RandyA Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 On 6/9/2018 at 3:59 PM, Mark and Dale Bruss said: The forward tilt during braking was well established in the early inertial controllers where level needed to be established. The later versions now self level. Then there is the empirical data from many HDTs not being satisfied with Prodigy and Genisys controllers providing braking for the trailer. The empirical data from many HDT's is, in my opinion, the most relevant statement. As noted earlier I have used the Prodigy, Hayes Air, and BrakeSmart (early version of the MaxBrake). I prefer the BrakeSmart but intend to try the Prodigy again because the BrakeSmart has a nasty habit of pulsing the brake signal line every 5 seconds or so. The pulse is strong enough to activate the electric over hydraulic master cylinder for the disc brakes on the trailer, which will clap the disc pads to the rotor without any user pedal pressure. I can clearly see the theory behind what you explained. If we only had the "early inertial controllers" to work with, I would totally agree with most all of your response. BTW, thank you for taking the time to explain. But, the inertia controllers available today, for example, the Prodigy 3, is a totally different controller. As you noted we no longer need to level the controller because the old analog pendulum is long gone. In its place is a state of art 360-degree axis digital g-sensor coupled with a partially user programmable microcontroller. When the controller senses the signal from brake light activation the controller can send an initial higher user selected and timed "boost voltage" to the trailer brakes that compensates for the lag we had with early controllers. I started my HDT experience with a dual tandem axle Volvo that had the hitch centered over the axles. Eventually, the power divider axle was dropped and the rear axle moved forward. The hitch is now at the very back of the truck. I have not noted any difference in lift or downforce when braking after these changes. The HDT suspension is extremely stout and not affected by a change in the pin thrust or pull like a F-150 LGT would experience. Most all of us are using airbag hitches or pin boxes that work well to counteract these changes. Perhaps the actual proof would be a challenge for "Myth Busters" tho I doubt that they would see much benefit in designing a program around the issue. I'm not trying to prove right or wrong. I just can't buy into the concept of a modern inertia controller being a bad choice for a HDT. At 50 mph we are traveling 74 feet per second. Every second or millisecond that we don't have effective braking will extend our stopping distance. I am in total agreement that braking control is not something to skimp on and would never suggest that choosing a less effective controller to save a few bucks is OK. Randy, Nancy and Oscar "The Great White" - 2004 Volvo VNL670, D12, 10-speed, converted to single axle pulling a Keystone Cambridge 5th wheel, 40', 4 slides and about 19,000# with empty tanks. ARS - WB4BZX, Electrical Engineer, Master Electrician, D.Ed., Professor Emeritus - Happily Retired! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuiteSuccess Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 Randy, Does the Maxbrake pulse like the old BrakeSmart? Second, my new coach has disc brakes, do I need to purchase an electric/hydraulic converter or are they standard equipment on the coach (I assume they would be)? 2006 Volvo 780 "Hoss" Volvo D12, 465hp, 1650 ft/lbs tq., ultrashift Bed Build by "JW Morgan's Custom Welding" 2017 DRV 39DBRS3 2013 Smart Passion Coupe "Itty Bitty" "Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertMiner Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 How are your trailer brakes working now on the new to you trailer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big5er Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 Carl, your brakes ARE Electric/Hydraulic. All you need in the truck is an electric brake controller: Hayes, DirecLink, Prodigy, etc. Your HDT isn't any different than a LDT as far as the signal it sends to the trailer. The difference is your HDT has airbrakes and can use a controller that operates using the airbrake system, or as Randy says, an inertia type controller like an LDT. MY PEOPLE SKILLS ARE JUST FINE.~It's my tolerance to idiots that needs work.~ 2005 Volvo 780 VED12 465hp / Freedomline transmission singled mid position / Bed by Larry Herrin2018 customed Mobile Suites 40KSSB3 2014 smart Fortwo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERO Maker Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 Or you can put a BluDot System on it!! Rocky & Sheri Rhoades '01 Volvo 770 2016 DRV Mobile Suites, HoustonHERO Makers Ministry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuiteSuccess Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 Desert, Phil, Rocky, No, I understand HOW the brakes work with the HDT. What I’m asking is does my Maxbrake pulse like Randy mentioned with the BrakeSmart? If so it is putting the pads against the rotor every 5 seconds which would lead to heat buildup and premature pad wear. The Maxbrake is basically a gen2 BrakeSmart. The second question pertains to how discs vs. drum brakes work. On my old trailer, I had drums which ONLY required an electrical signal to a magnet at the wheel to work. Discs require that signal to be converted from electric to hydraulic to activate the brakes. I assumed the trailer already had that piece of equipment built in but wanted to be sure it was nothing I needed to add. 2006 Volvo 780 "Hoss" Volvo D12, 465hp, 1650 ft/lbs tq., ultrashift Bed Build by "JW Morgan's Custom Welding" 2017 DRV 39DBRS3 2013 Smart Passion Coupe "Itty Bitty" "Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuiteSuccess Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 10 hours ago, DesertMiner said: How are your trailer brakes working now on the new to you trailer? How does that answer the question about pulsing? It does answer the question about the converter already being present. 2006 Volvo 780 "Hoss" Volvo D12, 465hp, 1650 ft/lbs tq., ultrashift Bed Build by "JW Morgan's Custom Welding" 2017 DRV 39DBRS3 2013 Smart Passion Coupe "Itty Bitty" "Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickeieio Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 Carl, We also have disc brakes. We had a hydraulic pump which was switched "on" by the signal from the brake controller. This applied the brakes. You could hear the pump run when doing a "tug test" when hooking up. I converted to the BluDot system which took the electronics out of the equation, so now air pressure applies the force to activate the hydraulic booster. I would think that if the MaxBrake were pulsing, you could hear the hydraulic pump, if you were standing by the compartment where it's located. Ours was in the front by one of the jack legs.. KW T-680, POPEMOBILE Newmar X-Aire, VATICAN Lots of old motorcycles, Moto Guzzi Griso and Spyder F3 currently in the front row Young enough to play in the dirt as a retired farmer. contact me at rickeieio1@comcast.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuiteSuccess Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 5 minutes ago, rickeieio said: Carl, We also have disc brakes. We had a hydraulic pump which was switched "on" by the signal from the brake controller. This applied the brakes. You could hear the pump run when doing a "tug test" when hooking up. I converted to the BluDot system which took the electronics out of the equation, so now air pressure applies the force to activate the hydraulic booster. I would think that if the MaxBrake were pulsing, you could hear the hydraulic pump, if you were standing by the compartment where it's located. Ours was in the front by one of the jack legs.. Thanks Rick, great solution. 2006 Volvo 780 "Hoss" Volvo D12, 465hp, 1650 ft/lbs tq., ultrashift Bed Build by "JW Morgan's Custom Welding" 2017 DRV 39DBRS3 2013 Smart Passion Coupe "Itty Bitty" "Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickeieio Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 Another thought.....if the controller were pulsing, you'd see the light blink in your Jackalopee. KW T-680, POPEMOBILE Newmar X-Aire, VATICAN Lots of old motorcycles, Moto Guzzi Griso and Spyder F3 currently in the front row Young enough to play in the dirt as a retired farmer. contact me at rickeieio1@comcast.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyA Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 Carl - plug the camper into the truck and wait a few minutes while you sit close to the trailer electric/hydraulic controller. No need to turn on the truck ignition. If the MaxBrake does indeed send a pulse designed to verify a connected and working electro/hydraulic controller you will hear the electro/hydraulic controller motor quickly turn on and then off. Incidentally, the electro/hydraulic controller uses a motor with a screw to push in on the master cylinder. Same with my "old" HydroStar and with the new Dexter dual master cylinder. I discovered this quirk during the night when I kept hearing the clapping sound. When I discovered the source I started disconnecting the truck from the trailer at night. I can't say that this is harmful or engages the disc pads long enough to cause any wear or heat. To me, it is more of a nuisance - especially if you forget to unplug from the truck and wake up at 2 am because of the repeated noise from the electro/hydraulic unit in the trailer. Both of the electric/hydraulic units in my old and newer trailer are super sensitive to any electrical pulse, which I assume is good. It at least shows that they are responding to even a low level braking signal extremely fast. Randy, Nancy and Oscar "The Great White" - 2004 Volvo VNL670, D12, 10-speed, converted to single axle pulling a Keystone Cambridge 5th wheel, 40', 4 slides and about 19,000# with empty tanks. ARS - WB4BZX, Electrical Engineer, Master Electrician, D.Ed., Professor Emeritus - Happily Retired! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noteven Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 ABS air brakes on a heavy rv type trailer and it’s hdt would be drive like a maniac downhill sweetnesses... Anyone know what the current mandated stopping distance is for commercial 5 axle 80,000lbs tractor & semi trailer? Anyone know what the mandated stopping distance is for modified hdt “motorhome” and big 5 th wheel “rv” trailer? "Are we there yet?" asked no motorcycle rider, ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl&Rita Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 11 minutes ago, noteven said: ABS air brakes on a heavy rv type trailer and it’s hdt would be drive like a maniac downhill sweetnesses... Anyone know what the current mandated stopping distance is for commercial 5 axle 80,000lbs tractor & semi trailer? Anyone know what the mandated stopping distance is for modified hdt “motorhome” and big 5 th wheel “rv” trailer? 1/2" less than the distance to the crash scene. More space, less stopping distance is better. I have been wrong before, I'll probably be wrong again. 2000 Kenworth T 2000 w/N-14 and 10 speed Gen1 Autoshift, deck built by Star Fabrication 2006 smart fourtwo cdi cabriolet 2007 32.5' Fleetwood QuantumPlease e-mail us here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlennWest Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 3 hours ago, RandyA said: Carl - plug the camper into the truck and wait a few minutes while you sit close to the trailer electric/hydraulic controller. No need to turn on the truck ignition. If the MaxBrake does indeed send a pulse designed to verify a connected and working electro/hydraulic controller you will hear the electro/hydraulic controller motor quickly turn on and then off. Incidentally, the electro/hydraulic controller uses a motor with a screw to push in on the master cylinder. Same with my "old" HydroStar and with the new Dexter dual master cylinder. I discovered this quirk during the night when I kept hearing the clapping sound. When I discovered the source I started disconnecting the truck from the trailer at night. I can't say that this is harmful or engages the disc pads long enough to cause any wear or heat. To me, it is more of a nuisance - especially if you forget to unplug from the truck and wake up at 2 am because of the repeated noise from the electro/hydraulic unit in the trailer. Both of the electric/hydraulic units in my old and newer trailer are super sensitive to any electrical pulse, which I assume is good. It at least shows that they are responding to even a low level braking signal extremely fast. Not being critical but after reading all this I getting a headache. Glad I have Bludot. 2003 Teton Grand Freedom towed with 2006 Freightliner Century 120 across the beautiful USA welding pipe.https://photos.app.goo.gl/O32ZjgzSzgK7LAyt1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big5er Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 Carl, in the under-storage, non entry door side.....open the sliding door hiding the water distribution do-hickey. Just past that manifold is the water filter(?) and just past that, mounted on a piece of plywood is a silver box looking thing that says "Hydramaster" or something similar...it also has a black cap on top. That is the "master-cylinder" for your brakes. Never hurts to check the fluid every once in a while. If you do not have the owners manual for yours, verify the name and I will send you copies on my owners manual. The one in my '18 looks about like the one in my '07. I'm betting they are...maybe I should just start digging out that manual. The water pump and the (damn, I never get this right) inverter/converter (which ever way the thing does its verting) is mounted right there on that same plywood. They are conveniently located so if the water pump goes out (a cheap and easy replacement) it can easily spray the "verter" with water causing it to fail. The "verter" is also a simple replacement but it certainly isn't cheap. The resulting spray of water, if unnoticed for any length of time will present itself as a waterfall sort of thing.......once the insulation gets saturated. If your luck is like mine, it will also happen on Christmas day. At least I do have access to a store full of new ones on Christmas, but it is NOT how I wanted to spend my holiday. MY PEOPLE SKILLS ARE JUST FINE.~It's my tolerance to idiots that needs work.~ 2005 Volvo 780 VED12 465hp / Freedomline transmission singled mid position / Bed by Larry Herrin2018 customed Mobile Suites 40KSSB3 2014 smart Fortwo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuiteSuccess Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 10 minutes ago, Big5er said: Carl, in the under-storage, non door side.....open the sliding door hiding the water distribution do-hickey. Just past that manifold is the water filter(?) and just past that, mounted on a piece of plywood is a silver box looking thing that says "Hydramaster" or something similar...it also has a black cap on top. That is the "master-cylinder" for your brakes. Never hurts to check the fluid every once in a while. If you do not have the owners manual for yours, verify the name and I will send you copies on my owners manual. The one in my '18 looks about like the one in my '07. I'm betting they are...maybe I should just start digging out that manual. Thanks Phil. I’ll look. Haven’t gone through all my paperwork yet but probably have a manual. RVengineering ain’t it great. 2006 Volvo 780 "Hoss" Volvo D12, 465hp, 1650 ft/lbs tq., ultrashift Bed Build by "JW Morgan's Custom Welding" 2017 DRV 39DBRS3 2013 Smart Passion Coupe "Itty Bitty" "Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlennWest Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 Phil, converter. Inverter costly. 2003 Teton Grand Freedom towed with 2006 Freightliner Century 120 across the beautiful USA welding pipe.https://photos.app.goo.gl/O32ZjgzSzgK7LAyt1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alie&Jim's Carrilite Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 Carl, Phil is right on this. The RV brake system is where Phil said, and the Vacuum, Converter-Charger, and Surge Guard power monitor is there as well. It's a crowded area.... Alie & Jim + 8 paws 2017 DRV Memphis BART- 1998 Volvo 610 Lil'ole 6cyl Cummins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuiteSuccess Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 Thanks for the help. Plugged in as Randy suggested, no pulsing with MaxBrake as he had with BrakeSmart. Hit the brakes and heard converter activate. To get thread back on track for OP, if you think you’re only going to be pulling one trailer then Hayes, DirectLink, Maxbrake (if you can find one) , or BluDot should fit the bill. Inertial like Prodigy might work okay but may not be the best choice. If you might be pulling trailers other than your own occasionally then BluDot alone won’t be the best choice. So might need other type in addition, plumbed in but not necessarily wired to seven way although probably could be since BluDot should be independent of trailer plug. 2006 Volvo 780 "Hoss" Volvo D12, 465hp, 1650 ft/lbs tq., ultrashift Bed Build by "JW Morgan's Custom Welding" 2017 DRV 39DBRS3 2013 Smart Passion Coupe "Itty Bitty" "Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlennWest Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 Well we have Bludot but I also still have the Hayes hooked up so just install fuse and good to go if I need to tow another trailer. 2003 Teton Grand Freedom towed with 2006 Freightliner Century 120 across the beautiful USA welding pipe.https://photos.app.goo.gl/O32ZjgzSzgK7LAyt1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickeieio Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 3 hours ago, SuiteSuccess said: If you might be pulling trailers other than your own occasionally then BluDot alone won’t be the best choice. I struggled with that, and went with BluDot anyway. I have other trucks available to me, so that helps. My logic is that I'm more likely to need a different truck to get the trailer somewhere, than to need to hook to another trailer with my truck. As is, any over the road truck can get my trailer where I need it. They are far more plentiful, for hire, than a smaller truck capable of handling our trailer safely. Every things a compromise........... KW T-680, POPEMOBILE Newmar X-Aire, VATICAN Lots of old motorcycles, Moto Guzzi Griso and Spyder F3 currently in the front row Young enough to play in the dirt as a retired farmer. contact me at rickeieio1@comcast.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuiteSuccess Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 Glenn, Rick, That’s why doing what we’re doing takes some pondering 🤔 sometimes. 2006 Volvo 780 "Hoss" Volvo D12, 465hp, 1650 ft/lbs tq., ultrashift Bed Build by "JW Morgan's Custom Welding" 2017 DRV 39DBRS3 2013 Smart Passion Coupe "Itty Bitty" "Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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