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Are you in control of your personal safety?


IRDEW

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We recently spent a few days in an average RV park not a lot of people there. I have Verizon the wife has Att and there was no cell service on either. The campgrounds office was across the highway at least 300 yards away and I assume they had a land line. The nearest town almost 25 miles away. Beautiful afternoon I was sitting in a lawn chair outside my RV, as we had arrived just a few hours earlier.

Then all hell breaks loose, a shouting match erupts between a man and woman at a small camping cabin. She was on the porch in her underware and I could not see him, just hear him shouting 40 yards from me. Then he steps into view, pumps a shell into a shot gun and points at her then takes a step to the side to get a clear shot at her as she was moving away. At that moment I thought she was dead. He put the gun down and walked away out of my sight. These appeared to be long time residents, maybe even employees. A campground employee ran up while someone else drove to the office and returned with the manager who hauled away the offender. No police arrived. What if he had shot her then turned to see the whole campground watching?

This all took maybe a minute from start to what could have been a very bad ending. Everyone in the park saw this. There were four children alone in an rv between myself and the altercation. We must always be prepared to take care of ourselves and maybe others. You may not be able to summon help and by the time they arrive it would be way too late.

We have all been there, average campground, away from any city's and no cell service. Have a plan to protect you and yours.

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Have a plan to protect you and yours.

Interesting thought. Do you also have such a plan when living in a city or stick & brick community? You didn't share with us what action you took or were taking when you observed this activity. Did you get out your own gun to be ready to defend?

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Kirk, what happened to that lady happened really quick I could not see him and even she seemed surprised by the shot gun. I was not armed relaxing in my chair and if I was could not have helped her it was too quick. It was that moment when he moved to the side to get a better shot that I excepted a shot and then just as quickly it defused. I was armed after the fact. This was just a short argument between a couple that could have been tragic.

I didn't want this post to be about firearms or the campground. Just a moment to think about today while we sit in our lawn chairs. What if?

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Always something to think about these days...you just never know. As a teacher we now have to go through "scenario" training in case a bad guy wants to do the us or the students harm...stuff we would have never thought of 20 years ago...times are definitely changing and you better have some type of plan of defense or escape in place...you just never know.

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I question if it worse. We live in a time where all events bad is there for our knowledge. That is the downside of the information age.

 

I agree. The sky is not falling as some want us to believe. As always, be aware of your surroundings and do what you have to do when the need arises. Don't let the scumbags of any society keep you from enjoying life. :)

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No doubt that there is a definite information overload today and most of it is over hyped isolated incidents. I couldn't agree more that you should never allow the criminal elements of our society to infringe on your plans or happiness BUT to not have a plan in place and not be vigilant of your surroundings is inviting trouble in with open arms...as far as our society not getting worse, well, I will have to respectfully disagree on that one!!!

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Check park reviews when looking at places you don't know and see if anything like this is mentioned. Also the reverse leave a park review telling of the incident and that they were long time residents, help the next camper avoid being in your situation. If the situation gets resolved the park owner can post a follow-up to your review.

 

In that situation I'd not have been able to do anything useful either but you can bet your bottom dollar I'd be on my way out of that park as soon as the danger of flying bullets passed. Refund or no refund hospitals suck and coffins are worse.

 

The four kids left alone might be worth a call to that state's version of Child Protective Services to see if there is anything they can do to safeguard the children.

 

Driving to where there is cell service and reporting the incident to the local sheriff might also be a good thing, there are a lot of options for dealing with domestic violence that might prevent a much worse outcome next time.

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Not to be forgotten but most states now allow open carry of firearms. You didn't mention what state this happened but, for example New York and California are two that don't allow you to openly carry a weapon. I'm not sure of what kind of plan you could have. Mine would be to move to another campground where there was cell service, better security. Of course that's just me.

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Most of the people that are around me all of the time know that I carry 24/7. The bad guys never give advance notice when they are coming or what they are going to do. Since I started carrying in 1974, I have never has to pull a firearm to use in self defense but I am prepared to do so if the need arises. Situation awareness and avoiding certain areas are one of the ways I stay out of trouble.

 

In this case, I would have been ready to defend my family and others if he had started shooting. The problem with the scenario is that you don't necessarily know who the bad person is and who is the good guy. You never can tell, she might have been threatening him and he was trying to defend himself. Until I know what the situation is or until he points the firearm at someone I know is not a part of it, I will mind my own business and let the police sort it out. Get your loved ones behind cover (and yourself) and be ready to defend them.

 

Prime example, I was talking to the sheriff last night and he related the first time he pulled his firearm out of the holster and actually pulled the trigger right after he started as a rookie. The gun went click after the other guy had pulled a pistol out of a shoulder holster. Only problem was, the guy had arthritis so bad his fingers were bent and he accidently pulled the pistol back out of the holster when he was trying to put it IN the holster. He was the one that called for the police and was needing the help after being assaulted. He said he will never forget that click or the fact that he would had killed an innocent man that day.

 

By the way, the cause of the failure to fire? Newbie officer cleaning the gun with WD-40 which penetrated around the primer and ruined it. Not a single round in his gun would fire. Hard lesson learned but at least everything worked out OK in the end.

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For the most part, I would agree with the majority of the above. I don't know that I would include the incident in an online review. Management has no control of every action of those occupying their park and doesn't necessarily reflect badly on management or park services. I WOULD report it to the authorities as a witness.. as the manager should and might have. I don't see how tarnishing their reputation and potential future income is warranted for an isolated incident.

 

One thing people may tend to forget is the power of an authoritative voice and "presence". For whatever reason.. it seems most folks first reaction to a potentially dangerous situation is to freeze, watch, and remain silent. Be it a charging dog or some j***w** with a shotty. Even if your firearm is not within reach.. simply yelling "DROP IT! I'LL FIRE!" with your hands clasped in front of you in a weapons hold (sans weapon) as you move to advance will give the typical offender a moment of pause or confusion. Possibly enough for their would be victim to escape. The possibility of an imminent threat to their own lives has a real ice water over the head affect on most.. even if momentarily. At the very least it has the potential to "side track" their current train of thought.

 

I would be careful with children's services. There weren't a lot of details. How long were they left unattended? Parent/s making a potty run? Rushing a child to the emergency room? Any of the children over the age of 12 that can legally watch after younger siblings for a limited amount of time? My feeling.. be attentive, but don't jump to conclusions. Some things you can never take back once the authorities are involved.

 

I DO believe it's good to always have a plan. Even if that is simply asking yourself, "what would I do in this situation?" and making a firm decision in your mind. If that situation ever arises, you'll be more predisposed to take the course you've already decided on rather than trying to think it through in the moment.

 

JMO

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Most of the people that are around me all of the time know that I carry 24/7.

 

I think that's important. If you carry... carry ALWAYS! It's not a part time hobby just for kicks. The one time you might really need it will be just about guaranteed to be one of the few times you're without. I have nothing against those that choose not to... but if you do... be responsible. Carry full-time. ;)

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Working folks can't carry full-time. Unless your job requires it.

 

Not to derail the OP's topic, but that isn't necessarily true. In fact.. nearly half of the states in the U.S. have "bring your gun to work" laws that prohibit employers from restricting employees from carrying or storing a firearm in their vehicle. For states that do not have BYGTW laws, employers may restrict carrying as a company policy (possibly leading to probation or dismissal), but it is not enforceable by any federal or state law. Most states require that an employers premises be clearly marked with "no weapon zone" signage (if there is no written employee policy). If not... you are under no obligation to reveal that you even have a concealed weapons permit.. let alone currently armed.

 

Of course.. all that being said.. that's a real generalization. There may be other applicable State, City, or Federal laws that may apply. Ie., never allowed to carry in a school zone, federal or state building.. etc.

 

There may be some State/City laws that DO prohibit carrying unless it is specifically required by an employer.. I dunno.. but in general terms across the U.S. there are not.

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It may be against the rules to carry in many states and buildings, but unless there is a metal detector how do you know that I'm armed? I would much rather face a judge to defend my carrying than be a victim.

Airports, court houses, federal buildings and some state buildings have detectors, but when was the last time you saw one at a mall, Wal Mart, Applebee's, etc?

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Glen,

 

At our office, we encourage people to carry. Everyone but one takes advantage of that. We shoot at the range with our pistols together and the company furnishes the ammo.

 

I don't like admitting it but I carry into places where it is not legal to do so. My safety and that of my family comes first.

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unless there is a metal detector how do you know that I'm armed? I would much rather face a judge to defend my carrying than be a victim.

I carry into places where it is not legal to do so. My safety and that of my family comes first.

 

I think that's a pretty universal unwritten "don't ask don't tell" policy that most that carry out of principal and a right rather than as a fashion statement support. ;) Myself included.

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Let's see. Lady in her underwear standing on porch screaming. Man pumps shell into shotgun and maneuvers for shot. Who's the aggressor? Would take me about five seconds to figure out with whom I would be most concerned Now the hard question, if you had a weapon would you use it? If you are not prepared to go the extra step, don't carry. You are empowered in most states to use deadly force to protect innocents other than yourself or family. Now the harder question, did you make the right choice? Anyone with a CCW permit knows you don't fire your weapon to wound. Can you live with the consequences? Maybe you're wrong and you could go to prison for life, and lose everything you've worked for. Those are the ultimate responsibilities and decisions you had better have thought out prior to an incident occurring. Big cities have the known reputation for bystanders allowing heinous crimes because "they just don't want the consequences by getting involved." Moral to my rant, I am permitted to carry, I won't publicly say if I do or don't, but I have thought long and hard about the above and what I would do and I'm comfortable with my decisions. So the original post as he said is not whether you should have a weapon or not but making decisions prior to an incident about unsafe situations and having pre planned actions so you don't have to waste time thinking about it when situations arise. I have an ex secret service friend who was in the tactical division and he said they were trained to have one set of actions that would apply to multiple situations and it mostly involved moving to places of safety.

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Being in a campground can Be no different than your stick & brick home. My sister woke one morning to find swat in her yard and her road closed down. All in a rural area and due to an incident with a long time neighbor who just happened to have a "leave of his senses".

As to this incident Once I realized that someone had left for help I would have gone inside, locked my door and stayed out of the situation. Otherwise I may have tried to go for help myself.

Trying to get involved with an active or potential active shooter that did not involve me or my personal property could end up violating a state law or with me dead or injured.

But that's my opinion

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It seems to me that given the topic title, the thread will have to get into both campgrounds and guns, but maybe that's just me.

 

If you have been through a concealed carry class, you know the typical class is 8 hours. 15 minutes on safety and 15 minutes on the range demonstrating proficiency, (or lack thereof). The remaining 7.5 hours are spent hammering in the fact that if you shoot someone, your life will never be the same. You:

WILL go to jail! At least while they sort all this out.

will have to defend what you did because the police will view you as an easy conviction and do everything they can to get you convicted of something. Ditto DA.

will have to get a full time attorney, who will earn a living defending you.

will be sued by the person you shot, if they live and by all of their relatives, friends, neighbors and acquaintances if they don't.

will be in court defending yourself at least monthly and frequently weekly FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE!

will find all of your insurances cancelled

will spend most of your time just wishing you had let the perp kill you instead of going through all this.

 

When you are confronted with the situation where you or yours will be hurt unless you shoot someone, and consider what will happen to you if you do - the choice is so difficult a sane person will likely dither long enough that the situation will have passed.

It is a very difficult problem and the answer is unclear.

 

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There are a lot of good reasons that caused me to choose to live full time in an RV. One of the most significant is that of situational awareness. My S&B was completely safe and secure, I was happy there for many years. With a change of city administration and the police department, within a year it became very unsafe. Things change.

 

Now I have wheels. I like it here = Stay. I don't like it here = Leave. I can easily pick the situation in which I wish to stay. In that respect, perhaps RVing is an alternative to guns?

 

I am convinced that hazard recognition and situational awareness are the keys to staying out of trouble and enjoying life.

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It may be against the rules to carry in many states and buildings, but unless there is a metal detector how do you know that I'm armed? I would much rather face a judge to defend my carrying than be a victim.

Airports, court houses, federal buildings and some state buildings have detectors, but when was the last time you saw one at a mall, Wal Mart, Applebee's, etc?

 

I don't wish to press this issue but to answer your question about detectors but that has been an issue at a Wal-Mart. In August of 2014 in Beavercreek, OH a customer was carrying a a toy rifle from the shelf in the toy dept. And was on the phone speaking to his mother. Couple saw this and overreacted, they called the police, they arrived. He told them it was not real, they shot him and while was on the floor and then told him to put it down. He later died at a local hospital. No plan could have saved him.
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