It could happen to you

[agesilaus]

2 hours ago, LindaH said:

Tom Mahood does search and rescue and on his website, he relates the story of the Death Valley Germans.  It does not have a happy ending like agesilaus' ordeal, but is fascinating reading. 

I read all the way thru that long series of posts, a month or two ago, it is an eyeopener. And I even mentioned it to the deputy as we were driving back.

DV seems to be a real attractor for the extremely unprepared, you hear all sorts of stories about people taking their Toyota Tercels or Honda Civics down roads that a well prepared CJ would be cautious going down. And when they break down they often make very bad decisions.

Those Germans are an sad point of this behavior. They were a mile or two away from a rescue cabin with food and a water source. And they had stopped at it before breaking down. But they apparently looked at the park handout and tried to hike to China Lake Navy Base which is a huge expanse of desert and would have done them no good if they had reached it.  They seem to have been working on the assumption that US military bases were like the ones the Germans have, small, fenced with guard posts.

That story was in my mind during that long night and made me realize that I was probably working on a bad assumption myself. And we turned back to known territory in the morning.

 

The rescue team was amazed that they got their rental mini car to the point where it broke down.

[Solo18]

To answer 2Gypsies, I was on the Desert View Trail.  I did a couple of captures of the Organ Pipe web site.  On one page, it still calls this hike easy, but on another it calls it easy-moderate.  No where does it tell you that you are hiking up the side of a hill and that the benches are at the top.  One site does warn you that "Trail terrain is uneven, rocky and steep in some sections. Hikers of many different abilities have hiked this route in the past. If you are curious about accessibility for your needs please contact the park."

I would not call uneven, rocky,and steep "easy."  And obviously, mentioning the "view" should have been a clue to me that it had a substantial change in elevation.  Here is a link:

https://www.nps.gov/thingstodo/hike-desert-view-trail.htm

And in response to the original poster, if they have rescued several people who made the same mistake, why do they not add a sign or two?? 

[agesilaus]

31 minutes ago, Solo18 said:

And in response to the original poster, if they have rescued several people who made the same mistake, why do they not add a sign or two?? 

An excellent point that I intend to make with the park rangers, today or Wednesday. I'm fairly sure I have identified the trouble spot.

[Solo18]

Good.  Surely a sign is much cheaper than sending out rescue teams and helicopters, to say nothing of the chances of loss of life.

[bigjim]

You may find this hard to believe but depending on how trails are marked some people think it is funny to move trail markers.  I have seen it more than once.  You need to know where you are going and how you are going to get back even without signs.  On critical trails it is even more important.

[bruce t]

Here in Australia almost every year German tourists go missing. Many see it as a badge of honour to tell adventure stories back home. In almost every case they make the fatal mistake of leaving their vehicle. Deserts are not only hot and dry but also very cold at night.

Back in 2009 we over extended in very hot conditions in the west section of Zion. We ran out of water before we got to our destination and had to hike back without any water at all. The trail was poorly marked but we should have turned around earlier.

 

[JimK]

I am 75 years old and not in especially great shape.  I have hiked many of the trails mentioned and some that are much more difficult.  If you head out on remote trails, consider your physical condition, the weather and especially the temperature.  You need appropriate clothing for swings in temperature and you need to take sufficient water.

People who complain about these trails need to look at themselves.  A mile or two with a few hundred feet change in elevation is typically going to be considered easy or at worst moderate.  If that is too much for the individual, whose fault is that?

The Wave Trail is a good example of people taking on more than they should.   The Park Service is aggressive in discussing the "difficulties" of the hike.  They require everyone to sit through a presentation and discussion of temperature and the need to carry at least a gallon of water per person.  Aside from the heat if hiked in the Summer, this is an easy, 3 mile walk over relatively flat open terrain.  Most of the trail is beaten down and it is impossible to get lost.  The last open section across a relatively flat rocky area is not marked.  Instead the NPS provides several photos showing the route.  You can actually see the destination clearly from the start of the open area.  This is an easy trail!!  But not for some.  They ignore the recommendations and do not carry a water and a snack.  They may not be able to walk a total of 6 miles and spend additional time looking at the rock formations.  Every few years someone dies or gets lost.  I do not consider that to be the fault of the NPS just because they provide the opportunity to see a small piece of semi-wilderness country.

The Swamp Trail is another example of people being out of shape or unprepared.  The NPS warns about having navigation and trail skills, staying on the trail and traveling in a clockwise direction: Swamp Canyon Trail - Bryce Canyon National Park (U.S. National Park Service) (nps.gov).  They even warn about bees, bears and mountain lions, even if those risks are extremely minimal.  Should they also tell you to stay home if you cannot walk a few miles without getting lost or fatigued?  

Edited May 5, 2021 by JimK

[folivier]

Always take a picture with your phone or camera of the map at the trailhead. 

And consider carrying something like a Spot device to call for help when you get in trouble. A Spot or other satellite device could save your life and get help to you quickly.

[agesilaus]

4 hours ago, JimK said:

People who complain about these trails need to look at themselves.  A mile or two with a few hundred feet change in elevation is typically going to be considered easy or at worst moderate.  If that is too much for the individual, whose fault is that?

I'm not complaining about the trail, I am 72 and my wife in her 60's and we know that we have to work our way up in trail difficulty. Especially since we are from that flat state Florida. AllTrails shows that we did 1500 feet of elevation gain in those two days, so climbing back up the 800 ft or so from the Swamp Canyon trail was no problem.

My complaint about the NPS is this trail junction:

 

It is very poorly marked and where people constantly get lost going down the Sheep Creek trail instead of completing the Swamp Canyon loop. Swamp Canyon is not mentioned at that intersection. If the just put up a sign pointing the right way or added Swamp Canyon Loop to the Under the Rim trail sign that would mostly put an end to people going on the Sheep Creek trail by mistake.

As for our mistakes, yeah I made a bunch of them. The Swamp Canyon loop was a spontaneous decision based on what a Ranger suggested when I asked for a less congested trail, this was a Saturday. No signal at the trailhead so I could not download the maps on AllTrails. I left the NatGeo paper map back at the RV. And we went counterclockwise based on info from a couple of hikers coming up who told us that coming back up was more gradual that way. I never saw the NPS page on the trail and their trail paper map is pathetic.

But the NPS knows that people are getting lost and just fixing the problem with a clear sign at the intersection would fix most of that. So yes they are at fault too.

We had plenty of water for the planned hike, 3 liters, and snacks. We had fire starters, multitool, space blanket, 550 cord, insect repellent, sunscreen and other emergency supplies. So we were partially prepared but not enough.

Edited May 5, 2021 by agesilaus

[agesilaus]

8 hours ago, bruce t said:

Here in Australia almost every year German tourists go missing. Many see it as a badge of honour to tell adventure stories back home. In almost every case they make the fatal mistake of leaving their vehicle. Deserts are not only hot and dry but also very cold at night.

My understanding, and it may be wrong, is that there is a very long running fascination with the American West as in gunfighter legends, in Germany. We had a period when cheap dime novels extolled the stories of gunfighters like Billy the Kid. I understand that those were translated into German and sold very well in Germany. This was back in the late 1800's. I'd guess there may have been something like that with the Australian legends. Apparently that German fascination still exists.

[JimK]

6 hours ago, agesilaus said:

But the NPS knows that people are getting lost and just fixing the problem with a clear sign at the intersection would fix most of that. So yes they are at fault too.

 

 

Or they could take out all of the signage.  Quite often the NPS has been removing trail markers and signs and leaving trails and travel up to the individual.  Otherwise nothing is ever good enough.  Someone will always want better signs and markings and safety ropes and warnings and ideally a paved walk suitable for wheel chairs.

[2gypsies]

11 hours ago, JimK said:

The Wave Trail is a good example of people taking on more than they should.   The Park Service is aggressive in discussing the "difficulties" of the hike.  They require everyone to sit through a presentation and discussion of temperature and the need to carry at least a gallon of water per person.  Aside from the heat if hiked in the Summer, this is an easy, 3 mile walk over relatively flat open terrain.  Most of the trail is beaten down and it is impossible to get lost.  The last open section across a relatively flat rocky area is not marked.  Instead the NPS provides several photos showing the route.  You can actually see the destination clearly from the start of the open area.  This is an easy trail!!  But not for some.  They ignore the recommendations and do not carry a water and a snack.  They may not be able to walk a total of 6 miles and spend additional time looking at the rock formations.  Every few years someone dies or gets lost.  I do not consider that to be the fault of the NPS just because they provide the opportunity to see a small piece of semi-wilderness country.

 

First, The Wave isn't NPS, it's BLM land.  They only give 10 in-person permits per day and we were two of 119 waiting that day.  We were thrilled!  We are very experienced hikers. We hike at just about every RV stop.  We've done Guadalupe Peak, TX - 8 mi. 3,000' elevation gain, Mt. Wrightson, AZ - 12 mi. 4200' elevation gain, Ice Lake, CO - 8 mi. 2400' elevation gain (1600' in the first 2 miles), we hiked the Grand Canyon Bright Angel Trail and hundreds more over the years.  When we did The Wave we weren't given a color map with photos of viewpoint as they do now. There weren't any direction posts.  It had rained hard the day before and we left at 6am so no footprints to follow. We made it to The Wave and went beyond to the Second Wave and to the Alcove.  - an awesome hike. I think it was about 9 mi with the additions.  We carried 5-7 liters of water in our hydration packs along with stuffing as many extra bottles as we could into our backpacks.  We carried lunch and snacks.  We were prepared.  On the return after getting off the slickrock and into the deep sand we headed straight through the sagebrush.  We must have come off the slickrock in a slightly different spot than we went up.  Continuing on we were below a ridge rather than being on it.  That was our mistake.  Again... absolutely no trail and following the GPS it was taking us in the correct direction but a long way around.

The point is.... no matter how good you are ... mistakes are made.  I read an account of a very experienced mountain hiker where we were this winter who got to high elevation and it started to hail and snow.  He got off trail and they found him dead two days later.  It happens.

[bruce t]

This isn't a new problem. How many folks start the Bright Angel trail at GC each year and get airlifted back. You need to know your limits and be prepared.

[Ray,IN]

Didn't I hear on  TV some states are now charging rescue costs to the rescued?

[JimK]

3 hours ago, 2gypsies said:

.....We made it to The Wave and went beyond to the Second Wave and to the Alcove.  - an awesome hike. I think it was about 9 mi with the additions.  ...... Again... absolutely no trail and following the GPS it was taking us in the correct direction but a long way around.

 

You make it sound like a fisherman's tale.  The hike to the Wave is 3 miles each way on pretty open, flat terrain and the second way is merely a few hundred yards from the first.

It hardly seems like a GPS would be needed but I guess that helped.  I went in 2012.  I don't know if the photocopied pictures were any better at that time.

[agesilaus]

LOL we know our limits, we were at Zion last week and gave zero consideration to hiking Bright Angel. We were perfectly prepared fo a four mile loop with an 800 ft elevation gain. But were unprepared for the nps failure to mark the trails properly. We did cover over 15 miles and 1700 feet of elevation and survived a 30 deg night out.

We did speak to rangers today, the one on the Trails table told us "That we were not well prepared since we got lost." See the above answer. I insisted on seeing a manager and that one told us:

"They know about the problem and put up a sign last September but Have not checked it since! Rangers do not walk the trails.

I asked about Trail Blazes which are called for in the newest NPS trail guidance and was told that she does not want to deface natural features!! These 'blue blazes are used in other NPS parks, Acadia for one.

My wife asked, "You would rather visitors get lost and be endangered?"

To which the boss ranger replied, "very few get lost."

But they have no idea how many get lost, they did not know about us, the Sheriff Dept does the rescues and does not report those to the NPS. So 50 people could get lost and the NPS would be in blissful and intentional ignorance.

 

[JimK]

I have seen plenty of trails where the markers, signs and cable grips have been removed to help restore some semblance of undisturbed nature.  I am all for that approach.  The other approach has been all too common and has included rows of markers, even painted footprints, lots of fences and cables, and avoidance of any major hazards.  Stay on the improved, paved, wheel chair access sidewalks if that is what you want.  Personally I do not see the need to protect people from nature, rather it is past time to protect nature from the people.  

[Kirk W]

While I can appreciate the differing opinions expressed in this thread and as a former hiker into remote areas, it does cross my mind that one aspect of the trail marking discussion should be funding. Our national parks are in a financial bind that continues to get worse each year. Congress continues to add more lands to the NPS responsibility without providing additional funding in many cases, and without adequate funding in all cases. To improve trail marking, or even trail safety is not without expense and the NPS just doesn't have the resources to do everything. Improved trail marking is probably asked for by a very small number of users, when compared to those who want better roads, improved campgrounds, and a wide range of customer services. Most of us tend to think that the park features that we use most should be at the top of the budget priorities, but for the NPS leadership, there simply is no answer. 

Some years ago, while volunteering at Government Canyon State Natural Area near San Antonio, one of the local volunteers was discussing funding for that facility and other TX parks when he made the following statement. "No matter what the question is, if you dig deeply enough the answer will always be money."

Edited May 6, 2021 by Kirk W

[Randyretired]

Many of the National Parks are charging some pretty steep fees.  As I have watched these fees rise exponentially the improvements do not seem to reflect the higher fees.  It does seem to keep some from visiting so it might help to keep the numbers of visitors to a more manageable level. 

[Kirk W]

2 hours ago, Randyretired said:

Many of the National Parks are charging some pretty steep fees.  As I have watched these fees rise exponentially the improvements do not seem to reflect the higher fees.  It does seem to keep some from visiting so it might help to keep the numbers of visitors to a more manageable level. 

 Current park fees, per vehicle:

Quote

Of the 417 total NPS sites, only 118 charge admission fees. The proposed rates would significantly increase the costs to enter the parks during their busiest months. Entry at these parks currently costs $25 or $30 per vehicle, no matter the season.

By comparison these prices are per person and parking costs extra. 

Quote

Disney World ticket prices 2021

WALT DISNEY WORLD TICKET PRICES

2021 BASE TICKET PRICES
NUMBER OF DAYS	PER DAY PRICE RANGE ADULT (10+)	PER DAY PRICE RANGE CHILD (3-9)
1	$109 - $159	$104 - $154
2	$107 - $155	$101 - $150
3	$105 - $149	$100 - $144

 

[agesilaus]

4 hours ago, Kirk W said:

Our national parks are in a financial bind that continues to get worse each year.

The last administration added a big block of money to the NPS, was it $10,000,000,000? And every major park and most minor parks have a 'Friends of This Park', assiciation. And that group would be happy to blaze trails for free

As for Jim's comment, the American public has paid for these parks. Most of us do not get a chance to fully enjoy the parks until we retire and are not at our physical peak. Your elitist scheme would deny park access to the the many but make the many pay for their use by the few..

Edited May 6, 2021 by agesilaus

[agesilaus]

7 minutes ago, Kirk W said:

$25 or $30 per vehicle, no matter the season.

That would be $35 at the major parks and I think it has been for a year or two now.

 

And the comparison to Disney is a non sequitur, the taxpayer has not been funding Disney thru taxes. Which is the case with the parks

Edited May 6, 2021 by agesilaus

[Kirk W]

The Economics of National Parks

The NPS Budget for 2021

NPS Deferred Maintenance

Edited May 6, 2021 by Kirk W
added 2 informational links

[Randyretired]

Comparing National Parks to private enterprise is off the charts.  Private enterprise must pay for the initial cost of  park, the operation and make a profit. My point remains that National Parks fees are rising faster than inflation and the cost is now more than some can pay.  Your point that only 118 National Parks charge these fees means that only those rich enough can enjoy those parks.  Most of these National Parks also charge additional fees for camping and other activities such as $20 to launch or retrieve a boat.

[JimK]

2 hours ago, agesilaus said:

 

As for Jim's comment, the American public has paid for these parks. Most of us do not get a chance to fully enjoy the parks until we retire and are not at our physical peak. Your elitist scheme would deny park access to the the many but make the many pay for their use by the few..

By your argument, perhaps it would make sense to pave the hiking trail so others unable to hike could enjoy the area.  If not a highway, then for sure an improvement trail, preferably paved and available to those with wheel chairs.