Update about wrench shorting out on battery

[GlennWest]

Was putting my positive cables to one from each battery today. Noticed no spark or shunt light come on with first battery. Checked voltage and lower than should be. Checked for ground at bms to positive and zero volts. Bms fried. This had to happen when wrench shorted out. Battery pack at 49 volts. This is what all were before I bought the charger. The others  58v now. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by GlennWest

[Daveh]

Bummer.

[GlennWest]

Guy I bought from is sending me a new one.

[Kirk W]

13 hours ago, GlennWest said:

Was putting my positive cables to one from each battery today. Noticed no spark or shunt light come on with first battery.

That is the reason that most of us advocate always putting the negative cable to the frame ground back last and removing it first. If you do that you won't get the spark when a wrench slips. 

[GlennWest]

This happened some time back. I posted about it. Taking negative off would not have helped. wrench shorted out on battery case. I had neglected taping the negative connection at the bms and it was touching the frame. So it sent 48+ volts to negative side of that bms. 

[GlennWest]

I really need to move the bms to top of battery where I can get to them. That one farest from door is just about impossible to get at. That one that fried. I will have to disconnect the wall i built and lay battery packs down. I remember telling myself that bms ever fails I can't get ot it when layed that battery pack up. Just hadn't dawned on me to relocated the bms. An afterthought, with bms at top of battery and positive at top of battery is this not properly wired? I am sure the bms will equalize the cells though. I could extend the bms connection.

Edited August 8, 2021 by GlennWest

[Randyretired]

2 hours ago, Kirk W said:

That is the reason that most of us advocate always putting the negative cable to the frame ground back last and removing it first. If you do that you won't get the spark when a wrench slips. 

This was a relatively simple and effective solution until the advent of solar, inverters and lithium batteries.   Most now suggest a battery cutoff switch.  This allows the wiring to be completed and then switched on after completing necessary functions such as precharging capacitors. 

[henryaham897]

Very effective tips guys thanks a lot!

[Ray,IN]

On 8/8/2021 at 10:28 AM, Randyretired said:

This was a relatively simple and effective solution until the advent of solar, inverters and lithium batteries.   Most now suggest a battery cutoff switch.  This allows the wiring to be completed and then switched on after completing necessary functions such as precharging capacitors. 

re: what happened to Glenn; How would one install a battery cutoff between the positive cable/post and metal battery case?

[Randyretired]

5 hours ago, Ray,IN said:

re: what happened to Glenn; How would one install a battery cutoff between the positive cable/post and metal battery case?

I turn off the BMS's.  A battery cutoff doesn't have to be on the positive side. However, you are right that when working on a battery there is inherent risk that cannot be avoided.

[Ray,IN]

I  have some wrenches kept in the battery compartment that are wrapped with electrical tape except for the box-ends, and I only have FLA batteries. I learned early-on to remove all rings and watches, in a flash things get very hot.

Thanks for the education Randy, I didn't know turning off a BMS cut off voltage.

[GlennWest]

I turned mine off too. Fried it. Lol

[Kirk W]

Been working around and with batteries since the early 60's and learned very early to always lift the negative battery cable first. Can't say that I've never burned a tool but darned few from that. Now working around capacitors is an entirely different issue! 

[GlennWest]

But removing negative does nothing in my case. I have cells bolted together with negative and positive on each cell. Busbars linking each cell together. Frame work got grounded and wrench bumped it. Tapping wrench only protection for me

[57becky]

One of these will save a lot of injuries when working on batteries.  It may seem expensive, but in the end it's good insurance.  https://www.amazon.com/Klein-Tools-KT223X4-INS-Linemans-Insulating/dp/B006FXPYK2/ref=pd_sbs_6/146-5548872-2326566?pd_rd_w=fo8NY&pf_rd_p=0f56f70f-21e6-4d11-bb4a-bcdb928a3c5a&pf_rd_r=AKSMXB3AMNSG8W65ZA0P&pd_rd_r=551203b8-eabb-4972-b7c7-3554d83a5e30&pd_rd_wg=o5xCI&pd_rd_i=B006FXPYK2&psc=1

[GlennWest]

My battery bolts 10mm heads. Installing new bms. Started raining and not stopped since. Get finished when clears up I reckon. Having to change bms connector. Couldn't get exact same bms. Upgraded unit. Lengthening leads so can relocate to top.

Edited September 18, 2021 by GlennWest

[folivier]

Klein makes great crescent wrenches with insulated handles.  I've also used shrink tubing to insulate open end wrenches, makes a cleaner job than tape.  BTW wear your glasses when working around batteries!

[GlennWest]

Wear glasses, lol. I'm blind without them.

[Ray,IN]

18 hours ago, 57becky said:

One of these will save a lot of injuries when working on batteries.  It may seem expensive, but in the end it's good insurance.  https://www.amazon.com/Klein-Tools-KT223X4-INS-Linemans-Insulating/dp/B006FXPYK2/ref=pd_sbs_6/146-5548872-2326566?pd_rd_w=fo8NY&pf_rd_p=0f56f70f-21e6-4d11-bb4a-bcdb928a3c5a&pf_rd_r=AKSMXB3AMNSG8W65ZA0P&pd_rd_r=551203b8-eabb-4972-b7c7-3554d83a5e30&pd_rd_wg=o5xCI&pd_rd_i=B006FXPYK2&psc=1

However that wrench does nothing to prevent shorting battery connections to ground with the opposite end, it merely protects the user from getting an electrical charge or burned by the hot wrench.

[bobsallyh]

Another good idea when working on batteries is to remove rings and any other jewelry. A friend of mind was changing batteries in an Airstream Diesel pusher which were  a real PITA and darn near lost a finger. 

[GlennWest]

Early in my welding career, 18 years old, Welding with a ring on finger. Splatter landed on that ring. Gold really carries heat good. Needless to say I no longer wear rings.  Also just finished wiring up bms. Pack little over 58v now. 

Edited September 19, 2021 by GlennWest

[Lou Schneider]

22 hours ago, Ray,IN said:

However that wrench does nothing to prevent shorting battery connections to ground with the opposite end, it merely protects the user from getting an electrical charge or burned by the hot wrench.

Look at the pictures again, the two ends aren't connected and stop short of touching each other inside the insulated handle.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Lou Schneider

[Jaydrvr]

50 minutes ago, Lou Schneider said:

Look at the pictures again, the two ends aren't connected and stop short of touching each other inside the insulated handle.

Okay, THAT is cool! I missed that the first time around. Jay

[Ray,IN]

5 hours ago, Lou Schneider said:

Look at the pictures again, the two ends aren't connected and stop short of touching each other inside the insulated handle.

Yep, not something a feet-on-the-ground mechanic would buy or use. Lineman's insulated tools must be inspected and tested on a regular basis to insure the insulation has not lost any insulating ability. It does remind me of my FIL when he was working for Indianapolis Power and Light. Time was not a factor when working up high; safety was paramount.

Way too big and cumbersome for working in a MH battery compartment IMO.

[MNRon]

1 - I learned the lesson about wrenches around batteries at a young age when I welded a socket to a battery post accidentally in my teens.  I’m VERY careful around high currents, even with low voltages, since. 
 

2 - Some electronics require the negative cable to be connected *prior* to positive cable.  I’ve seen the technical reason for this when involved in semiconductor manufacturing in the 1980’s.  As a result I recommend others to be careful if in the practice of opening ground first…you may fry your $2k inverter or some other sensitive circuitry. 
 

3 - A shut off switch wired in on the positive cable is always a good idea