Myth Busters

[spindrift]

7 minutes ago, rickeieio said:

Well, I spent some time searching for definitive answers about oil flow through filters, and found lots of opinions, and few solid facts.  I appears that some engines/filters are designed as "full flow" meaning that all the oil coming from the pump goes to the filter, unless the filter by-passes for some reason.  Other engines shunt a portion to the filter, the rest going on to lubricate and/or cool something.

Just from personal experience, I've owned perhaps 20 diesels, nearly all had horizontal filters.  The 3 Cummins being the exception.  I've also owned 4 gasoline fueled, turbocharged engines of two very different designs.  All had horizontal filters.

Rick, I'll make sure I change my oil at home before we visit in February, lol.

[jenandjon]

10 hours ago, rickeieio said:

Good stuff.  I cut my teeth on old Farmalls and John Deeres.  The Farmalls had had a cartridge filter that could not be pre-filled, and the Deeres had horizontal filters.

 

The older Deere had horizontal filters. Then they went vertical for the 8000 series. Now they are back to a canister type.

[Deezl Smoke]

 Anyone ever change the engine oil in an old VW bug?

[jenandjon]

8 minutes ago, Deezl Smoke said:

 Anyone ever change the engine oil in an old VW bug?

Been a while. If I remember right it just has a screen. 

[lappir]

51 minutes ago, Deezl Smoke said:

 Anyone ever change the engine oil in an old VW bug?

Many times and yes it only had a screen you took out and rinsed in the parts washer. I'd then soak it in a container of clean oil for a bit before reinstalling it. 

[spindrift]

12 hours ago, Deezl Smoke said:

I'll refrain from comment on how smart the engine designers today are.

Interesting point.  I've wondered what kind of truck and engine we would have if good designers got together without federal and economic constraints.

[Steve from SoCal]

The size of the engine has some impact on how it's oil system works.    'Most' modern post 1960 auto engines use full flow oil filtration as well as many medium/high speed diesel engines.    As a kid I worked at Ed Pink racing engines and did engine tear down and machine work.    The only engines I recall that were bypass were older designs, flat head/early stove bolts etc.

I don't have that much knowledge on smaller diesel engines, I do know Cat, MTU, Man have full flow oil systems.     All have vertical filter placement.    As some may recall I had a Mercedes independent shop and all the MB engines I recall have vertical or near vertical placement.    My cars: Mercedes straight six, V-6, V-8 and,V12 all have top loading vertical filters.     Only my older inline engine uses a spin on filter, the rest use a fleece cartridge that drains when stopped.     I recall some engines with side mount filters with remote or vertical adapters for filter plcement.

Piston aero engines DO have bypass oil systems and many actually have an oil dilution function to add fuel to the oil system for cold starts     My forklifts with flat heads have bypass oil systems, these are all older designs.     Like older VW's, the bypass systems used screens with a filter being an option.

On many larger diesel engines <20 liters there is an accumulator or pre-lube pump,  i have an acusump type pre-oiler for smaller engines myself.    Changing oil on an engine that was running a day ago is not an issue.    Even engines that have not been changed but have sat for some time should be pre-oiled.   

  

[Deezl Smoke]

 Back like 30 years ago or so, it was feasible and somewhat cost effective to "rebuild" a car or pu engine, any major repair done, like say rolling in new rods and mains, or in the sbc the cam would go flat, you would just install a new cam and lifters. Then, you would pull the distributor.......ya, remember those days, and take an old distributor shaft on a drill motor and run the oil pump to prime the system before firing.

 One good thing about these computer controlled engines today is many of them need to sense oil pressure (among other things) before they will fire off. My old mechanical Cummins 855 will fire in one revolution, where my 2021 Cummins X15 takes a bit of cranking. It would fire in less than a rev if it didn't have the safety features.

  I just find it fun to see all the interesting technology over the years. An old VW with no more than a cleanable screen to micron rated filter and only factory approved oils with additive packages that meet just that factory's specs.

[spindrift]

Ahhh...the 855.  It's a beautiful thing.

 

[Ray,IN]

On 12/14/2023 at 10:45 PM, rickeieio said:

Good stuff.  I cut my teeth on old Farmalls and John Deeres.  The Farmalls had had a cartridge filter that could not be pre-filled, and the Deeres had horizontal filters.

Most of my light duty trucks (half tons through one tons) have had horizontal filters too.

I'll see if I can dig up documentation on how much oil goes through the filter v. how much is by-passed.

Amsoil says their bypass oil filters filter 5% of the oil flowing.  Bypass oil filters extend oil life . 

[rickeieio]

22 hours ago, spindrift said:

Rick, I'll make sure I change my oil at home before we visit in February, lol.

Tom,  I forgot the smart.  Gasoline, turbo, horizontal filter.

Please don't think for a minute that I think there's anything wrong with pre-filling a filter, but I can't find solid evidence of a need to do so.  I'm one of those weird-o's that actually reads owners manuals, and service manuals, and I've yet to see this addressed.

[Deezl Smoke]

 Myth: floating gears (no clutch to shift) in a manual trans is hard on it.

 This mainly stems from the automotive industry I think that uses synchronized meshing of gear teeth. Floating synchro-mesh is in fact a no-no, but the non synchro straight cutters of the hd truck, floating has no adverse affects.

 IMO of course.

[spindrift]

3 hours ago, rickeieio said:

Tom,  I forgot the smart.  Gasoline, turbo, horizontal filter.

Please don't think for a minute that I think there's anything wrong with pre-filling a filter, but I can't find solid evidence of a need to do so.  I'm one of those weird-o's that actually reads owners manuals, and service manuals, and I've yet to see 

A turbo on an ISX will cost you north of $2K.  Then there's your labor.  If you're an O/O, that's real money.  Honestly, I have no empirical evidence to provide which demonstrates the value of the manufacturer's recommendation, but it makes perfect sense to me that turbo bearings and a shaft which go without lubrication could prematurely wear over time.  I don't have the money or time to burn so why risk it?  Although not exactly an apples to apples comparison, it's the same reason why I'll allow my coolant and oil temperature to drop before shutting down the engine after a hard pull.  Oil can coke on the turbo shaft and bearings and result in premature wear.  In both examples, it's a case of treating a critical engine component with kid gloves.

How about we agree that the original declaration isn't necessarily a myth.  

And then there's the whole commercial use versus pleasure use argument...

Edited December 16, 2023 by spindrift

[spindrift]

46 minutes ago, Deezl Smoke said:

 Myth: floating gears (no clutch to shift) in a manual trans is hard on it.

 This mainly stems from the automotive industry I think that uses synchronized meshing of gear teeth. Floating synchro-mesh is in fact a no-no, but the non synchro straight cutters of the hd truck, floating has no adverse affects.

 IMO of course.

Agreed.  I've heard rumors that CDL examiners will flunk the poor soul they catch floating gears.  You would think an operator who can float gears would be able to use a clutch as well.

[rickeieio]

Spin, agree to dis-agree here too.  There's so much anecdotal garble out there, it's hard to separate fact from fiction.  But, I would like to find something in print from a manufacturer recommending to pre-fill.

I too have heard about flunking for not using the clutch.  I've found that eventually, your hand and foot do the shifting, and leave the brain out of the equation.  For me, that's a plus.

Another myth I've heard is that using the Jake (Jacobs Exhaust brake), causes premature cam wear.  Duh.  If that were true, the warranty would be shorter on engines with Jakes.

[spindrift]

5 hours ago, rickeieio said:

Spin, agree to dis-agree here too.  There's so much anecdotal garble out there, it's hard to separate fact from fiction.  But, I would like to find something in print from a manufacturer recommending to pre-fill.

I too have heard about flunking for not using the clutch.  I've found that eventually, your hand and foot do the shifting, and leave the brain out of the equation.  For me, that's a plus.

Another myth I've heard is that using the Jake (Jacobs Exhaust brake), causes premature cam wear.  Duh.  If that were true, the warranty would be shorter on engines with Jakes.

From the Service Manual for the Signature, ISX and QSX15 Engines, Volume 2

I should note that the page provided demonstrates a rebuild in progress.

Edited December 17, 2023 by spindrift
Trying to post a pic!!!!

[Ray,IN]

14 hours ago, spindrift said:

Agreed.  I've heard rumors that CDL examiners will flunk the poor soul they catch floating gears.  You would think an operator who can float gears would be able to use a clutch as well.

That might be true. I know what happens when you  fail in your timing when shifting without using the clutch climbing a steep grade_ not good at all.

[rickeieio]

8 hours ago, spindrift said:

From the Service Manual

Dang.  You win this round.

[Deezl Smoke]

6 hours ago, Ray,IN said:

That might be true. I know what happens when you  fail in your timing when shifting without using the clutch climbing a steep grade_ not good at all.

But it makes good youtube.🚛

[jenandjon]

16 hours ago, spindrift said:

From the Service Manual for the Signature, ISX and QSX15 Engines, Volume 2

I should note that the page provided demonstrates a rebuild in progress.

On the KW 880 and T 800 the oil filter sits over the steer axle. I only fill them half way if I even remember to do that. Because if the filter is full I spill a bunch trying to get it up there anyway.  This is good to know. I will make sure to tell the shop monkeys to fill them form now on. 

[rickeieio]

I can't help but wonder if, as spindrift pointed out, that reference is for a rebuild, where all the lines/passages are empty?

More unanswered questions.

[Deezl Smoke]

31 minutes ago, rickeieio said:

I can't help but wonder if, as spindrift pointed out, that reference is for a rebuild, where all the lines/passages are empty?

More unanswered questions.

 Typically,......😵 if an action is imperative, a warning, then bold lettering stating the consequence if the action is not followed. Similar to the warning in the manual above, stating not to over tighten the filter or... I usually figure the rest are suggestions, not required.

 Note in the manual above, it does not tell you "how" to properly fill the filter.

[spindrift]

58 minutes ago, rickeieio said:

I can't help but wonder if, as spindrift pointed out, that reference is for a rebuild, where all the lines/passages are empty?

More unanswered questions.

Good point.  If the guy starting that engine hadn't charged that engine, Snappie should cut him off from all future purchases.

[spindrift]

7 hours ago, Deezl Smoke said:

Note in the manual above, it does not tell you "how" to properly fill the filter.

Even Fleetguard punts on that one.

Edited December 18, 2023 by spindrift

[Ray,IN]

Cummins diesel engines built in the last 20 years have an oil pressure sensor circuit that will not allow an engine start until the ECM sees oil pressure in the system.

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by Ray,IN