At what temp does winter in a camper van become uncomfortable?

[WinAZ]

I know, everybody’s different, but I’m wondering what outside temperatures start to make it uncomfortably cold in a van or small RV.

For example, at what outside temp does it become too cold to sit around typing on a laptop in an unheated vehicle? And at what temp does it become too cold to sleep comfortably and get out of bed in the morning?

How well do propane or other types of heaters work? How often does the fuel typically need to be refilled? Referring to SW United States in winter....

I’ve found that at around 35 degrees, tent camping becomes uncomfortable. Wondering about being in a van or class B.

[sandsys]

This depends on so many things. What is the humidity level? How many layers of clothes do you wear? What is your sleeping bag rated for? How good is your own circulation? What, if any, insulation does the van have? Where are you--New Mexico is cold. Southern Arizona is not too bad in the desert but there are mountains in Arizona, too. And so on.

If you are in the desert in southern Arizona you will probably by OK. Nighttime temps are often in the 40s there but it warms up a lot during the day. Southern means south of I-10.  if WinAZ means Winslow, don't try it. Along I-40 is too cold for most of us.

Linda Sand

[Kirk W]

That is a very subjective thing and the answer varies widely. Different RVs have very different amounts of insulation, even in van conversions. The size of the RV also plays a major part because we add heat to our surroundings by cooking and such as well as the effects of our own body heat. I assume that you want to know the temperatures outside that allow you to be comfortable inside? The age of the person plays a significant role as most of us become more subject to temperature variations as we age. How much clothing you plan to wear also plays a major roll as you might be dressed in thermal underwear and long sleeved wool shirts or you could be in shorts and tee-shirt. Most people prefer an indoor temperature around 70°F but if dressed for cold weather you could probably be comfortable with temperatures in the 50°F range. 

10 hours ago, WinAZ said:

How well do propane or other types of heaters work? How often does the fuel typically need to be refilled?

That is another very subjective question. The typical RV propane furnace will keep a well insulated RV comfortable with temperatures near 0° at night but a poorly insulated one will not. Most of them are sized to the RV that they are in but cheaper RVs will always have a smaller furnace and so have more difficulty keeping it warm. Wind also plays a major roll in ability to keep an RV warm. Some RVs have a catalytic propane heater and while those are more efficient than the more typical ones with blowers, they also add humidity to the interior and they don't spread the heat as well. They are more efficient in the use of propane. The frequency of needing to fill the propane tank depends upon the tank size and the amount used. If not connected to electricity then you will also use propane for heating water, cooking, and operation of the refrigerator. Small RVs also have small propane tanks. The typical RV furnace will use about 1/3 gallon per hour of run time so the temperature the thermostat is set for and the outside temperatures, as well as wind conditions will make a tremendous difference in the amount of propane used.

10 hours ago, WinAZ said:

I’ve found that at around 35 degrees, tent camping becomes uncomfortable.

That too depends upon who is camping and how they are dressed. I used to hunt elk and deer in the mountains of CO and WY for a week at a time, living out of a tent, usually with night temperatures near or below 0°F and sometimes daytime too. But we were equipped for it and we also dressed for it. 

[WinAZ]

10 hours ago, sandsys said:

This depends on so many things. What is the humidity level? How many layers of clothes do you wear? What is your sleeping bag rated for? How good is your own circulation? What, if any, insulation does the van have? Where are you--New Mexico is cold. Southern Arizona is not too bad in the desert but there are mountains in Arizona, too. And so on.

If you are in the desert in southern Arizona you will probably by OK. Nighttime temps are often in the 40s there but it warms up a lot during the day. Southern means south of I-10.  if WinAZ means Winslow, don't try it. Along I-40 is too cold for most of us.

Linda Sand

Thanks for the reply, Linda.

It would be southern NM or AZ, not in the mountains. Low humidity. Hoping to keep the interior around 55-60 degrees.

I don't have the van yet, but yes, I am looking for one with insulation.

I'm fine with low temps for outdoor sports and snow camping. But what a person can tolerate for a few days is different from what a person can tolerate for a month or two -- while trying to do some work on a laptop during the day, which means no gloves.

[WinAZ]

1 hour ago, Kirk W said:

That is a very subjective thing and the answer varies widely. Different RVs have very different amounts of insulation, even in van conversions. The size of the RV also plays a major part because we add heat to our surroundings by cooking and such as well as the effects of our own body heat. I assume that you want to know the temperatures outside that allow you to be comfortable inside? The age of the person plays a significant role as most of us become more subject to temperature variations as we age. How much clothing you plan to wear also plays a major roll as you might be dressed in thermal underwear and long sleeved wool shirts or you could be in shorts and tee-shirt. Most people prefer an indoor temperature around 70°F but if dressed for cold weather you could probably be comfortable with temperatures in the 50°F range. 

That is another very subjective question. The typical RV propane furnace will keep a well insulated RV comfortable with temperatures near 0° at night but a poorly insulated one will not. Most of them are sized to the RV that they are in but cheaper RVs will always have a smaller furnace and so have more difficulty keeping it warm. Wind also plays a major roll in ability to keep an RV warm. Some RVs have a catalytic propane heater and while those are more efficient than the more typical ones with blowers, they also add humidity to the interior and they don't spread the heat as well. They are more efficient in the use of propane. The frequency of needing to fill the propane tank depends upon the tank size and the amount used. If not connected to electricity then you will also use propane for heating water, cooking, and operation of the refrigerator. Small RVs also have small propane tanks. The typical RV furnace will use about 1/3 gallon per hour of run time so the temperature the thermostat is set for and the outside temperatures, as well as wind conditions will make a tremendous difference in the amount of propane used.

That too depends upon who is camping and how they are dressed. I used to hunt elk and deer in the mountains of CO and WY for a week at a time, living out of a tent, usually with night temperatures near or below 0°F and sometimes daytime too. But we were equipped for it and we also dressed for it. 

Thanks for the thoughts, Kirk.

“I assume that you want to know the temperatures outside that allow you to be comfortable inside?” — yes, that is correct. I certainly expect to wear warm clothing in the winter. Right now, I wear a few layers at home and mostly avoid using a heater even in winter. Probably stays around 58-60 indoors.

“The typical RV propane furnace will keep a well insulated RV comfortable with temperatures near 0° at night but a poorly insulated one will not.” — so I assume a smallish heater will keep an insulated van warm when outside temps are as low as 20… Envisioning BLM land so no electricity.

“The typical RV furnace will use about 1/3 gallon per hour of run time” — very helpful. Thanks.

“I used to hunt elk and deer in the mountains of CO and WY for a week at a time, living out of a tent, usually with night temperatures near or below 0°F and sometimes daytime too. But we were equipped for it and we also dressed for it.” — I too have camped in the mountains in winter, but doing that for a few days is different from doing it for a month or two.

[2gypsies]

2 hours ago, WinAZ said:

It would be southern NM or AZ, not in the mountains. Low humidity. Hoping to keep the interior around 55-60 degrees.

 

I'd highly recommend southern AZ over NM.   NM can get very cold all winter.

AZ is cold right now during the days but this is unusual for days on end.  Climate change???  Usually the sun warms temperatures nicely during the day.  All deserts will be cold at night.

The warmest places in winter would be the greater Phoenix area west to Quartzsite down to Yuma and west into California.  Tucson is nice but a tad cooler than Phoenix.

[Kirk W]

3 hours ago, WinAZ said:

so I assume a smallish heater will keep an insulated van warm when outside temps are as low as 20… Envisioning BLM land so no electricity.

How will you connect that "smallish heater" if you do not have electricity? It may be possible to find a 12V heater but then you have problems keeping the coach batteries charged. Do you plan to run the chassis engine to charge the batteries? You could add solar but that won't be inexpensive, especially to have enough to use 12V power to heat the RV. 

3 hours ago, WinAZ said:

I too have camped in the mountains in winter, but doing that for a few days is different from doing it for a month or two.

Exactly my point and you need to have the equipment to do that and some of it would help with what you want. If you sleep in a good quality sleeping bag it will mean that you can then sleep in comfort at much lower temperatures but it won't help when you get up in the mornings. The trick there is to keep the clothing for the next morning between the sleeping bag and mattress so that it will be warm when you wake up. Believe me that having lived for 21 years in CO & WY and most of that doing both tenting and RVing, I have a pretty good understanding of the lifestyle. We lived for 12 continuous years in an RV as well so I have a fairly good grasp of what that life requires. Since you are thinking of BLM sites, what will you do about getting rid of your waste water, acquiring drinking water, and such? If you go to one of the BLM areas with long term camping (LTVA) there is a fee but you will also have a source for waste and trash disposal as well as water access but you won't be alone as there are thousands of other RVs on them for the main months of winter. 

Another question is, what is the budget that you have in mind? If you want a van that has things like a fresh water tank, a water heater, shower, flush toilet and other amenities, those do not come cheap so if you have not done so you should at least look at some of the advertisements for them to understand what is available at what cost.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Kirk W

[Jaydrvr]

I have "dry camped" in my truck while working for many years when I lived and worked in the cold, frozen tundra of the Midwest. Many drivers just idled their engines for warmth, but I rarely did that. I was completely comfortable sleeping in temps as low as zero or beyond by using a bunk warmer or electric blanket. It was a bit brisk when one had to get up, though. Jay

Edited December 22, 2022 by Jaydrvr

[sandsys]

5 hours ago, WinAZ said:

Thanks for the reply, Linda.

It would be southern NM or AZ, not in the mountains. Low humidity. Hoping to keep the interior around 55-60 degrees.

I don't have the van yet, but yes, I am looking for one with insulation.

I'm fine with low temps for outdoor sports and snow camping. But what a person can tolerate for a few days is different from what a person can tolerate for a month or two -- while trying to do some work on a laptop during the day, which means no gloves.

Southern NM is much colder than southern AZ.

Fingerless gloves might help.

Linda

[sandsys]

2 hours ago, Kirk W said:

Since you are thinking of BLM sites, what will you do about getting rid of your waste water, acquiring drinking water, and such? If you go to one of the BLM areas with long term camping (LTVA) there is a fee but you will also have a source for waste and trash disposal as well as water access but you won't be alone as there are thousands of other RVs on them for the main months of winter. 

When I was living in my van, I would buy an annual BLM sticker to have access to fresh water and dump. But I would go park further out and just come in to the La Posa South LTVA to dump and fill. The annual pass is about equivalent to 10 weeks parked in an LTVA but is good at several LTVAs in Arizona and California if you like to move around. Midland LTVA north of Blythe in CA is not as popular because it doesn't have the amenities but nothing says you can't park there in between trips to dump and fill. I mostly camped in the free areas because that's where my friends were. When I was getting ready to dump and fill I would give them whatever water they needed from what I had left. You might want to check out cheaprvliving.com and homesonwheelsalliance.org to learn what other van dwellers are doing.

Linda

[WinAZ]

Thanks for the input, everyone!

Reading now...

[JimK]

Comfort has been discussed.  A big issue is use of propane and electricity to run the furnace.  My RV furnace pulls about 7 amps.  That can add up significantly if the furnace runs many hours a day.  Propane consumption is another issue.  My typical propane use for showers and light use of the furnace will carry me about a month on a single tank.  In really cold weather I could go through a tank in just a few days and still fall short of maintaining a 65-70 temperature.  

My truck camper is really just built for 3 season use.  When daytime temps are barely hitting 40 and it is well below freezing at night, it is time for me to move on to warmers areas.  Another solution would be to have electric hookup and use a small space heater.  

I use my RV as a recreational vehicle.  It is my means of visiting great scenic areas.  I want to be outdoors doing that the vast majority of the time and that is no longer enjoyable when the temps drop too low.  

[Kirk W]

21 hours ago, WinAZ said:

Thanks for the input,

Something that you may want to consider for heat that would not use any electricity and would be very efficient in use of propane would be one of the catalytic heaters such as the Mr. Heater of perhaps one to mount on a small propane bottle as either of these could be stored out of the way when not in use and are very conserving of your propane supply.  There are quite a few choices of heaters that are relatively inexpensive and much more efficient that the typical built-in furnace used in most RVs. 

[JimK]

I use a Mr Heater in my garage.  If it has been on for a while and I enter the garage, I can smell propane.  I also make sure my CO detector is working well.  Catalytic or not I would not put any burner in my RV.  I want outside exhaust of the combustion products, no smell, and definitely no possibility of a malfunction and CO emissions.

Another issue is clearance in front of the heater.  You need quite a bit of space with no combustibles anywhere near the heater.  Another downside is Mr Heater does not circulate the heat.  

There is another possibility.  There are diesel heaters designed for use in semi truck cabs.  They vent to the outside plus it is easier and cheaper to deal with diesel fuel rather than propane.  These units make lots of sense if you already have a RV that uses diesel.

[RV_]

 I agree with Jim k. I have the Olympian test results for CO and they do produce it just less than open flame. I will dig them out. Do some searches on LOw level CO Poisoning. Your need 24 Square inches with a catalytic:

Excerpt:

Air Supply

This heater consumes air from the room in which it is

installed. To assure complete combustion, an adequate

fresh-air supply to the room is necessary.

practice to have at least two openings, one high and one

low. The room must have a total of at least 24 square inches

free-air opening (i.e. an opening of 4" x 6"=24 square inches).

Provide additional ventilation of at least 2 square inches for

every 1,000 BTUs per hour of input for any additional fuel

burning appliances used at the same time. If the room is

tightly sealed or insulated so that natural infiltration is low,

additional ventilation is required (see below"

This straight from the manual on page 6 here: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/955013/Camco-Olympian-Wave3.html?page=6#manual

 

Then on page 9:

"If catalyst pad poisoning is known or suspected, take the

heater out of service and return it to the factory or take it to

a qualified LP Gas technician for service. Do not attempt to

operate the heater with a damaged or poisoned catalyst pad.

Determine the cause of the problem if possible. Olympian

Heaters are designed to give good service for many years

if used under proper conditions. Warranty does not cover

catalyst pad poisoning from any cause as they are beyond

the Company's control and are not a defect in manufacturing

and workmanship.

Over a period of years, even under good operating

conditions, some of the catalyst sites may be rendered

inoperative because trace contaminants almost always are

present in the gas and in the air. If lowered heat output is

noticed, it is possibly time to have the catalyst pad replaced.

Catalyst pad poisoning can cause lowered heat output and

release of unburned or partially burned gas. Operation of

the heater in the event of catalyst poisoning may result in

the dangers of fire, explosion and/or production of carbon

monoxide. Injury, death and/or property damage can result.

The heater should be taken out of service and returned to

the factory or taken to a qualified LP Gas technician to have

the catalyst pad replaced before it is used again."

That from the manual linked above.

[sandsys]

The people I know using propane heaters use them to remove the evening chill then turn them off when they go to bed. They turn them on in the morning just long enough  to take the nighttime chill off. Sleeping with them on is risky. 

Linda

[RV_]

More (Note, I wrote these several years ago and some or many of the links may have changed. You can google the subject as it is all still on line.

  Catalytic heaters use a mat that causes the propane to glow at about 800 degrees, instead of the 1000 degrees plus of an open flame heater.

Both types of unvented heater produce CO, and many other combustion by products in the RV.

Many confuse the ratings of unvented heaters for RV use with the ratings for house use, where there are many more thousands of square feet to disperse and dilute the combustion by products released inside.

They can build up quicker in an RV.

Having said that, unvented heaters can be used safely, if all venting and other operational instructions are followed to the letter.

In addition a CO alarm and Propane alarm should be installed and tested regularly incase the ODS (Oxygen Depletion Sensor) or the heater itself malfunctions.

In addition to water, CO2, CO and other combustion byproducts produced by all heaters that burn any fuel, as opposed to electric heater with no combustion, unvented heaters can produce a lot of CO if they burn inefficiently due to a burner malfunction, rust, or something out of alignment from bumpy roads.

Thus my recommendation to have a CO alarm and Propane alarm just in case.

Never have a propane source bottle inside the rig.  It is best if any unvented heater is connected to your main propane source, tank or cylinders, to prevent propane leakage problems in addition tot he others associated with burning fuels inside unvented.

Now to the big fallacies.

Furnaces vent much of the heat outside and use a lot of the battery power to run the fans. Thus are not 100% efficient.

This is true as far as it goes.  But when the unvented folks say their units are almost 100% efficient, because all the heat goes inside, they usually neglect to mention three things:
 

1.  That to be safe, you have to open vents or windows to replenish the oxygen and vent out the moisture and other pollutants the unvented systems generate.  Sounds suspiciously like the amount the furnaces vent out too, without exposing you to toxic combustion byproducts to begin with right?

2.  That ODS sensors do not sense CO, but are simply thermocouple distance/flame sensors that cut off the fuel if the flame is not right on the thermocouple due to bad combustion from less oxygen.  They never explain that CO production starts to go up as soon as oxygen begins to deplete.

3. That both bring an increased fire hazard INTO THE RIG.  Even a catalytic can ignite a drape if it is lying against it for time.

OK, both Catalytic heaters, and open flame heaters produce CO, even when operating at peak efficiency.  Catalytics at 6 PPM (Parts per Million) and open flame heaters at a range of from 9- 25 PPM.  The EPA maximum exposure rate is 9PPM.  Many times, in cities, the CO rate is higher from the "fresh air!"  Add more inside?

So if you choose to save some bucks using an open flame or a catalytic heater, here are my safety suggestions, followed by source documentation links for my statements.

 Read and follow all the manufacturer's instructions, especially the venting ones. 

     1. If the venting makes it too cold, never reduce the venting or you will be at risk.

2.  Have a good CO detector with LCD readout of CO in PPM in case you get the initial symptoms of CO poisoning.

3. Also have a propane detector to alert you to any leaks while using any propane appliance.
4. Understand and apply the preventative maintenance procedures outlined in the owner's manual for you unvented device.
5. In all cases, never use an unvented heater, especially in a small space like an RV, if you have the capacity to use a vented alternative, as the EPA and the CPSC both state.

OK now for the links for those wishing to go further.

The ODS, and a pic of how it works:

http://www.focalpointfires.plc.uk/ods/

The EPA page –detectors not a substitute. Scroll down to the section on CO detectors.
http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/coftsht.html

ODS Explanation of how it works- scroll down.
http://www.thevictorianfireplace.com/ventfree.htm

Good discussion from Canada on ventless gas heaters and safety
http://hearth.com/what/unvented.html

Where to place a CO detector? This link from First alert, who does not certify their CO detectors for RV use, I know, I bought one that failed. But a good explanation of the weight and rising characteristics of CO. Go here:
http://www.homesafe.com/coalert/detect.htm

If you use an unvented heater read the manuals and thoroughly understand the warnings and operating instructions.

Understanding CO, and understanding which unvented heater type you have, and the unique operating requirements of each unvented heater, is critical to your safety.

Here's an excerpt from the CPSC or Consumer Product Safety commission statistics on CO deaths for one year- 1998. I can find no current estimates, but with the explosion of RV sales and the increasing numbers of fulltimers selecting this lifestyle for both retirement, and mobility for younger contractors, I think it is imperative that we get the word out about the dangers of unvented heaters, especially in the smaller square footage of an RV, when compared to the build up of CO in an average sized house.

Quote:
An average of 18 percent of deaths took place in temporary shelters, such as tents, recreational vehicles, campers, and trailers. In 1998, 26 percent of CO deaths, the highest percentage for the five-year period, took
place in such temporary shelters. LP gas camping heaters were the products most frequently associated with these deaths, followed by charcoal grills.

The complete report is here:
http://www.cpsc.gov/library/co01.pdf

Carbon Monoxide Poisoning Deaths Associated with Camping -- Georgia, March 1999
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4832a1.htm

Much important info. Unfortunately, the victims can't post that they "heard" it was safe, and made a mistake. And, unfortunately, online, in some cases (current company excluded of course), the "long reads" and links tend to be ignored in favor of three line answers. Most people consider an RV just a temporary shelter, and for those who are part timers they are. But winter brings out the auxiliary heating systems for both the part timers that use their RVs for ski trips and winter camping, and even the fulltimers in the South. (Yes, it freezes in a lot of our areas too) Getting the real skinny out to our fellow RVrs, even if it takes a few extra minutes of reading and/or research, if it can save one life, to me, is worth the slight effort.

Safe travels
 

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by RV_

[2gypsies]

We used a propane heater for 16 years.  Never at night... but then, we like a cold room for sleeping.

On a cold, rainy day we would leave it on all day.

We always cracked a couple windows and had CO and propane detectors.

The propane line ran to our main tank.

We absolutely loved the constant warmth of the heater vs a furnace.

[lappir]

Looks like if I want to stay in the upper Midwest, I'm going to have to invest in one of those heaters. Sitting in Cape Girardeau this morning with the outside temperature on my phone reading -6. I was nice and toasty in my bed, but the floor sure was cold when I stepped in it instead of my house shoes getting out of bed. Had a couple felines blocking my usual exit from the bed so missed the shoes. 

My Mini Split for the first time is putting out less than 80 degree temperatures from the vents. I'll find the infrared thermometer in a bit and check the actual temp. I have a remote thermometer in the basement and it's sitting at 12 with multiple electric heaters down there. The second location is showing 78 about 9 feet above a 12 x 16 opening. I have a small fan pushing air from the living area down into the area near the water filters and tank. I'll check for possible frozen filters when the sun comes up. 

I did put a "Heat Lamp" near the intake for the Mini Split and it's hopefully heating the concrete pad and radiating that heat to the air that's passing across the coils. For the first time I haven't heard the unit "Defrost" during my sleep. I'll check the ice level on the coils also when the sun arises. 

I know this post is on keeping warm in a Van, and my rig is certainly not a van per se, but it is a home on wheels. 

 

 

Rod

 

[RV_]

Rod if it is not vented like as the normal furnaces in RVs are please consider a CO detector/alarm in your rig.

 

[lappir]

4 hours ago, RV_ said:

Rod if it is not vented like as the normal furnaces in RVs are please consider a CO detector/alarm in your rig.

 

There is one in the rig. The unit will be placed in the uninsulated and vented basement. There is floor insulation and I'll continue to use a fan to blow air from the living area to the basement. It will most likely only be used when the temps drop into the teens and lower. 

Thanks for your concerns. 

 

Rod

[Ray,IN]

You might consider a diesel fuel cab heater for your basement area: https://www.vanbuilderguide.com/best-diesel-heaters-for-van-life/ instead of an LP heater.

[lappir]

14 hours ago, Ray,IN said:

You might consider a diesel fuel cab heater for your basement area: https://www.vanbuilderguide.com/best-diesel-heaters-for-van-life/ instead of an LP heater.

Thanks for the suggestion. If I had a diesel generator, that  indeed would be the way to go. I have propane for the water heater and as a back up cooking  source so adding a tank for diesel isn't something I'd likely do.  I'm currently very comfortable inside my living area, but my water is frozen for the third time since my home was built. I thought I had it figured out last year when it got to the teens, but the negative degrees recently showed me I still don't have it right. 

It's 8 degrees this morning 16 degrees higher than yesterday. I just remembered my new Hughes Autoformers  device can show me my electrical energy use and will keep a tally. I just reset it and will monitor the use over the next few days. It's supposed to be in the 40 to 60's again by the end of next week so I'll reset it once it gets warm again. Currently leg one is drawing 2400 watts and leg two is about 2300. Guess I need to find something with a 50 watt draw and move it to the other side. 

I guess I've sort of hijacked this for real, so I will create a new post to report the report from the Hughes in a few days. 

Apologies to the OP. 

 

Rod

[Kirk W]

[RV_]

51 minutes ago, Kirk W said:

Can't see the pic Kirk. But it was funny:

Edited December 24, 2022 by RV_