Domicile/Tax Question

[Twotoes]

docj, the Know Your Customer rule is not part of the Patriot Act which is no longer in force because it expired and was not renewed. The KYC act leaves it to each institution to decide what information they require. It is the institions attorneys who decide what is required and institutes internal policy to enforce those requirements. Each institution has different policies. There is no law requiring anyone to have a physical address. 

[docj]

8 hours ago, Twotoes said:

Patriot Act which is no longer in force because it expired and was not renewed.

I hate to quote Wikipedia but it had the best summary:

Following a lack of Congressional approval, parts of the Patriot Act expired on June 1, 2015.  With passing the USA Freedom Act on June 2, 2015, the expired parts were restored and renewed through 2019.  However, Section 215 of the law was amended to stop the NSA from continuing its mass phone data collection program. Instead, phone companies will retain the data and the NSA can obtain information about targeted individuals with permission from a federal court.

And FWIW I never said that KYC was part of the Patriot Act, but much of the intent was the same.

Edited February 4, 2019 by docj

[Andy Baird]

I'm a full-time RVer who is domiciled in South Dakota. I just received an email from Wells Fargo, a bank I've been using for a number of years.

Quote

 

During a recent review of your customer file, we discovered the address we currently have listed as your physical address is a private mailbox* or PO Box.

Wells Fargo is required to ensure that all customers and certain related parties have a valid physical address where they reside or operate documented with us. This address can't be a private mailbox or PO Box. We'll need you to update your physical address by October 21, 2023 to maintain continued access to your account(s).

If we don't receive this information by October 21, 2023, Wells Fargo will be required to begin the process of closing or restricting your account(s).

* A private mailbox is often associated with a commercial mail receiving service and does not represent the physical address where you reside. While the address for private mailbox may have a format similar to a physical address, it does not satisfy banking regulatory requirements.

 

As a full-timer, I don't have a sticks-and-bricks physical address. If I take this email at face value, it means I will have to shut down my Wells Fargo accounts. Needless to say, I'm not happy. Anybody have any suggestions?

[2gypsies]

Is your address actually a P.O. Box?   We used Escapees mail service and they gave us a street address.  Never had an issue and we had a Wells Fargo acct, also.... along with other financial institutions.

[crstrm]

We had a similar issue when we moved from TD Ameritrade to Fidelity. NO problem with TD Ameritrade for 17 years, go figure.

We had to jump through hoops to get Fidelity to accept our PMB. Copies of drivers license, voter registration form showing that we were registered voters in SD, copies of our vehicle registrations, State of South Dakota Residency Affidavit for RVers, as a few examples. As mentioned, financial institutions are required to have a CIP (Customer Identification Program) in place to validate the identify of the person on the accounts and each bank/financial institution method could be slightly difference. Perhaps ask them what you they would require as proof of residency.

[Andy Baird]

"Is your address actually a P.O. Box?  We used Escapees mail service and they gave us a street address."

I have a street address--just as with Escapees Rainbow Drive street addresses. It's the address of DakotaPost in Sioux Falls. Wells Fargo said:

Quote

 

The following is the first line of the physical address on file that needs to be corrected: 

3916 N POTSDAM AVE 

 

It looks to me as if they recognized that as DakotaPost's street address, and correctly assumed that I was using them as a PMB (Personal Mail Box)... even though I don't use "PMB" as part of my mailing address.

Now, I am a registered SD voter, I have vehicles registered there, I have a SD driver's license, and so on. It's a fully legal domicile address, just as my Rainbow Drive address was when I was domiciled in Texas years ago. But if WF demands a physical residence address, well, I ain't got one. (And if they are doing a "sweep" of their customer list, you folks domiciled in TX may be hearing from them soon.)

[Kirk W]

6 hours ago, Andy Baird said:

As a full-timer, I don't have a sticks-and-bricks physical address.

The law that they are concerned about allows for an alternative address, if you can get them to take notice of it. I was with Wells Fargo the entire 12 years that we were on the road and not too long after 9/11 and the passage of the "Patriot Act" we got a letter from them and ultimately we supplied an alternate address of a relative, not living with us, and living in a conventional home who could always tell them where we were, if requested. If you will call the Escapee business office and tell them of the problem, they have dealt with it many times and they can help.  936-327-8873

[Andy Baird]

I went to DakotaPost this morning, since I happen to be in their home town, and told a woman there about the email I'd received from Wells Fargo. She knew all about the issue, having heard from many other DakotaPost customers, and this is what she told me.

Although DakotaPost is fully compliant with the current Patriot Act (as I expect the Escapees Mail Service is), all the big banks are starting to crack down on customers with P.O. boxes or Personal Mail Boxes. In Wells Fargo's case, this just began yesterday, she said. She reeled off the names of half a dozen major banks that have sent out similar notices to DakotaPost customers. Wells Fargo was one; I recognized the others, but don't remember them all. According to her, the only bank that hasn't pulled this "you must have a physical residence address" requirement (yet, I said to myself) is U.S. Bank.*

She went on to say that at this point I have two choices: move my money to U.S. Bank, or find a relative or friend who's willing to let me use their home address as a "front" in order to satisfy Wells Fargo's new requirement.

While I feel like giving WF the finger by moving my money elsewhere, I can easily imagine that U.S. Bank will probably be sending out similar notices sooner or later. So I'm going to ask a friend to front for me, which is stupid and annoying... but what else can I do?

DakotaPost is a large, well-established mail forwarding service, so I'm sure they have plenty of customers who are affected. In fact, the woman told me that many of their customers bank with Wells Fargo. If what she said about all the major banks doing this is correct, I expect a lot of unhappy full-timers will be hearing from their banks in the near future.

* I hadn't heard of them, but Wikipedia says they are the fifth largest banking institution in the United States.

[2gypsies]

For Escapees we didn't use a PMB or P.O. Box #.  They gave us a normal-looking address.  Perhaps that's the difference.  Your bank is picking up a P.O. Box or PMB # and then rejects it.

[Dutch_12078]

On 8/22/2023 at 5:24 PM, Andy Baird said:

"Is your address actually a P.O. Box?  We used Escapees mail service and they gave us a street address."

I have a street address--just as with Escapees Rainbow Drive street addresses. It's the address of DakotaPost in Sioux Falls. Wells Fargo said:

It looks to me as if they recognized that as DakotaPost's street address, and correctly assumed that I was using them as a PMB (Personal Mail Box)... even though I don't use "PMB" as part of my mailing address.

Now, I am a registered SD voter, I have vehicles registered there, I have a SD driver's license, and so on. It's a fully legal domicile address, just as my Rainbow Drive address was when I was domiciled in Texas years ago. But if WF demands a physical residence address, well, I ain't got one. (And if they are doing a "sweep" of their customer list, you folks domiciled in TX may be hearing from them soon.)

The USPS "Look Up a ZIP Code" site identifies addresses issued by a CMRA (Commercial Mail Receiving Agency). Many business organizations use this feature to verify deliverable addresses.

https://tools.usps.com/zip-code-lookup.htm?byaddress

Try this test address: 

650 E PALISADE AVE STE 2 #123

ENGLEWOOD CLIFFS NJ

07632

When the address validates, click on the down arrow and note the 'Y' under the "Commercial Mail Receiving Agency" header 

[Andy Baird]

"For Escapees we didn't use a PMB or P.O. Box #.  They gave us a normal-looking address."

My understanding--and correct me if I'm wrong--is that everybody who uses the Escapees Mail Service is legally using a PMB, whether or not they spell out the letters 'PMB' as part of their address.

My Escapees address doesn't look any different in format than my DakotaPost address. There is a number in the street address:

    180 Rainbow Dr. #xxxx

... just as there's a number in my DakotaPost street address:

    3916 N Potsdam Ave #xxxx

"When the address validates, click on the down arrow and note the 'Y' under the 'Commercial Mail Receiving Agency' header."

You're right... and my DakotaPost address shows the same 'Y' flag you mentioned. Any half-intelligent bot could use that USPS page to quickly determine whether an address was using a mail forwarding service, and that's probably just how Wells Fargo and the other big banks are doing it.

But here's where the difference comes in. When I enter my Escapees Mail Service address into that USPS ZIP lookup page, that flag says 'N'. That's bizarre, because of course Escapees is a commercial mail receiving agency. How did they pull this off invisibility act?

Edited August 24, 2023 by Andy Baird
added information

[Kirk W]

9 hours ago, Andy Baird said:

My understanding--and correct me if I'm wrong--is that everybody who uses the Escapees Mail Service is legally using a PMB, whether or not they spell out the letters 'PMB' as part of their address.

Publication 28 - Postal Addressing Standards > 2 Postal Addressing Standards > 28 Post Office Box Addresses > 285 Private Mailbox Addresses

      

285 Private Mailbox Addresses

Publication 28 - Postal Addressing Standards > 2 Postal Addressing Standards > 28 Post Office Box Addresses > 285 Private Mailbox Addresses 285 Private Mailbox Addresses Private companies offering mailbox rental services to individuals and businesses are considered commercial mail receiving agencies (CMRA). Addresses on mail received at a CMRA must adhere to specific requirements in the use of their private mailbox number (PMB). Mail sent to an addressee at a CMRA must include either the PMB identifier or the #, followed by the appropriate private mailbox number. Use of any other identifier is prohibited. Either a three line or four line address format can be used with a CMRA address and the PMB or # identifier, with the exception noted below. Where the CMRA‘s physical address requires its own secondary address element, the PMB or # address must follow the specific format rules stated below. It is not permissible to combine the secondary address element of the mailing address for the CMRA and the CMRA customer‘s private box number. Examples:

Edited August 24, 2023 by Kirk W

[Andy Baird]

Something occurred to me while pondering the reason why a DakotaPost address is flagged as belonging to a commercial mail receiving agency, while an Escapees address is not. Escapees has an RV park at that Rainbow Drive address, while DakotaPost does not. An RVer could conceivably be residing at the Escapees RV park, but not at DakotaPost's street address. Maybe that's the key difference?

[Andy Baird]

Thanks for providing that detailed information, Kirk. If I understand correctly, it confirms what I was saying yesterday: if you use an Escapees mail address, whether you write it as "PMB xxxx" or "#xxxx", you are using a PMB.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Andy Baird
correcting typo

[Payroll Person]

What you write does not matter. What matters is what a scanner reads and matches to the database.  No one is human reading addresses during verification or mail processing. USPS offers a “street” address for some of their pro box locations. Allows receiving packages some sellers will not send to  app box. 

Edited August 24, 2023 by Payroll Person

[Kirk W]

1 hour ago, Payroll Person said:

What you write does not matter. What matters is what a scanner reads and matches to the database. 

Also, all organizations that receive mail for the public are required to register with the USPS and as such they are a "private mail box" by legal definition. The way that a business knows that your address is a PMB is that the USPS maintains a database of them which is available to businesses. Escapees mail service is a private mail box service and they are registered with the USPS as such. There have been problems with their acceptance by financial institutions that fall under the "Patriot Act" many times and they have been well known for getting involved in correcting the problem. That my make them less susceptible to such actions but they have not been immune to it. 

Edited August 24, 2023 by Kirk W

[Andy Baird]

"all organizations that receive mail for the public are required to register with the USPS and as such they are a 'private mail box' by legal definition."

That's understandable. What puzzles me, and perhaps you have an explanation, is why the ZIP code lookup that you suggested shows 'Y' under the Commercial Mail Receiving Agency header for a DakotaPost address, but shows 'N' for the Escapees Mail Service address under that same header.

It appears the Postal Service doesn't classify Escapees Mail Service as a Commercial Mail Receiving Agency, and I'm wondering why. Did Escapees somehow wangle an exception?

[Kirk W]

17 minutes ago, Andy Baird said:

It appears the Postal Service doesn't classify Escapees Mail Service as a Commercial Mail Receiving Agency,

If you are looking up 77351, that is the zip for the business office and for the community of Livingston and it is not a mail service.  If you check 77399 that is the mail service.

[Andy Baird]

I did check a 77399 address (mine), and it came up 'N'--hence my question.

[Kirk W]

Where did you check it? Got a link?

How do you determine if an address is a business?

Licensing Info. The RDI™ Product allows customers to determine whether an address is classified as residential or business in the USPS^® Address Management System (AMS) database. Addresses processed using the RDI data return an indicator denoting 'Yes' for Business or 'No' for Residential.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Kirk W

[Andy Baird]

I used the ZIP code lookup page suggested by Dutch_12078:

https://tools.usps.com/zip-code-lookup.htm?byaddress

As Dutch said, "When the address validates, click on the down arrow and note the 'Y' under the 'Commercial Mail Receiving Agency' header.' " This is more relevant to our discussion than business vs. residential, as it addresses the specific issue of mail forwarding services.

Using this tool shows that the Postal Service classifies DakotaPost as a Commercial Mail Receiving Agency, but does not so classify the Escapees Mail Service. I'm just wondering why.

[Kirk W]

24 minutes ago, Andy Baird said:

I'm just wondering why.

That is not what financial businesses use but the one in the link I listed. If you want an answer to your question, perhaps the USPS could supply one. If you doubt that the Escapee mail service is considered to be a PMB by the USPS, just ask them. 

Edited August 24, 2023 by Kirk W

[Andy Baird]

I see. Thanks, Kirk.

[Steven@146]

We ran into a situation when recently applying for a card at Bass Pro, they kept rejecting our application because they didn't like our Escapee's address. I don't know the specifics of why they didn't like the address, don't really care cause we were only applying to get some additional discounts on stuff we were buying. It was just an interesting occurrence, I don't know if it had anything to do with the current conversation or not.

[TXiceman]

Steven@146, on a few occasions while ordering online, I had trouble with the site accepting the Escapees address.  I solved the problem by putting my box number in the box or second line as an apartment number.  It took that as an acceptable address.

 

Ken