

 

I've never been to a national park and , at this point , I don't really care to because of the crowds .

I honestly can't wrap my mind around that.

 

We live/work in Big Bend National Park in southwest Texas, one of the least visited of all the CONUS national parks. We get around 300,000 visitors each year, mostly around the Christmas and spring breaks. The rest of the year is sparsely visited. And since the park is larger than the state of Rhode Island, it is very easy to feel like you have the entire place to yourself. Crowds aren't a problem for us here.

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Posted

As one who has some sympathy for the idea I could see lots of problems with it. How could people, say, from Back East doing their trip of a lifetime to swing through all the Western Parks ever line up reservations under such a system. A lot of them are working stiffs with a very limited time frame too.

In reading on the various forums, the folks that are still working... and many of them from the eastern states, already make reservations for their whole 2-week vacation.

 

Pat & Pete: Where do you travel that you're never near a national park or national monument to visit? These are all treasures and you need to start including them in your travels. They all have something to offer be it scenery or history.

Full-timed for 16 Years
Traveled 8 yr in a 2004 Newmar Dutch Star 40' Motorhome
and 8 yr in a 33' Travel Supreme 5th Wheel

Posted

Basically , we travel North in the Summers and South in the Winters . Our Volunteer positions have pretty much dictated our travels , but we plan to 'spread our wings' a bit more this coming year and after . So , there will be a greater chance that we end up near some of the places mentioned .

Goes around , comes around .

Posted

Yellowstone is bursting at the seams during the summer. The NPS is looking into options. Personally, I'd like to see it go to a shuttle park and get rid of the private cars on the roads. Similar to the Grand Canyon. It would be an incredible logistic project to switch it out but overall, I think visitors' experiences would be enhanced. This year a woman was killed when she stepped into the roadway while taking a picture and a car hit her. Could this have happened with a shuttle? Certainly, but with less traffic, an elevated driver position and a professional driver, the chances are reduced. One of the most frequent topics I hear is about drivers' antics resulting from their excitement. Add to the mix that many, many, many are foreign visitors who are not used to driving in the US.

 

Hopefully something will change but it will be a while. In the meantime I just stand on the edges of the road directing traffic and watching people have an experience of their life.

The richest are not those who have the most, but those who need the least.

Posted

Yellowstone is bursting at the seams during the summer. The NPS is looking into options. Personally, I'd like to see it go to a shuttle park and get rid of the private cars on the roads. Similar to the Grand Canyon. It would be an incredible logistic project to switch it out but overall, I think visitors' experiences would be enhanced. This year a woman was killed when she stepped into the roadway while taking a picture and a car hit her. Could this have happened with a shuttle? Certainly, but with less traffic, an elevated driver position and a professional driver, the chances are reduced. One of the most frequent topics I hear is about drivers' antics resulting from their excitement. Add to the mix that many, many, many are foreign visitors who are not used to driving in the US.

 

Hopefully something will change but it will be a while. In the meantime I just stand on the edges of the road directing traffic and watching people have an experience of their life.

 

My wife and I have worked in Yellowstone the last three summers. I agree, I'd like to see something done and shuttles would reduce traffic considerably. One of the logistical problems is the campgrounds. Unless they eliminate the campgrounds, they won't be able to close the park to privately owned vehicles (although, they could change the campgrounds to "tent only" I suppose).

 

If they would start imposing heavy fines on anyone breaking the rules (driving or otherwise) and maybe even give authority to all workers in the park to ticket violators (where photographic proof of the violation is available), they could have enough income to implement whatever it takes.

 

Don

Posted

I had already thought about the campgrounds and I'm sure with the money Xanterra has spent on them for upgrades, I'm sure they would approve "Tent only". I would really like strapping our kayaks on a shuttle bus, taking us to a location where they sell the YNP stickers for on them, then dropping us off at Lake Yellowstone, Lewis Lake, Jaffe Lake, and the weather blows up bad and there we stand waiting for a shuttle. Ranger programs, dinner reservations, etc. And while talking about kayaks there is a movement to open up more paddling areas in the park, why not keep it as it is. I am all for handing down big penalties, but the foreign bus trippers would escape and be gone like last winters snow. And if I'm not mistaken, the lady that was hit while taking a picture wasn't in the park. She was near the YNP sign on the entrance street into the park, Yellowstone Ave. And why you would jump out there is beyond me! That sign has flash bulb burns from all the pictures. Yellowstone is so vast with busy places and many dead places. Pick your poison!

Posted

In reading on the various forums, the folks that are still working... and many of them from the eastern states, already make reservations for their whole 2-week vacation..

I'll have to admit I didn't get my point across very well.

 

It's one thing to head out with your rig having a choice of 30,000 public and private campgrounds for reservations (as a conservative estimate) but another thing entirely when you want entry specifically into perhaps five national parks as the entire purpose of the trip.

 

Let's say: Rocky Mountain, Yellowstone / Tetons, Zion, Yosemite, and the Grand Canyon.

 

If the government would go to, say, a lottery system or something similar for these parks how many of them do you think you'd get to see on any one trip. (Your trip of a lifetime!)

 

And your have distances to consider. Yellowstone to Yosemite is almost 1,000 miles as a direct route. Even if you did win a couple of the lotteries how would you get the dates to work out.

 

Of course thus is all pure speculation on my part but I'd hope it gets us thinking about how complex a problem it might be.

Posted
If they would start imposing heavy fines on anyone breaking the rules (driving or otherwise) and maybe even give authority to all workers in the park to ticket violators (where photographic proof of the violation is available), they could have enough income to implement whatever it takes.

Enforcement in the national parks is limited to the Law Enforcement rangers for good reason. When we spent the winter as naturalists in Everglades NP we did observe numerous minor violations and one more serious one, which is one of the reasons that most staff carry digital cameras, but the actual apprehension and ticketing of violators is left to the LE workers and for good reason. If you have photographic proof, it can be given to an LE and they will/do deal with it. If you write the ticket, then you will have to stay around to testify in court if you want that ticket enforced.

 

I would really like strapping our kayaks on a shuttle bus, taking us to a location where they sell the YNP stickers for on them, then dropping us off at Lake Yellowstone, Lewis Lake, Jaffe Lake, and the weather blows up bad and there we stand waiting for a shuttle. Ranger programs, dinner reservations, etc

That would be a major problem for the largest of Natl. Parks because of the distances involved. At Yosemite NP & at Grand Canyon NP, only some of the busiest areas of the park are limited to the park transportation, while other areas are allowed privet vehicle access. It might be workable to provide bus service to the busiest areas like the geyser basin, but it would also be expensive to initiate and operate. The parks are already struggling with budgets and this will make that far worse if the buses are free, like Grand Canyon.

 

There is no doubt that there are problems in our national parks and one of the biggest problems is money. Most problems in our parks could be solved, but how to pay for the solutions? Perhaps we need a graduated entry fee, where you pay according to your financial ability? (Please note the tongue in cheek!) :wacko:

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

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Posted

...............There is no doubt that there are problems in our national parks and one of the biggest problems is money. Most problems in our parks could be solved, but how to pay for the solutions? Perhaps we need a graduated entry fee, where you pay according to your financial ability? (Please note the tongue in cheek!) :wacko:

Cool, we can all carry a copy of our income tax return and pay according to our gross income! (note the smile!) :)

 

Or better yet, the IRS can issue an annual range of income card to everyone. $0-$10,000, $10,001 to $20,000, etc. :)

Al & Sharon
2006 Winnebago Journey 36G 
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San Antonio, TX

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