Duty Cycle

[Dollytrolley]

Ok folks ........I have put on my new Nomex undies, my hard-toe-boots, my Simpson-Fire-Suit......AND.....my 1947 copper-hard-diver-hat with bar-grate-view-ports (3)............so her we go.........,flame away at me.......

 

It seems that the Super-Pickup-versus-MDT-versus-HDT debate is about as close as I will likely ever get to anything that resembles.........a........."perpetual -motion-machine".........

 

It seems like this never ending WAR of.........BIG Numbers.....BIGGER Numbers......and.........BIG Terms like........GVW, CGW, CCGW, ECWG, XyZrP%#)(!!!, etc....etc...etc...... seems to have no end.........

 

So..... let me throw a little gasoline onto the fire............ try the term........"DUTY-CYCLE"........

 

DUTY-CYCLE is one of those old-fashioned-terms that just seems to have ............"evaporated"..........as we have allowed too many lawyers and others ............guide our lives into ........."near-nirvana-bliss"...........

 

As you may know I am a..........geezer........so try to give me a little slack........help me out......too many terms and BIG Numbers scare geezers.......so..........

 

So..........what is the........... DUTY-CYCLE-OF-A-MAX-GROSS-SUPER-PICKUP????

 

Everyone seems to get really jazzed throwing around the numbers for the latest KING-of-THE-HILL-SUPER-PICKUP........,but NO where have I seen .........any DUTY-CYCLE number............NOT even one itty-bitty-number........zip.....nada........

 

Why........you ask........in the blizzard-of-super-pickup-info is DUTY-CYCLE a ..........missing number???

 

Answers:

#1. Maybe........DUTY-CYCLE is a......."Geezer Number"........you know....like me...too old to be...... "relevant"......

 

#2. Maybe........DUTY-CYCLE is a ....a.....a...."Trade-Secret"..........

 

#3. Maybe........DUTY-CYCLE is a .......number that our.........Lawyers.......won't let out.........

 

#4. Maybe.......Duty-CYCLE is a ......number that ......."regulators"....do NOT require to make public........

 

#5. Maybe......DUTY-CYCLE is a........non-number to Super-Pickup builders.........,

 

#6. Maybe..........You fill in the blank, ________________________________________________

 

So..........what is the........... DUTY-CYCLE-OF-A-MAX-GROSS-SUPER-PICKUP????

 

I know a few really "BIG-BRAIN-Transport-Engineers" (of course these guys are also....geezers) and I talk to them about the LGT / MDT/ HDT food-fights and they are amazed........ so...... world class diesel-engineer Hugh says......are you serious........these folks are trying to compare very-light-high-reving-over-charged-overstressed-tiny diesel engines with only a 6 speed tranny to..........a........12L to 15L SLOW-Speed-HUGELY-INTRECOOLED-FLAT-TORQUE-Diesels-driving a 10 or 13 or15 or 18 speed tranny..........,., You gotta be kidding.....thats like comparing a water-balloon to a machine gun as weapons.........it's just not a fair fight......

 

So what is the DUTY-CYCLE of a MDT / HDT....... well it better be close to 100% or the owner will be out of business ......and the repo-man will be driving away with the rig...........,

 

So.............What is your rigs.........DUTY CYCLE???

 

Get out your flame-throwers..........

 

Drive on............(Geezers get close to the DUTY-CYCLE.......end)

[noteven]

Just when the CDL/no CDL/registration/commercial/where do I park/single/ race car teams are commercial/ not for hire/it;s a rv no it's a truck/duck season wabbit season posts are giving a guy a headache along comes Dolleytrolley with another post to liven the day

 

 

Ans: Sooper pickup Duty cycle is until the end of the warranty, next employee pricing event, or the next iPhone release?

[spindrift]

From the Interweb:

 

Rating Definitions
Ratings are based on ISO 8665 conditions of 100kPa (29.612 in Hg) and 25ºC (77ºF) and 30% relative
humidity. Propeller shaft power represents the net power available after typical gear losses and is 97% of
rated power. Power rated in accordance with IMCI procedures.
High Output (HO) Quantum Engines Only
Intended for use in variable load applications where full power is limited to one hour out of every eight
hours of operation. This rating is for pleasure/non-revenue generating applications that operate less than
500 hours per year.
Intermittent Duty (INT)
Intended for intermittent use in variable load applications where full power is limited to two hours out of
every eight hours of operation. Also, reduced power operations must be at or below 200 rpm of the
maximum rated rpm. This rating is an ISO 3046 fuel stop power rating and is intended for applications
that operate less than 1,500 hours per year.
Medium Continuous Duty (MCD)
Intended for continuous use in variable load applications where full power is limited to six hours out of
every twelve hours of operation. Also, reduced power operations must be at or below 200 rpm of the
maximum rated rpm. This rating is an ISO 3046 fuel stop power rating and is for applications that
operate less than 3,000 hours per year.
Heavy Duty (HD)
Intended for continuous use in variable load applications where full power is limited to eight (8) hours out of
every ten (10) hours of operation. Also, reduced power operations must be at or below 200 rpm of the maxi-
mum rated rpm. This is an ISO 3046 fuel stop power rating and is for applications that operate 5,000 hours
per year or less.

[sclord2002]

Ok, according to Spindrift's post, I have a HD truck......2006 Volvo 780 12.1L.....operating in a HO category. Should it last longer in that usage category than If it were operating in HD category. I would think so, but just curious as to the thoughts of others. Oh, Dollytrolley, I am envious of your inventory of protective equipment.....impressive. Charlie

[adept99]

Well now...isn't this a conundrum. Seems from how I read the above that, by definition, only someone who regularly peruses this forum and is rich or retired or both would have the time to operate their HDT as a HDT. However, in real life, only those folks still "driving their lives away" (it was a song - never mind) generate sufficient seat time to really be considered an official HDT driver.

 

Therefore, since most of us geezers are having too much fun driving, working on, and complaining about HD trucks, I move that we immediately drop this subject before we generate sufficient illogical arguments to force us all back to LGT's. (Little Girly Trucks). To generate additional confusion, I have taken the liberty of ordering a limited supply of Power Stroke Lariat badges to apply to my HDT, and others as requested, to irritate the great unwashed masses.

 

And, oh yeah, the duty cycle is 100% of all you can stand...

 

Dollytrolly - ease up on the periods some - I get dizzy counting the dots.......................................................................

 

Paul

[G&K]

Source please.

 

That reads like the marine ratings service for something like a Detroit Series 60.

 

Btw, you can get a pleasure boat/fast patrol boat rating of something like 825hp in the first cycle described.

 

Geo

 

From the Interweb:

 

Rating Definitions

Ratings are based on ISO 8665 conditions of 100kPa (29.612 in Hg) and 25ºC (77ºF) and 30% relative

humidity. Propeller shaft power represents the net power available after typical gear losses and is 97% of

rated power. Power rated in accordance with IMCI procedures.

High Output (HO) Quantum Engines Only

Intended for use in variable load applications where full power is limited to one hour out of every eight

hours of operation. This rating is for pleasure/non-revenue generating applications that operate less than

500 hours per year.

Intermittent Duty (INT)

Intended for intermittent use in variable load applications where full power is limited to two hours out of

every eight hours of operation. Also, reduced power operations must be at or below 200 rpm of the

maximum rated rpm. This rating is an ISO 3046 fuel stop power rating and is intended for applications

that operate less than 1,500 hours per year.

Medium Continuous Duty (MCD)

Intended for continuous use in variable load applications where full power is limited to six hours out of

every twelve hours of operation. Also, reduced power operations must be at or below 200 rpm of the

maximum rated rpm. This rating is an ISO 3046 fuel stop power rating and is for applications that

operate less than 3,000 hours per year.

Heavy Duty (HD)

Intended for continuous use in variable load applications where full power is limited to eight (8) hours out of

every ten (10) hours of operation. Also, reduced power operations must be at or below 200 rpm of the maxi-

mum rated rpm. This is an ISO 3046 fuel stop power rating and is for applications that operate 5,000 hours

per year or less.

[G&K]

As far as I'm aware, there is no duty cycle standard for LDTs.

 

No regulatory requirement, no big fleets driving standards, and manufacturers won't release any info that could be used against them in a warranty lawsuit.

 

Same same SAE J2708 towing. Had to be forced down their throats.

 

Think about Ford 6.0 problems as an example.

 

Geo

[jkoenig24]

Very interesting. I hope my head stops spinning soon......

[Dollytrolley]

sclord2002 posted:

 

Oh, Dollytrolley, I am envious of your inventory of protective equipment.....impressive. Charlie

 

Charlie,

 

Great points regarding my...Wardrobe...(yes, Paul I am trying to ease up on the dots a bi t> > >however geezers seem a bit...slow getting off-the-"dot-key" > > >)..

 

Having in my past life somewhat being "multi-job-confuzed". . . . my "wardrobe" has become somewhat vast in it's . . . "diversity"

 

I set-aside the pressure-suit . . . Dry-Suit . . . Wet-suit . . . Arctic-survival-suit . . . Parachute . . . Body-harness . . . Foat-Coat-Saftey-Orange-W/Strobe-EPRB . . . 1972 Tux . . . and more

 

So you see Charlie, with "Wardrobe" as vast as I have, it often takes a while to get properly . . . 'attired" (unlike just geezer-tired)

 

Unlike some of those folks in the "rainbow- parades" some items in my "Wardrobe" seem to . . . "clash" at times, you know like having the parachute on under the wet-sute, it's a tight fit and it takes a bit too long to deploy the chute . . .

 

Ok Paul . . . is the "lower-dot-count" . . . a . . . "improvement" .

 

The Super-Pickup-Duty-Cycle comments are "insightful" . .

 

I gota go now, I am nearing the limit of my Geezer-Duty-Cycle !

 

Drive on...........(Dress for . . . success)

[G&K]

Regarding the marine standards. You have Lloyds, American Bureau of Shipping and Det Norske Veritas (among others) driving the standards process. Very simple, give them a hard time and they won't certify your build you won't have any insurance. I've been through quite a few DNV and ABS inspections offshore and they can get very, very picky which is a good thing.

 

There is also an ABYC (American Boat and Yacht Council) standard for recreational boat building that is widely supported.

 

This is quite good - http://www.nordhavn.com/resources/tech/boat_building_standards.php

 

There are also national standards from most countries, like US Coast Guard, Transport Canada etc etc

 

We aren't talking duty cycles aside from powertrains, but still.

 

I can't think of anything similar on the LDT side of the fence. The best is probably the various SAE standards.

 

Geo

[jkennell]

Oh my!!! Well this is FUN! Duty cycle...I LIKE it. Sorta like us farmers tell some kid with a souped up jacked up hotrod that's bragging about how much HP he's got to bring it out to the farm and hook it up to the disk.... I've noticed quite a few farmers on here, maybe cause we naturally "get it" about real power & durability?? (or maybe we just like big toys... )

 

Another rating that springs to mind is gensets. A "backup" genset is vastly different then a "prime power" genset rated for the same output.

 

I like the comment---the "Duty cycle" on a LDT is the length of the warranty. Last year, I bought my wife a 2015 Acadia. Great coverage...can't remember exactly but something like a 100K mile powertrain , 23,000 mile service, etc. So somebody runs a stop sign in front of her last month and totals it (she walked away with a bruise--awesome protection). I go in and buy a 2016..same identical vehicle. NOW the coverage is 50K and 12000, IIRC. Anyway a LOT shorter. HMMMMMM!

[G&K]

Emmisions standards are based on a notional duty-cycle if I'm not mistaken. They can be gamed though, just ask Volkswagen for advice.

 

Geo

[Dollytrolley]

Emmisions standards are based on a notional duty-cycle if I'm not mistaken. They can be gamed though, just ask Volkswagen for advice.

 

Geo

 

Great point Geo!

 

Wonder how much "Duty-Cycle' Vollswagen will have left after EPA has extracted some $$$$$$

 

Drive on..........(Duty-Cycle with.......care)

[G&K]

I think that duty cycle is going to be "bend over, whack" for quite some time to come.

 

Geo

[CDR]

As one that has been in the marine industry for almost 30 years, do not compare Marine engines to road use. Marine engines do not coast! Nor have "jakes"! If you must compare a marine engine is closers to a generator, steady rpms with varying loads.

 

My 2 cents

 

Curt

[G&K]

I hear you Curt, but that's highly dependent on type of service. The Cat 3176s in my Sunseeker Camargue spent a lot of time with very light loads in no wake zones on the Intracoastal. They also spent some time at ~80% heading for Key West or Bimini plus a little time at 100% getting on plane.

 

Hence the 600hp at 2300 pleasure boat rating. The same engine in a tugboat might be what, 250hp at much reduced rpm. Tugboat would be like Prime power generator.

 

Camargue more like Regional LTL truck service.

 

Geo

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

So if I'm running my Volvo like its a LGT- daily driver- am I hurting it or helping it?

 

Let's throw the B-50 rating in here. The Cummins 5.9 had a B-50 rating of 1 million miles used in MDT trucks.

Where do the new light duty diesels fall? 6.7 Cummins, 6.7 Ford, Duramax.

[noteven]

A report full of data well above my pay grade: http://cta.ornl.gov/cta/Publications/Reports/ORNL_TM_2008-122.pdf

 

 

"B50" rating is mentioned. This rating is also used in heavy duty truck engines. B50 means the accounting dept has managed parts quality down to ...oops sorry I mean the careful design and testing has produced an engine design such that 50% of the engines are expected to run 1million miles in linehaul service. Paccar MX has a B10 rating = design target is 90% of engines make 1million miles before overhaul.

 

In trucks engines can be spec'd with EV ratings for emergency vehicle service. Higher HP than commercial truck service. This is due to their short duty cycles compared to commercial trucks.

[GlennWest]

Since this is about Duty Cycle, I once in a younger life, raced stock cars. We ran them at max and replaced connecting rods at 100 laps. These are .5 mile tracks. Hows that for Duty Cycle?

[noteven]

So if I'm running my Volvo like its a LGT- daily driver- am I hurting it or helping it?

 

Let's throw the B-50 rating in here. The Cummins 5.9 had a B-50 rating of 1 million miles used in MDT trucks.

Where do the new light duty diesels fall? 6.7 Cummins, 6.7 Ford, Duramax.

 

The commercial truck operators I am in contact with report fewest emission system problems with trucks that are in super B haul service 140,000lbs 63,500 kg and high ratio of loaded miles such as grain / fertilizer bulk hauling where empty miles can be as low as 20% in a well organized situation, or heavy haul tractors pulling wheelers and jeeps under big track hoes or cats. Or medium duty trucks operating at near gross weight like a tandem fuel tanker with a 300hp engine. The pedal is on the rug many hours a day.

 

The next lowest bother is very light load operation - trucks that can pull most any highway grade in road gear - the theory is the engine is under low fuel use and low EGT and is producing little to no soot (black smoke if it didn't have a filter) so filter loading and DEF requirement is low...

 

The worst seem to be folks who spec a 550hp 15 or 16 litre engine in a 3 axle and zoom around like driving a pickup truck romping on the pedal every stop light then idle the engine excessively cause that's what you do with a diesel - lots of soot production in the gear jamming starts but no work the engine hard in a lug down situation to get some temperature into the aftertreatment system...

 

No, wait, the worst is taking a truck into "camp" in the bush and leaving the engine idle at 800 rpm for 10 days at 25 and 30 below.... haul to Edmonton and fix, no warranty $20,000.00

 

No, wait, filling the DEF tank with methanol stolen from the oil company facilty ... who knew the DEF system can sense when the DEF is not DEF ? $3000

 

No, wait, how about you are hauling on the ice roads and you shut off the regen switch so "them emissions don't cost the boss money up north here..." haul the truck to Edmonton $9000.00, Kenworth dismantles the DPF and cleans it and resets and changes some sensors and fixes the stuck turbo another $6000, a$$ chewin from the boss...priceless

[G&K]

Love it.

 

A certain nameless oilfield service company bypassed all their EGR/DPF/SCR system mid winter this year, and all those hangar queens are now out making their owner a buck or two.

 

You could have a very good argument that they generate less emissions per job done now.

 

Emission systems from about 2005? onward don't do well in typical oilfield service.

 

Geo

 

 

The commercial truck operators I am in contact with report fewest emission system problems with trucks that are in super B haul service 140,000lbs 63,500 kg and high ratio of loaded miles such as grain / fertilizer bulk hauling where empty miles can be as low as 20% in a well organized situation, or heavy haul tractors pulling wheelers and jeeps under big track hoes or cats. Or medium duty trucks operating at near gross weight like a tandem fuel tanker with a 300hp engine. The pedal is on the rug many hours a day.

 

The next lowest bother is very light load operation - trucks that can pull most any highway grade in road gear - the theory is the engine is under low fuel use and low EGT and is producing little to no soot (black smoke if it didn't have a filter) so filter loading and DEF requirement is low...

 

The worst seem to be folks who spec a 550hp 15 or 16 litre engine in a 3 axle and zoom around like driving a pickup truck romping on the pedal every stop light then idle the engine excessively cause that's what you do with a diesel - lots of soot production in the gear jamming starts but no work the engine hard in a lug down situation to get some temperature into the aftertreatment system...

 

No, wait, the worst is taking a truck into "camp" in the bush and leaving the engine idle at 800 rpm for 10 days at 25 and 30 below.... haul to Edmonton and fix, no warranty $20,000.00

 

No, wait, filling the DEF tank with methanol stolen from the oil company facilty ... who knew the DEF system can sense when the DEF is not DEF ? $3000

 

No, wait, how about you are hauling on the ice roads and you shut off the regen switch so "them emissions don't cost the boss money up north here..." haul the truck to Edmonton $9000.00, Kenworth dismantles the DPF and cleans it and resets and changes some sensors and fixes the stuck turbo another $6000, a$$ chewin from the boss...priceless

[shorts]

I used to work in an engine test facility where the standard test for internal parts wear and oil consumption was 10 minute warm-up/break-in and then rated peak power @110% fuel for 1000 hours, shut down for oil & filter change @ 250 hours. most engines would finish with about a 3% power loss . 1005 duty cycle, let the computer and governor drive

[Scrap]

Axles are still my limiter. Death Valley is one of the places where we have to take an early lunch and let them cool or spray them down with water to keep moving on. But hey one of the test pickups burned to the ground in that same place so I guess we are a step ahead of them. Anyways, the major difference is that you can custom spec your truck to do what you need it to do so it can run at it all day long. With the big 3 you get what they make. Not to get political, but GHG phase 2 in the coming years tries to head trucks in that same direction of sorts - do all you can to not let that happen!

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

But hey one of the test pickups burned to the ground in that same place so I guess we are a step ahead of them.

Was that the "New" all aluminium frame? Maybe that's what the problem was...testing in Death Valley..... got too hot and returned to its original state!

[rickeieio]

Was that the "New" all aluminium frame? Maybe that's what the problem was...testing in Death Valley..... got too hot and returned to its original state!

Never heard of an aluminum frame on a pick-up. Who has that?