300’ cellular tower at Escapees Care?

[Ray,IN]

I've been doing a lot of reading on the internet since I began following this thread. There is so much conflicting information, mostly from blog writers about 5G, I just quit reading. I did find several technical documents  that were interesting reading, one in particular was somewhat disturbing, it stated the leading carriers are trying to get a law passed that will prevent local cities from any participation in where mini-towers are placed or how many. This pdf is dry reading-and long IMO, however it seems factual.

This was my search terms and results: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=5g+cell+tower+diagram&t=ffnt&ia=web

[rynosback]

4 hours ago, Barbaraok said:

Did you read what I wrote?  If one has a minimal basic biology/chemistry education one knows that any thing introduced into the lungs except moist air, has adverse effects.    There is no good vaping.  And if you vape, you are doing harm to yourself.  How much will be based upon a lot of things, but harm nonetheless.   And we don't know what effect that vapor has on those around you.   I am quit sure that we will see second-hand vapor damage, just like second-hand smoke damage.   

I did read it and got it. Smoking either way is not good. I agree. Completely. But my point is that people have been smoking regular cigarettes for decades and get deadly diseases from it. But vaping is seeming to have killed people in a very short period of time. Would you agree? 
Heck breathing the air in a lot of places are not healthy. Would you agree?

The point being is that you do not see 20 some year olds that died from smoking Cigarettes but there are documented cases of them dying from the result of vaping.  
I would ask if you believe in global warming, but that would be another can of worms.

Edited November 6, 2019 by rynosback
Won’t edit

[Barbaraok]

Ryan, are you suggesting that those who haven't dropped dead from vaping are ok?  Or that there is some kind of safe vaping?  Because there isn't.   Yes, it seems those that are trying to vape weed are the ones getting sick earlier, probably because of the solvents used.  Does that mean others won't have trouble - no.  

It is climate change, which occurs all of the time, but which has been altered  because of industrialization and the lack of a willingness to use other forms of energy besides fossil fuels.  

[rynosback]

38 minutes ago, Barbaraok said:

Ryan, are you suggesting that those who haven't dropped dead from vaping are ok?  Or that there is some kind of safe vaping?  Because there isn't.   Yes, it seems those that are trying to vape weed are the ones getting sick earlier, probably because of the solvents used.  Does that mean others won't have trouble - no.  

It is climate change, which occurs all of the time, but which has been altered  because of industrialization and the lack of a willingness to use other forms of energy besides fossil fuels.  

Well I guess that we/I will have to agree to disagree. I never mind a good debate as you can learn a lot. But for some reason I’m not able to communicate to you effectively that you understand what I’m saying.

Edited November 6, 2019 by rynosback

[Barbaraok]

Do you disagree that we are a scientifically illiterate society?    Is that the divergent point?    I will admit that I'm continually amazed at how people will believe pseudo-science and reject actual science.  

[chirakawa]

6 hours ago, Barbaraok said:

Do you disagree that we are a scientifically illiterate society?    Is that the divergent point?    I will admit that I'm continually amazed at how people will believe pseudo-science and reject actual science.  

Barb, I think most people accept that you are a scientist and possess knowledge that most of us do not.  Yes, we are scientifically illiterate.  You can say the same about History, Geography, Math, Literature, Government, English Grammar, etc. etc.  The fact is that once we leave school, we no longer study those subjects which don't specifically apply to our everyday vocation.  How many carpenters, plumbers, mechanics, welders, etc. do you know who go home tired at night and read up on radio frequency radiation?  Most people receive their information from the media, good or bad.

Carlos says that this information is readily available at our fingertips.  Okay.  However, most of us lack the basic knowledge to even find the information.  Then, we have to sort through what is "pseudo-science" and what is "actual science"  I did a simple internet search for something like "health effects of living near cellular tower" and it came back with many, many pages of studies and reports and blogs and opinions.  The layman has no way of knowing which of these are legitimate or not.  Here's some examples:

https://emwatch.com/cell-tower-health-risks/

https://mdsafetech.org/cell-tower-health-effects/

http://it-takes-time.com/2015/09/22/health-effects-of-cell-towers/

http://sixwise.com/newsletters/05/09/28/what_are_the_dangers_of_living_near_Cell_phone_towers.htm

You say we should accept the word of scientists, that low power radio waves are not harmful.  Okay, so in the traditional sense of harmful, like cooking our flesh with radio waves they are not.  But, maybe there are other effects which we are not aware of, long term effects.  And, like has already been pointed out, scientists and doctors lied to us for decades about smoking.  There's also the asbestos thing, and many pharmacy products which caused irreparable harm after we were told they were safe.  You can't blame the public for being skeptical of authority on these subjects.

It also doesn't help when knowledgeable persons like yourself and Carlos come on here and berate others with a condescending attitude.  People have concerns, are fearful.  If you want to help, then share your knowledge, don't flaunt it.

JMO

 

[TXiceman]

Barb, as a retired mechanical engineer from the industrial refrigeration field and a HAM radio operator, I understand what you mean by the scientifically illiterate.  I always try to educate folks that are non-scientific or non-technical, but there are some that do not want o become educated on a matter, even in the most simplistic of terms.  For those, I just provide the information for them to digest, and move on.

It can be equated to the old saying that you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink.

Ken

[Carlos]

11 hours ago, Ray,IN said:

it stated the leading carriers are trying to get a law passed that will prevent local cities from any participation in where mini-towers are placed or how many.

This may seem bad at first, but look at the other side.  Right now, carriers have to battle thousands of municipalities across the country who all want to shake them down for some cash.  Many cities want grease in order to allow carriers to fill their network, particularly in corrupt places like Chicago and NY.  Then there are different sets of paperwork and rules to deal with all over the place, which just creates useless work.  The carriers are asking for the federal laws to be the controlling factor.

I brought internet service to most of the rural parts of AZ in the 90s.  Most cities were very welcoming, knowing that this was a benefit both to the city and to everyone in it.  Some cities wanted a kickback, which we wouldn't do.  And in a few places I was asked for personal payments, which I certainly wouldn't do.  Guess which cities didn't get any internet?  We don't want a situation once again where the local mafia controls what the citizens get.

10 hours ago, Barbaraok said:

Yes, it seems those that are trying to vape weed are the ones getting sick earlier, probably because of the solvents used.  Does that mean others won't have trouble - no.  

But surely you'd agree that vaping PG/EG is a relatively unknown area, and we COULD find out that it's good for you?  I mean, unlikely, sure, but recent studies also show that the ultra low sodium diets that were supposed to be great for you are also correlating with heart issues.  Sometimes the obvious isn't so obvious.  I can't find strong evidence of long term PG/EG vaping's effects.  Also, "good" is so relative.  A little bit of something can reduce X negative effect, but increase Y negative effect.  Then the question becomes, which is worse?  And how much is dependent on individual physiology?

On the issue of radio waves, we've been studying that for a very long time.  The 5G thing is just a slight variation on what we've been doing for many decades.

1 hour ago, chirakawa said:

It also doesn't help when knowledgeable persons like yourself and Carlos come on here and berate others with a condescending attitude.  People have concerns, are fearful.  If you want to help, then share your knowledge, don't flaunt it.

You are correct.  I was wrong.  It's frustrating because people make ridiculous claims as fact, and the natural reaction is to laugh at it because it's kind of crazy.  Earlier in this thread someone claimed that 5G was 1000 times more powerful than current cellular.  Total BS, it's about 2-4x weaker.  You see that and it's just the tip of the BS iceberg.

 

[GR "Scott" Cundiff]

If I might interrupt - is the tower being built or not?  On Escapees property or not? Will it enhance local cell service or just be a relay?

[Barbaraok]

9 minutes ago, Carlos said:

 

But surely you'd agree that vaping PG/EG is a relatively unknown area, and we COULD find out that it's good for you?  I mean, unlikely, sure, but recent studies also show that the ultra low sodium diets that were supposed to be great for you are also correlating with heart issues.  Sometimes the obvious isn't so obvious.  I can't find strong evidence of long term PG/EG vaping's effects.  Also, "good" is so relative.  A little bit of something can reduce X negative effect, but increase Y negative effect.  Then the question becomes, which is worse?  And how much is dependent on individual physiology?

NO I don't agree.  The lungs are fragile, they need moist air, period.  Will everyone who inhales pollutants develop cancer, no.  Some people have better repair systems for internal damage, which is why it is so important to choose your grandparents with care.   You don't need long term studies, it is already readily apparent to anyone whose neurons fire, that introducing pollutants into the lungs can cause death.  And yes, there are some medications that are given via the lungs - those are water soluble medications and are monitored closely because there can be problems.    

Ultra low sodium diets are fads - nothing that anyone with a working knowledge of the sodium-potassium pump functioning of cells (ie, people with basic biology) would think is responsible.   And yes, a lot of physicians have very little idea of how the body actually functions.   You need O2 to live, but in a very narrow range.  In fact too much O2 is quite harmful - - it is a delicate balance to make sure premies get enough O2 into their system without the PO2 becoming to high and damaging the eyes.  All most everything is a balancing act.  Not enough water, you die.  Drink too much water, to fast, death by water intoxication and brain swelling.  

[Carlos]

It's interesting that you are one-sided about the vaping health relationship.  Do you have evidence that PG/EG are specifically bad, or are you saying you're assuming so because of lack of evidence to the contrary? 

[Barbaraok]

Any foreign substance introduced into the lungs is bad for you.  What part of that don’t  You understand?  Will you die right away, maybe, maybe not.  Maybe your fortunate and your cell repair system operates at 110%.  But you will damage your lungs and you are bypassing part of the body’s detoxification system in the liver and sending the xenobiotic material straight to the brain., which is the point of smoking or vaping.  

[Carlos]

Just now, Barbaraok said:

Any foreign substance introduced into the lungs is bad for you.  What part of that don’t  You understand?

Well, the part where it's simply not true.  For example, my wife needs a nebulizer.  It's not bad for you.  Therefore, there may be other substances that are also not bad for you.

 

[Barbaraok]

3 minutes ago, Carlos said:

Well, the part where it's simply not true.  For example, my wife needs a nebulizer.  It's not bad for you.  Therefore, there may be other substances that are also not bad for you.

 

Wrong.  Yes there are WATER SOLUBLE compounds that are used for breathing treatments to increase diameter of airways.  And it is a trade off of increased air movement versus small damage to the existing lung tissue.  Biggest benefit is from the increased pressure and increase moisture of the air moving into the lungs.  But go ahead, vape, and years from now join the class action suits because you ignored warnings and Damaged your lung tissues, not to mention whatever damage done to brain and circulatory system. 

[Carlos]

I don't vape, this was merely a discussion on the merits of various health claims.  Your assumptions about vaping seem to have the same scientific foundation as the anti-5G stuff, which is both interesting and terribly sad.  PG is very water soluble, being a rather small molecule with two hydroxyls.  The primary benefit of the nebulizer for my wife, according to her doctors (two), is the instant delivery of medication to her lungs.  She's instructed to FIRST try deep breathing, and then use the actual medicine. 

Edited November 6, 2019 by Carlos

[Barbaraok]

I'm surprised that you would try to equate medically necessary (and well researched) breathing treatments with unregulated, unknown chemical composition that people are pulling into their lung and the fact that people are dying.  I've sent you a PM.  

[Carlos]

I'm not equating anything.  I'm simply pointing out that we don't KNOW that it's bad.  Also, I can't find evidence of deaths from PG/EG vaping, only from various oils used with canabis.  My only point is that it's so far unknown, as far as I can find, and in the scientific method we need to allow for the possibility of it being good.

Example:  Cigar smokers (I am one) have lower incidences of certain cancers.  We don't know why.

[Kirk W]

3 hours ago, GR "Scott" Cundiff said:

If I might interrupt - is the tower being built or not?  On Escapees property or not? Will it enhance local cell service or just be a relay?

It is important to note that the CARE facility is not owned, controlled, or in any way managed by the Escapee organization. It was begun by Kay Peterson as her special project and the land that it sits on was donated to the CARE center by the Escapees/Petersons. Quite a few years back the CARE center was incorporated as a non-profit, IRS 501c3 charitable organization and completely separated from the Escapees. The Escapees management/ownership plays no part in the operation of it today other than sponsoring fundraising efforts for CARE. Therefor the Escapees are not involved in this decision in any way. 

[Barbaraok]

Carlos, I give up.   If you can't see the difference between necessary, medically tested/monitored treatment and vaping and cigar smoking then have it.  

[Carlos]

I can see the difference.  I completely acknowledge all substances are different.  "Medically necessary" doesn't make it automatically safe, and untested doesn't automatically make it unsafe.  I'm allowing for the idea that absent evidence otherwise, PG could be just fine or end up being beneficial in some unexpected way.  You can continue claiming that PG must be unsafe, without evidence, but then that's exactly what the 5G people are doing.

Also, cigars are not inhaled.

[filthy-beast]

I vape and have been for years. Is it good for me, no, is it better than the 1.5 packs of Kool menthol I used smoke, without a doubt. Should any none smoker ever vape, NO. PG is used for none water soluble medications to make them work in a nebulizer. It not in the same concentration and it it not heated like it is in when vaping.

There are two big problems with the vaping fad. First is all these people who want to create big clouds of smoke, they do this by using very high heat, instead of just enough. Which can causing throat and lung damage just from the heat.

The 2nd and more dangerous is all the flavor additives.  Just because fake apple, cinnamon, and all the other flavors are FDA approved for food does not make them safe to heat and breath.

PG is also used in cigar humidors because of it's ability to hold and regulate moisture, so if your vaping it, you better be increasing your water intake or it will suck moisture out of you.

I only use a mix of PG/VG and nicotine with no flavors, in hopes of limiting the unknown risks.

I'm also a HAM with an Extra class license.  The frequency spectrum is well understood along with the effects of different frequencies at different strengths and the effects on the human body.  Designing an antenna and how the signal will propagate and at what strengths is also well know. People seem to worry to much about an antenna on a 300ft tower and not enough about the one next their head or in a pocket next to their privates.

[Carlos]

18 minutes ago, filthy-beast said:

Just because fake apple, cinnamon, and all the other flavors are FDA approved for food does not make them safe to heat and breath.

A funny side note...I have a friend who vapes strawberry/raspberry all the time.  I recently explained to her how many berry flavors contain castoreum, which is taken from the anal glands of a beaver.  (Technically, the castor glands which are anus-adjacent, but I used the other terminology for effect.)  In fact there's one company embracing the whole thing and they make Beaver Butt Boogie vape juice.  She switched flavors.

18 minutes ago, filthy-beast said:

PG is also used in cigar humidors because of it's ability to hold and regulate moisture, so if your vaping it, you better be increasing your water intake or it will suck moisture out of you.

PG is not able to regulate humidity, it can only ADD humidity to about 70-75%.  I don't use PG in my humidors for that reason; I use packs that can both take in and provide humidity, and run at 69% which is much better than the higher humidity of PG.

Also, nice Jeep.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Carlos

[Pappy Yokum]

On 11/6/2019 at 7:55 AM, GR "Scott" Cundiff said:

If I might interrupt - is the tower being built or not?  On Escapees property or not? Will it enhance local cell service or just be a relay?

Well Scott - you got  *ONE*  of your questions answered......The tower won't be on Escapees property.

NEXT question:  *IF* the tower is built (or construction started) ......

How far away does one need to be -  to *safely* vape, smoke a cigarette or cigar ??

Would the combined effects (of two or three) be greater than a single exposure?

Could the RF (or?) emitted from the tower cause a vape "cigarette" to explode?

Only scientifically documented replies please. 

~

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Pappy Yokum
Typo corrected.

[GR "Scott" Cundiff]

3 hours ago, Pappy Yokum said:

Well Scott - you got  *ONE*  of your questions answered......The tower won't be on Escapees property.

NEXT question:  *IF* the tower is built (or construction started) ......

How far away does one need to be -  to *safely* vape, smoke a cigarette or cigar ??

Would the combined effects (of two or three) be greater than a single exposure?

Could the RF (or?) emitted from the tower cause a vape "cigarette" to explode?

Only scientifically documented replies please. 

~

 

Ha - I just gave up - folks had moved on to arguing about vaping. 

I'll be over there next week - maybe I'll find someone to ask about it then.  (Ask about the tower - not about vaping).

[rynosback]

3 hours ago, GR "Scott" Cundiff said:

Ha - I just gave up - folks had moved on to arguing about vaping. 

I'll be over there next week - maybe I'll find someone to ask about it then.  (Ask about the tower - not about vaping).

So sorry, I started it as a comparison as in my opinion they both will have health issues. Both being 5g and vaping. 
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