Towability/handling - If you had the choice - TT and retain truck bed use, or 5th & convert truck bed to use?

[FlyFishn]

Those that have experience with both bumper pulls (TT's, park models, destination trailers, and the like) and 5th wheels - can you offer some experience-based perspectives to this?

The end goal is I need to use my truck bed with the functionality of an enclosed truck bed. On the surface that would preclude a 5th wheel, however I have thought through the idea of making a cap that is able to come apart/go back together. That would introduce two challenges/lack of convenience factors to a 5th wheel:

1. The 5th wheel hitch would have to come out (hoist/winch, I don't move heavy stuff like that without a hoist/winch)

2. The assembly/disassembly of said cap would take time and effort

3. Moving gear between transport storage in the 5th wheel and the truck bed would take time/effort.

 

That having been said - what I am trying to weigh the options on are:

A. Go with a bumper pull design that would:

1. Add in hitch complexity - WD, possibly sway control = poorer handling

2. Allow me to keep the truck bed enclosed as-is (F350 CCLB SRW with Leer 180 cap)

B. Go with a 5th wheel

1. No added complexity to hitch mechanics to tame handling issues

2. Adds in the complexity of converting the truck bed to enclosed used when at destination, and the moving of stuff from the RV to the truck bed.

 

I suppose the bottom line is - will the benefits of a 5th wheel out-weigh the added complexity of the enclosed truck bed use-case I have?

My gut tells me the handling would be so much better than a bumper pull. I towed a gooseneck car hauler for a couple years so I have some base of that which my gut is telling me, but the need is an enclosed truck bed. In another thread I posed the idea of a sectional trailer with an equipment section that could be split off. Though a neat idea, reality says the best way to have a starting point with things is to forego the enclosed equipment trailer idea and make do with the truck with no trailer. That may very well suffice entirely as long as between the truck and RV I have everything wherever I end up. If I am across the country and gear I need is back home that doesn't do me any good. If it is in the RV where I am based out of, but not in the truck, then worst case I would just have to go back to the RV if I didn't have a heads-up the day before to tip me off to load what I needed before I leave for the day in the first place.

Given your personal experience and transition between different RV's and set ups - what thoughts can you offer that might give us some more grounding to our thoughts and direction?

 

[Dutch_12078]

Here's one option for making the truck bed multi-use:

https://www.autoenhance.com/pickup_truck_caps.html

Edited January 31, 2022 by Dutch_12078
typo

[sandsys]

Anything that makes it harder to go decreases your odds of going.

Linda

[trailertraveler]

29 minutes ago, FlyFishn said:

F350 CCLB SRW

The Fas-Cap linked to by Dutch_12078 looks interesting. You would still have to deal with the 5th wheel hitch if it is absolutely necessary to remove it during your stays.

Will a 5th wheel within the towing specs of your truck have enough storage capacity and cargo carrying capacity to carry everything that you are planning to move into the truck bed at your destinations?

I tow a 34', 10,000# travel trailer with a Chevy 3500 CCLB SRW with a Century Cap. I tow with a Hensley Hitch and have experienced no handling issues even in winds to 45MPH or with trucks passing at high speed in the opposite direction on two lane highways. The bed of the truck is usually pretty full up to the rails with tools, fishing gear, hunting gear, camping gear and extra supplies. A roof rack on the cap carrries a 12' portabote. 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by trailertraveler

[FlyFishn]

54 minutes ago, Dutch_12078 said:

Here's one option for making the truck bed multi-use:

https://www.autoenhance.com/pickup_truck_caps.html

Interesting. I've never heard of such a thing commercially made. The functionality is getting at what my idea is, but I don't like the fabric and sliding "accordion-style" form factor. I have a fabric tonneu (extang full tilt) also and it is not very sturdy. Its been in storage for about 4-5 years, namely because I don't need to take the cap off right now and don't have anywhere to put the cap if I do take it off right now.

With a design that uses aluminum tube framing and rail mounts for said tube frame it would be pretty easy to make hard panels that screw in to the framing - and would make for a more solid attachment for a rear tilt window/door like a conventional cap.

[FlyFishn]

44 minutes ago, trailertraveler said:

Will a 5th wheel within the towing specs of your truck have enough storage capacity and cargo carrying capacity to carry everything that you are planning to move into the truck bed at your destinations?

Weight, any way you slice it, no matter where it goes, is a consideration - yes. Axle capacity on an RV is the key area I am looking at. Some units have very little room between "dry weight" and "GVWR". On the other hand, some models use higher capacity axles that their larger models in a line-up may have but are lighter weight units = more head room on payload. Lots to consider, for sure.

[rickeieio]

Is upgrading the truck an option?  Go to a DRW, or even a class 4 or 5?

[FlyFishn]

50 minutes ago, sandsys said:

Anything that makes it harder to go decreases your odds of going.

Thanks for the thoughts Linda.

The use-case I outlined isn't "pleasure camping" or "traveling", per se. It is disaster relief = working to do storm clean up, demolition, construction, etc. All that requires tools and equipment. Getting "there" (wherever "there" is) is the important thing, no matter how you slice it - "work" is the trip, in this case, and therefore the "work" to "make the trip" isn't a "make or break" deal. It certainly does add complexity, but confined largely to arrival/departure.

To contrast - the way I do things now is I camp in the truck. I have a bunk set up in the truck bed and pack all my tools/equipment in there (and some on top - ladder, fuel tanks). At night the generator is in-use and out of the truck bed so that opens up some space to where I can get in there and move things around to make it work, but there is a fair amount of "set up and tear down" every day as where I sleep is the same place I drive around with all my gear. If I split the two with an RV then I can set it up for living quarters and leave it set up, then set the truck up for using as a truck, and leave it set up, for what ever the duration is. Right now things are all combined and there is the set up/tear down every day - as simplified/bare bones as it is - it still takes time/effort every day, vs just arrival and departure.

Pleasure trips/traveling would be a different situation as the destination (if one) or the trip (if being on the road for an extended period/multiple destinations/no set destination) wouldn't contain the variety of "work tasks", though they may contain some.

[FlyFishn]

2 minutes ago, rickeieio said:

Is upgrading the truck an option?  Go to a DRW, or even a class 4 or 5?

Down the road anything is fair game. Speaking in terms of the near future - its not in the cards.

This is a bit of a tangent to the discussion at hand, but I do have a class A license (no restrictions, and doubles/triples/tanks endorsements). I would like to get a class 7 or 8 truck down the road. The reason being I don't see there being much of a benefit to payload between 3, 4, 5, and 6 and considering the cab space for as much "truck" as they may be they generally have pretty small cabs. Between all the semi's Ive driven and some smaller class 6-7 straight trucks - if I was to upgrade a truck for higher payload alone I'd be really tempted to go straight to a class 7+.

At some point in the future if I get to the point of "replacing my pickup truck" - would I go DRW then? Its possible, depending on the circumstances. My truck has been my daily driver though and a DRW would be even more of a challenge parking. Not to mention if I went to a class 7 for a pulling rig - the idea of it being a "daily driver" is out the window.

The other side to this is the "disaster relief" use case I outlined in a previous post - I can't really drive around a class 7 truck and I can't haul much gear in a toad.

[Kirk W]

Are you saying that you have a business that is related to disaster recovery? I think we may have misunderstood the idea. Lots of SKP members work disaster relief as volunteers doing cleanup and assistance but most are only there for a few weeks. 

[sandsys]

Given that we better understand your needs now I'm wondering if a motorhome towing your pickup might be a better solution for you.

Linda

[FlyFishn]

3 hours ago, Kirk W said:

Are you saying that you have a business that is related to disaster recovery? I think we may have misunderstood the idea. Lots of SKP members work disaster relief as volunteers doing cleanup and assistance but most are only there for a few weeks. 

No "business" at the moment, per se. Disaster relief is volunteer at this point. However, to ground the perspectives in the discussion - it is the biggest challenge to suit our overall "set up" to because there are a lot of dynamics to it - not simply "camping". And that is where the point of the thread comes in - to satisfy those dynamics we need an overall set up that allows use of the truck as a truck (enclosed bed). So I am trying to weigh the challenges in converting the truck bed on-site with a 5th wheel, or go the TT route.

As to lengths of stay - you're right on the mark - several days to ~3 weeks at a time maybe. We could be anywhere around the country. Down the road we would like to do more personal traveling. For the foreseeable future I think our trips together might be limited more to long weekend outings given other obligations but we don't want to constrain things to that, rather set up for the ability to be comfortable for longer periods. That gets to another thread I have in the TT forum so I won't duplicate here.

[FlyFishn]

5 hours ago, trailertraveler said:

I tow a 34', 10,000# travel trailer with a Chevy 3500 CCLB SRW with a Century Cap. I tow with a Hensley Hitch and have experienced no handling issues even in winds to 45MPH or with trucks passing at high speed in the opposite direction on two lane highways.

Interesting post. This sounds pretty close to what we're looking at.

What Hensley hitch do you have?

Did you use any hitches previously to the Hensley? If so - what made you upgrade? If not - why did you go straight to the Hensley?

Have you scaled your rig loaded on a trip? I would be curious what your numbers are - both truck ratings (axles, GVWR) and combination weights as scaled.

I looked at the ProPride's (what Hensley turned in to) about a month ago - I watched the install/set up video series. That is an intriguing hitch design, but at ~$3500 I have a hard time justifying that. That is air ride 5th wheel territory on pricing.

 

[Kirk W]

14 minutes ago, FlyFishn said:

No "business" at the moment, per se. Disaster relief is volunteer at this point.

If it would be helpful, Escapees have several Birds of a Feather groups that are disaster relief providers, mostly faith based but not all the DOVES (Disaster Operations Volunteer Escapees) are entirely disaster centered but there are several of the service groups that do at least some disaster relief projects as well. I am thinking that some of those members might be able to help by sharing what they do about taking tools and such.

[chiefneon]

Howdy!

If you want to tow a 5er trailer and not want to deal with a heavy 5th wheel hitch in the bed of you truck the best thing going now is a Reece Goose Box. You replace the 5th wheel pin box with a Reece Goose Box and use a gooseneck ball in the bed of you truck. This makes for a clean truck bed to use when needed. If you use a turn over goose neck ball that even gives you more useable truck bed area. When I purchased my last TV I decided not to go back to using a 5er hitch. I have been using a Reece Goose Box for the last three years and could not be happier with it. It is the only gooseneck hitch approved by Lippert not to void the factory warranty.

https://www.reeseprod.com/products/pin-boxes/goose-box

“Happy Trails”

Chiefneon

[D&J]

Here's another option, the first box is a 50 gal aux tank but it can be a large tool box, the second one is a box designed for a short box so its tapered at the bottom for the hitch. The other two are 10" side boxes. The hitch has been replaced by a Pullright SuperLite so its really easily removed.

I would never go to a TT because of the lack of storage when compared to a 5th wheel.

Denny

[FlyFishn]

@D&J - Thanks for the box idea. That gives me some good food for thought.

 

Though the box idea gives me some options, what it doesn't do is satisfy the "enclosed bed" idea. The volume in the boxes might only be 1/4, if that even, of the total volume available with a cap - and being separate boxes they would not be able to contain bulky things - like building materials, miter saw, table saw, etc. They will, however, be able to hold chains and other rigging gear (and keep it better organized - big plus), smaller hand held power tools, maybe some shorter long tools like sledge hammer, axe, pry bars, but not shovels.

The obvious question is can't some of that stuff get wet in an open bed - like shovels? That doesn't solve the theft problem and we've had an issue with that - working in residential areas and going back to the trucks stuff has magically walked off.

Just thinking out loud here - the box idea does most certainly help with weight distribution. That would allow a significant amount of weight to ride in the truck that would otherwise have to ride in a 5th wheel.

[FlyFishn]

3 hours ago, chiefneon said:

If you want to tow a 5er trailer and not want to deal with a heavy 5th wheel hitch in the bed of you truck the best thing going now is a Reece Goose Box.

As far as 5th wheel hitches go - I would want a conventional sturdy 5th wheel hitch. Moving it isn't much of an issue, I can set up to do that pretty easy - the rigging is already with me anyway. The only addition would be a 2nd ladder (set 2 extension ladders up as an A to get wide enough to clear the truck and hoist off the ladders - I do that all the time, not OSHA approved but I've done it for years - I did the same thing to move a chunk of limestone around 4-500lbs that we laid as a deck step, one man [+ 2 ladders, winch, & rigging] operation).

If I went non-air-ride then the B&W Companion with the Reece Elite puck system (what the OEM Ford system is) would be the route I would go (non slider, I have an 8ft bed).

If I went air-ride then Trailer Saver TS3 or TSLB2H with the same puck system.

Off topic, but for what it is worth if anyone is reading this or searches for it later - the Trailer Saver TSLB (MDT/HDT version of the TS3) does have an adapter option for the Reese Elite/Ford OEM under-bed puck system. At least they did a couple years ago... Considering that would be the hitch to get to the capacity of heavier trucks like the higher payload capacity F450's & F550's I imagine they still offer the adapter. Just pay attention to all the component ratings and if you go over 5000lb pin you need the 3ord air bag (cheaper up front, but you can upgrade it down the road). The TSLB is supposed to be 50lbs heavier than the TS3 (400lbs TS3 + puck adapter, 450lbs TSLB + puck adapter).

Edited February 1, 2022 by FlyFishn

[Pappy Yokum]

11 hours ago, FlyFishn said:

Down the road anything is fair game. Speaking in terms of the near future - its not in the cards.

This is a bit of a tangent to the discussion at hand, but I do have a class A license (no restrictions, and doubles/triples/tanks endorsements). I would like to get a class 7 or 8 truck down the road. The reason being I don't see there being much of a benefit to payload between 3, 4, 5, and 6 and considering the cab space for as much "truck" as they may be they generally have pretty small cabs. Between all the semi's Ive driven and some smaller class 6-7 straight trucks - if I was to upgrade a truck for higher payload alone I'd be really tempted to go straight to a class 7+.

At some point in the future if I get to the point of "replacing my pickup truck" - would I go DRW then? Its possible, depending on the circumstances. My truck has been my daily driver though and a DRW would be even more of a challenge parking. Not to mention if I went to a class 7 for a pulling rig - the idea of it being a "daily driver" is out the window.

The other side to this is the "disaster relief" use case I outlined in a previous post - I can't really drive around a class 7 truck and I can't haul much gear in a toad.

"Anything is fair game".....

Unless you are set on keeping the pickup you have (or?), you might spend some time on the HDT Forum (here).  A drom box behind the cab may handle the tools (etc) you want to carry.

Although you already have a CDL - one is not required in many states which allow an HDT (w/sleeper) to be licensed as a Motor Home, requiring only a std DL. (MDT = no).

Likewise, you should already be aware of the benefits of an HDT.  BTW - many of the HDT owners "single"  their HDTs (no longer tandem) - and tow the heaviest 5th wheels with ease.  Also, many carry M/Cs or a Smart car on the deck - which (for you) might be another location for *lots* more of the stuff you wish to carry.

Other side of the coin (not often thought of) - a TT (bumper pull)  is all on one level.  *If* you happen to have an injury which makes climbing stairs difficult (inside a 5th) a TT makes it considerably easier....one less set of stairs to go up & down to use "the facilities".

Good luck with....decisions, decisions !!

.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Pappy Yokum

[trailertraveler]

13 hours ago, FlyFishn said:

Interesting post. This sounds pretty close to what we're looking at.

What Hensley hitch do you have?

Did you use any hitches previously to the Hensley? If so - what made you upgrade? If not - why did you go straight to the Hensley?

Have you scaled your rig loaded on a trip? I would be curious what your numbers are - both truck ratings (axles, GVWR) and combination weights as scaled.

I looked at the ProPride's (what Hensley turned in to) about a month ago - I watched the install/set up video series. That is an intriguing hitch design, but at ~$3500 I have a hard time justifying that. That is air ride 5th wheel territory on pricing.

 

I believe they called it the Arrow. I have had it since 2007 and towed three different trailers with it. I believe the Spring Bars are 1200#. We had a 27' Class C for three years so I knew how much side push there was from wind and passing trucks at high speed on the two lane highways we prefer to travel. I towed a lot of smaller trailers and boat trailers before getting a 30' travel trailer. In our traels with the Class C we observed trailers swaying, Good friends rolled their truck and trailer due to uncontrollable sway. I bought the Hensley because we planned numerous cross country trips and I knew that if we experienced any sway it would likely be the end of DW's RVing.

I did scale the previous truck (Chevy 2500) and trailer three years ago when we bought the current trailer. The local truck scale could not do individual wheels so I rented wheel scales. All the weights were under the ratings, but I can't find the exact numbers. I seem to recall that the tongue weight was around 1100#. I haven't reweighed since I upgraded to the 3500. The rear springs are not completely compressed when loaded for travel. We seem to shed weight in the trailer with just about every trip by removing items we find that we do not use. I have also moved some heavy rarely used items (mostly tools) from the trailer to the truck.

Edited February 1, 2022 by trailertraveler

[Star Dreamer]

It looks like you have a couple of options and alot depends on what your budget is. 

1) Since you are currently using the truck bed as your camper, any trailer over 8' long is going to give you more space. Weigh your truck loaded to see what capacity you have left to pull a trailer and get the smallest one that will work for you. Then get a good hitch and sway bar attachment and keep your speeds down.

2) Go to a motorhome and pull your truck behind it.

3) Go to an HDT and build whatever storage you need on the truck and then go with whatever type of trailer you want either bumper pull or 5th wheel. You could even do a Toyhauler like ours and be able to fit a full size van to use as your work vehicle but you may have to transfer heavier tools to the truck when traveling. 

I personally think trying to make your current truck do double duty to pull a 5th wheel and securely hauling your tools will severely overload it and will cause you lots of set up time. 

[podwerkz]

Given the above requirements and parameters, I suggest keeping all the gear in the pickup topper and pull a modest sized travel trailer. 

Modest sized being important. Don't get 'wowed' by a nice 35ft travel trailer.

Stay small and maneuverable. A 22-25 footer would be about perfect, and depending on the particulars of your F-350, you probably wont even need all the extra WD hardware and sway control gizmos. Find the MINIMUM living space you can tolerate (maybe even a 20 footer or less) and your pickup will barely know it's back there....making the trips so much more enjoyable.

Arriving at your destination during some kind of disaster relief effort and then spending an hour or two transferring a hitch out of the way and all your gear into the pickup, then when you are finished, reversing all of this effort, mistakes can happen, or gear can get left behind or misplaced easily.

With the loaded P/U and small T/T you can set up (or hitch up) and pull out in 10 minutes or less...compared to a 5th wheel and transferring lots of totes full of gear back and forth repeatedly which could be a real pain at say, 11:00 at night when you've been driving all day.

Suppose it's raining and windy and cold as you know what. Or ice and snow is caked in the pickup bed  and all over your 5th wheel hitch making it a pain to mess with. Or maybe it's 109 degrees at 10:00 am and here you are about to pass out from the heat and exertion. No thanks. Not all disasters happen during pleasant 70 degree weather...as you probably know.

And of course, YMMV.

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by podwerkz

[FlyFishn]

16 minutes ago, podwerkz said:

Stay small and maneuverable. A 22-25 footer would be about perfect, and depending on the particulars of your F-350, you probably wont even need all the extra WD hardware and sway control gizmos. Find the MINIMUM living space you can tolerate (maybe even a 20 footer or less) and your pickup will barely know it's back there....making the trips so much more enjoyable.

Lots of good replies this morning and lots to think about.

In relation to the above - I appreciate the perspective. A buddy of mine has a trailer in that range that has a Murphy Bed that converts in to a couch. They really like the trailer. However, I don't like the Murphy Beds and we want a hard walled off bedroom.

This is getting to the other thread I have in the TT forum, but the 3 areas we want comfortable are: bedroom (already mentioned), kitchen, and bathroom - specifically the shower. After walking through some and feeling the space in the shower - a 30x36" is about the minimum I would be comfortable with. Between the smaller rectangular showers and the corner showers - I prefer the corner showers, if I were in desperate need to compromise on the shower size/configuration. I wouldn't be willing to compromise with a small rectangular shower, but I still don't feel the corner showers are roomy enough but they do have more side elbow room due to the angles.

The overall idea is to have 1 RV that will work for our uses. And that is a hard thing to think through. On pleasure trips we could have other friends and family along - they need a place to sleep comfortably and we need a kitchen to support people. That's where the better half's perspectives are important - I need to make sure she's well-equipped. And to that point I can already see needing to upgrade the range/oven to one that is big enough to suit her uses (I'm not opposed to that - it is a consideration as I look at counters and cabinets - I don't care about height or depth matching, if I can open up the counter and cabinets to get the width in we're all good).

I suppose another route would be to get a small cheap unit that covers the basics of what I need on trips, and will accommodate her (she won't be along for that much time on disaster relief trips as much, at least for the foreseeable future) then get a larger unit down the road. That would ease up the near-term options a bunch - and if we went that route a TT would be the obvious choice with the truck loaded as usual.

[FlyFishn]

8 hours ago, Pappy Yokum said:

Likewise, you should already be aware of the benefits of an HDT.  BTW - many of the HDT owners "single"  their HDTs (no longer tandem) - and tow the heaviest 5th wheels with ease.  Also, many carry M/Cs or a Smart car on the deck - which (for you) might be another location for *lots* more of the stuff you wish to carry.

As to the benefits - yep. There is no comparison to bigger commercial trucks (7/8, even 6 vs 5 and under) and pickups from a "heavy duty'ness" perspective. Everything is "heavier" and "more robust", not to mention the tire strength and slow wear. 500,000 miles on a semi and it still is going strong, 100,000 miles on a pickup and you're probably in "repair frequently" territory.

There is also the vehicle cost perspective. A used donor semi is probably a lot cheaper than a pickup up front. Then there is the modification and set up of said donor truck. There is a thread here I think where a guy made a bed for a semi with dry boxes in the sides and a toad mount/track/ramp system. I like the design - and I can fabricate that kind of stuff.

As to the "stuff" being contained in/on the "truck" - that is a thought. But the question of driving around and getting to sites is there. I don't know of any toad that would have the capacity of a pickup truck, and be 4wd. When I started down the road of thinking about RV options - the "stuff" aspect was always part of it. And what would be nice is to have an equipment trailer that is set up with gear ready to go. That way I don't have everything stored in my daily driver, per se (some stuff always is, but a full trip load every day doesn't make much sense). That leads in to the question of how to drive 1 vehicle without pulling double trailers (say, 5th wheel and equipment trailer behind the 5th wheel). Though some states allow doubles like that, some don't, and not knowing where we'll end up I have to plan for the places that don't. So we're back to 2 units - the truck and RV.

In the HDT scenario - what do I drive around that I can put all my gear in and work out of? I've had my pickup truck stuck before so its not out of the question, and we do get off roads - parking in yards, fields, dirt or gravel driveways, and the list goes on. Semi trucks with a driven front axle are extremely rare and when you do find them the sellers know what they have and they are extremely expensive. So going the HDT route the most I might be able to imagine is maybe a locking rear differential - and if it isn't equipped that way from the start I might be able to add it. The majority of over-the-road semis don't have driven front axle options, when you get in to some of the specialty trucks (like those chassis that vacuum trucks, dump trucks, and cement trucks are built on) then you get in to the driven front axle options - so those could be converted if not already set up that way. But going that route automatically multiplies the price, with or without the driven front axle, because those aren't your "run of the mill", "dime a dozen", over-the-road semis.

[mptjelgin]

22 minutes ago, FlyFishn said:

As to the benefits - yep. There is no comparison to bigger commercial trucks (7/8, even 6 vs 5 and under) and pickups from a "heavy duty'ness" perspective. Everything is "heavier" and "more robust", not to mention the tire strength and slow wear. 500,000 miles on a semi and it still is going strong, 100,000 miles on a pickup and you're probably in "repair frequently" territory.

With regard to pickups, this (repair frequently at 100,000 miles) has not been the case for decades. I had a 1999 F-250 gasoline engine truck that ran 150,000 miles with zero repairs, and 2010 F-350 gasoline engine truck that went over 175,000 miles (full time towing a 15,000+ pound fifth wheel) with zero repairs. I know the current owner of the 2010 and it is still going strong at 200k + miles. My current 2019 F-350 diesel has only 25,000 miles (with zero repairs) and I expect to be driving it for many more years.