Lippert Weak frames?

[MCMaloney]

I have a 2022 Forest River Riverstone 391 FSK. I have had ongoing problems with my electric slides. I have recently discovered that there are cracks on the outside of my trailer near the bottom of the electric slides and also on the rear hydraulic slide going from the top corners up to the roof. Would any of you suspect this has anything to do with the frame at all? I would appreciate any opinions on this. Thank you. 

[JimK]

I do not understand the details and where the cracks have appeared, but this seems to be another case of the manufacturer cutting corners. 

The frame/suspension ratings appear to be barely adequate for light use.  This is a large RV with a low CCC rating.  The CCC rating is 3200# according to the Forest River online specs.  The CCC is based on dry weight so just propane and a full water tank reduces the CCC to about 2500#.  The CCC is based on a standard; ie, barebones, configuration.  Options will further reduce the CCC.  Forest River lists lots of options, many of which are likely to be included in an actual unit.  Many of the options are heavy and could seriously deflate the available CCC.   All the stuff many of us carry can easily exceed the CCC.     

[Ray,IN]

On rvforum.net a member posted a 3 video series of a Lippert rep explaining how their frames are made, and the reasoning behind their  frame designs.

Lippert intentionally designs their frames so the coach part strengthens the frame.

Edited March 7 by Ray,IN

[TXiceman]

My feeling on the Lippert video is it a lot of marketing hype and covering why they cut corners.

A frame should have some flexing, but to depend totally on a bolted-on side wall is just not a good design.  There are several points that need reinforcing and would be minimal cost to Lippert.  

As a retired mechanical engineer, these frames are designed to a minimum standard which is not well suited for the use of these units.  To add to the problems, Lippert welding is mostly substandard and would not work in any shop I worked with.

Ken

[rpsinc]

18 hours ago, TXiceman said:

My feeling on the Lippert video is it a lot of marketing hype and covering why they cut corners.

A frame should have some flexing, but to depend totally on a bolted-on side wall is just not a good design.  There are several points that need reinforcing and would be minimal cost to Lippert.  

As a retired mechanical engineer, these frames are designed to a minimum standard which is not well suited for the use of these units.  To add to the problems, Lippert welding is mostly substandard and would not work in any shop I worked with.

Ken

I am not sure how I consider the whole Lippert is TOTALLY responsible for frame flexing/failures blame as I have worked as a fabricator/welder for most of my professional career and understand that customers can and do influence how things are made and what materials are used.  Often times that affects the finished product and its success in usage.  I am not trying to absolve Lippert of their responsibility as to workmanship(I have seen many videos and in person examples of poor workmanship and BAD welds with a serious lack of pride in work) and that is ALL on Lippert.  Mig guns moving too fast and not allowing for sufficient penetration(keep in mind that welding is a process where pieces of metal are FUSED together to continue the strength of the member/s included, without sufficient penetration, you have member/s FLOATING in their relative positions, relying on shear panels, glue and screws to accomplich what the welding process should have accomplished).  As noted above, frame flex is necessary for this application but weld failures under those flex conditions is unacceptable.

I am semi retired in part because the lack of pride in delivered work has become acceptable and since I dont subscribe to that way of working, I have decided to accept the same sorry piece work rates for the sub-standard work offered for less that acceptable results and then add to that the lack of pride in work, well, lets just say I'm done.  But sadly I see that the industry is moving into a time of less quality and higher costs which I doubt is sustainable over the long haul.  I will continue to make myself available to teach those that do care to do quality work and want to SLOW DOWN and do it right the 1st time.  In the meantime, my customers will continue to benefit from exceptional work at a fair price that will last for generations to come.

Now, I have stepped OFF MY SOAPBOX.

[markandkim]

On 3/7/2024 at 6:55 PM, TXiceman said:

My feeling on the Lippert video is it a lot of marketing hype and covering why they cut corners.

A frame should have some flexing, but to depend totally on a bolted-on side wall is just not a good design.  There are several points that need reinforcing and would be minimal cost to Lippert.  

As a retired mechanical engineer, these frames are designed to a minimum standard which is not well suited for the use of these units.  To add to the problems, Lippert welding is mostly substandard and would not work in any shop I worked with.

Ken

Also a retired engineer, i agree their welds are terrible. 

[DJohns]

I have watched the Lippert frame issue for many years. Clearly there is a problem but when I hear Lippert just builds to the customer specs I have concern. If my customer wanted me to do subquality work on my reputation I would say no.

[lappir]

It's the case of investors buying all the good companies stealing the wealth generated by the prior good and providing a substandard product so they can loose enough money to bankrupt the entire entity. The few who took all the cream off the top move on to do it again and again. Those left behind are the workers who actually made the product good in the first place, but have no money to do it right again. It's a sad state of affairs and it showing in all walks of life more and more each day. 

Rod

[Kirk W]

26 minutes ago, lappir said:

It's the case of investors buying all the good companies stealing the wealth generated by the prior good and providing a substandard product so they can loose enough money to bankrupt the entire entity.

Interesting business analysis.  Who are the investors, maybe owners of 401k's and IRA's? People like you and I?

"As of December 31, 2022, a total of $37.8 trillion was held in U.S. retirement plans and accounts, of which $26.3 trillion was in employer-sponsored plans and $11.5 trillion was in IRAs."

Edited March 9 by Kirk W
repair a typo

[kb0zke]

More than 10 years ago we owned a Heartland mpg travel trailer. We attended the Heartland Rally in Indiana the summer of 2011. One of the big discussions was about the frame welds failing on fifth wheels. Lippert said that Heartland designs the frame and they just build what the print says to build. At that time there were several instances of fifth wheels going back to the factory to have the frame rebuilt because it wasn't done correctly.

That same summer we toured the DRV factory and they made a point of showing us how much stronger their frames were compared to others. Don't remember whether they built their own at that time or whether they bought from someone else. That's why we like to take factory tours.

[GlennWest]

lippert builds drv chassis to drv specs. This discussion brings to mind a story. Years ago I worked on a maintenance job and we basically done what was needed. A part of the plant had many changes over the years. Upgrades and additions had added lots of weight to the building. So engineers had us go in and add braces to the steel. We tore out walls, welded in cleats and bolted steel. Well we should take a lesson from them. We add more and more in our campers and never consider the weight specs of the unit. Now we on this forum are more informed than the masses of rv owners. I dare say over half of rvs are overloaded and some severely. I am surprised there are not more failures. 

Edited March 9 by GlennWest

[lappir]

9 hours ago, Kirk W said:

Interesting business analysis.  Who are the investors, maybe owners of 401k's and IRA's? People like you and I?

"As of December 31, 2022, a total of $37.8 trillion was held in U.S. retirement plans and accounts, of which $26.3 trillion was in employer-sponsored plans and $11.5 trillion was in IRAs."

I do not do business analysis. I only call it as I see it. I also (and you also) have little input into how your 401K or IRA's are invested. They are controlled by "Financial Managers" who while are paid with money out of our accounts, don't actually "Work for Us".  I asked both of my Financial Managers to remove any money I have invested from funds that supported for profit health care and was told by both that it was not possible. At this time I don't feel I can do anything further than just ask. In the future that may be different. 

 

Rod

[Randyretired]

With IRA's you can invest however you want.  If the current IRA doesn't allow that move it to another company.  I self direct my IRA and have at times changed my investments. I don't have problems with for profit healthcare so I do invest in a low cost healthcare index fund for some of my little IRA and have a couple of health related stocks.

[Kirk W]

2 hours ago, lappir said:

I asked both of my Financial Managers to remove any money I have invested from funds that supported for profit health care and was told by both that it was not possible.

11 minutes ago, Randyretired said:

With IRA's you can invest however you want.  If the current IRA doesn't allow that move it to another company. 

Randy is right. If your fund manager doesn't do what you want you need to move to a different company. Since I am now retired, I moved all of the funds of my 401k into an IRA as soon as I was retired, just so that I could control things. 

EDIT:  I can and do research companies at time and if you have internet access you could do that also. It does take a little work and you do have to do some study/learning but you can learn how with a little effort.

Edited March 10 by Kirk W