Lippert (no, not axles). Weak frames?

[FlyFishn]

I am (unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) familiar with the Lippert axle/hub/bearing issues. That has been a hot topic in the RV industry. Dexters don't seem to be immune from issues, either. One such article:

https://thecampingadvisor.com/lippert-axles-vs-dexter-axles/

My question/thread here is related to frames instead.

Does anyone have any experience with direct frame issues with Lippert frames?

Has anyone had a Lippert frame need to be repaired? If so - what/where was the repair? What (if anything) special had to be done in order to do the repair (IE - open a wall, floor, remove slides, etc, etc)? Where was it done (IE - dealer or other shop, your own repair)? Warranty or non-warranty?

What I mean by "direct frame issues" are any weakness/cracks/failures unrelated to axle issues. Bending axles, broken springs, etc are a separate issue that can very well lead to frame issues - I would be curious if any frame failures have stemmed from these issues and where on the frame, but my core question is outside of those.

What I am curious about is if there are known weak points/failure points of Lippert frames that aren't caused by/related to other issues - just loading and vibration going down the road.

Another article series that is an interesting read related to mostly manufacturing shortcomings (been around for years now - it has been republished in several places, this is just one, as the original - RV Daily Report - hasn't been in operation for several years now):

https://movingonwithmargo.com/is-the-rv-industry-in-a-death-spiral/

 

[Darryl&Rita]

It's a two pronged problem. The manufacturer spec's too light a frame, and Lippert hires questionable talent. As the biggest single source provider, Lippert is nigh onto impossible to avoid.

[FlyFishn]

1 hour ago, Darryl&Rita said:

As the biggest single source provider, Lippert is nigh onto impossible to avoid.

That's at the root of why I started the thread. If we can't avoid it - what are the "uglys" we should know ahead of time? And can we prevent them in the first place (thinking reinforcement).

Why I am avoiding the "axle" topic is that can be rectified - replace the axles/springs (whether leaf or torsion).

A frame, on the other hand.... How do you "replace a frame" under the rest of the RV? Not sure that is realistic since the RV is built on said frame.

So to prevent the frame/RV's foundation from developing issues, or knowing what to look for ahead of time when looking at used and either fix or cross it off the list - what should we know?

Edited February 4, 2022 by FlyFishn

[TXiceman]

Fellow down the row from us with a fairly new 41' Keystone Alpine 5er.  He has one tire wearing badly (left rear) on the trailer.  He had it checked by the dealer, and it was determined that the axle was mounted wrong with mislocated spring hangers.  Now they are battling Lippert and the dealer to get it fixed before spring.  They live in the RV full time.

Another fellow with a Messa Ridge (again a Lipper frame and full time) got a crack in the corner of the bedroom slide on their first trip out.  They are fighting with the dealer and Lippert.  Telling them it has to go back to the factory, and it will take 2.5 months to get it back.

Such great products.

Ken

[FlyFishn]

@TXiceman Thanks for the info.

1st point on the tire = axle issue = thats in the realm of self-repairing if you're mechanically inclined and you have the parts (either there in the wrong positions or you have to get new/right parts) Though, I agree it shouldn't be an issue with a new unit.

2nd point on the slide - that's not a frame issue. I meant metal frame, bracing, tongue (if TT, or kingpin framing if 5th). Though, the crack is interesting. When you say "corner of slide" - is that metal structure? Or the side wall of the slide (what is built up on said structure)? Fiberglass, wood, sheet metal? A crack means there is stress and something moving or trying to move. The questions there are what and should it move/flex?

[Darryl&Rita]

3 hours ago, FlyFishn said:

That's at the root of why I started the thread. If we can't avoid it - what are the "uglys" we should know ahead of time? And can we prevent them in the first place (thinking reinforcement).

Look at any welds you can see. See boogery looking mess, or stack of dimes bead? Look at the metal thickness of the frame. Most people can't tell the difference between 1/4" thick vs 5/16" thick, but if it looks "sketchy" you'll feel it on the back of your neck. Get the yard guy to pick up a 5th wheel with the forklift, slowly. Watch the flex from when the lift first starts sounding loaded, until the legs lift. Prepare for a surprise. Travel trailers aren't as easy, but they can be blocked (don't count on the front stabilizers) and the weight taken off the tongue jack. Watch for flex, again. Compare frame thickness of older models to new RVs, especially the higher regarded lines. You can learn to tell what looks stronger or weaker.

[FlyFishn]

29 minutes ago, Darryl&Rita said:

Look at any welds you can see. See boogery looking mess, or stack of dimes bead? Look at the metal thickness of the frame. Most people can't tell the difference between 1/4" thick vs 5/16" thick, but if it looks "sketchy" you'll feel it on the back of your neck. Get the yard guy to pick up a 5th wheel with the forklift, slowly. Watch the flex from when the lift first starts sounding loaded, until the legs lift. Prepare for a surprise. Travel trailers aren't as easy, but they can be blocked (don't count on the front stabilizers) and the weight taken off the tongue jack. Watch for flex, again. Compare frame thickness of older models to new RVs, especially the higher regarded lines. You can learn to tell what looks stronger or weaker.

Excellent info. Lots of things I didn't consider, and I'll throw my calipers in with my tape measure tomorrow. We had planned tomorrow for visiting another RV dealer in the state but with the snowstorm the county where they are was in a level 3 snow emergency and everything was closed. I did hear they were going to re-open tomorrow so we're still on track there.

As to welds - I do a bit of welding myself, on my own stuff - as a hobby you could say, but I have had some formal education on the subject in college. That is an interesting subject. Yeah, your analogy of a "stack of dimes" is somewhat of an indicator, however welding methods vary and, so too, do the results. I'll leave that topic with this - not all ugly welds on the surface are scary welds.

You bring up a good point about the flexing. I am not sure how to go about that one when "tire kicking". I don't want to try to get the dealers to do that type of effort to give us that perspective - of the flexing - while out trying to get a feel for all the manufacturers' various qualities. Though, it is a hard point to not check before going down the road further with any particular unit - and at that point I don't want to settle on a unit then do that before closing the deal only to find issues. I don't have a problem with - and have a few times already - crawling underneath parked units to inspect.

Not having any reference for main frame member thicknesses/strengths - measuring I beam flange and webbing thickness (if able, not sure webbing is accessible anywhere) would only give a number. If those you state are based in reality of frame thicknesses - 1/4" and 5/16" - that is a good reference. If those numbers are just "thrown out there" not based in reality of frame thicknesses then a measured frame is only a number to me. I can dig in to that one later, so long as I have numbers from what we look at.

Speaking of thin/weak frames - from a fabrication standpoint - I would venture a guess that the failure points are near welds, whether the welds themselves (not the higher risk) or the base metal around the weld (heat affected zone, higher risk). But that is a wild arse guess - I don't know how the frames are designed and haven't been around them to have any familiarity with issues that have occurred with some - which is the purpose of the thread. Lippert frames are so common they are hard to avoid - so what are the "uglys"?

Somewhat going back to the earlier point made about the slide corner cracking - there was a 5th wheel, I believe it was a Montana, that someone had about 4-5 years ago where the side of the portion above the hitch had cracked open. To repair it they had to fillet open the front of the 5th wheel to gain access to the front frame/5th wheel hitch framing. It seems to me something in that metal had broken or bolts had loosensed up causing things to move that shouldn't have. That type of issue is hard to figure out ahead of time. If there are bolts buried inside of the RV that are inaccessible (without cutting things open that shouldn't have to be cut open) - it is the "wait and see what happens" approach. If you get lucky you don't have to touch it, if you are unlucky you have a broke open side of your RV down the road. Likewise - welded joints in the same inaccessible areas can't be inspected easily.
 

[Darryl&Rita]

The most common failures are at the welds. Incomplete penetration leads to metal flex, flex leads to work hardening, which leads to failure. Second most common is too thin metal being used, leading to flex... The end result is torn metal, usually in a hidden area, that needs to be exhumed to repair. Done properly, it's invisible.

[duraduk]

Northwood and Outdoor Recreation do not use Lippert frames.  They build their own.  I've read of a few wheel alignment issues but I'm not aware of actual frame problems.  They are heavier built that Lippert's.

[Kirk W]

Is Lippert the only company that builds frames for the RV trailer industry? I can't seem to find much on that by doing a search. Nor can I find anything to say who builds their own frames.

[lappir]

There was a post about fixing a frame at an HDT rally a while back. I will try and search for it, but maybe the author might chime in before I get the chance to spend the time. 

 

Rod

[travelinbob]

I'd like to put in my 2 cents worth if it's even worth the 2 cents.

Lippert builds frames to the specs provided from the manufactures. The mfg is what designs the weak cheaper frames. They prefer to put their $$$ on the "glitz" instead of the invisible, like the frame.

One should also be worried about the mfg putting the cheapest tires they can find on their rigs. What are they thinking. The tire is the first most important part of your rig. Second, of course is the frame.

My RVing days are over now and it just scares the hell out of me to watch the travel trailers and 5'ers passing me at 75 or 85+ MPH with tires rated with a max speed of 65. 

[ARGO]

Reading these posts makes me glad my frame is 16" solid steel

[FlyFishn]

RE: weld subject/discussion:

Here are some pictures from yesterday - Grand Design, Lippert Frame. Manufacturer date somewhere around the last 1/4 of '21, no idea on the frame - not sure if they are mass produced and just picked at GD from a stack that was made a year prior for example?

Anywho - the frames are inaccessible - they are sealed underbellys. So I will have to figure that one out down the road as to how to inspect a frame before purchase, but we're still in the "learning all we can about RV's" phase before we find the direction we want to pursue.

That having been said, the following assembly is the framing for the leveling jacks. Is it structural? Yes and no.

It is "Yes" because it does carry weight at times - when the leveling jacks are in use and the RV is parked.

It is "No" because these frame members have no relation to the integrity of the "trailer frame" - as would be needed going down the road, subject to the additional stresses, vibrations, etc of the RV going down the road.

I'll do these in separate posts - 3 total - as the max file size is 100kb.

 

[FlyFishn]

2 of 3

This is the corner of said leveling jack framing that I detailed. You can see a bit of surface rust coming under the reinforcement plate welded in the corner - likely because the coating method they used to coat the frame post-assembly/welding didn't adequately seep in under the reinforcement plate. That is a bigger concern than the welds to me.

[FlyFishn]

3 of 3:

And a close up of the weld on the right. That is an ugly weld. Through the paint coating you can see obvious porosity and lack of uniformity with the travel speed etc. If this were on the trailer frame that would be a no-go for me.

Since this is on a component that is not related to the integrity of the trailer frame this in and of itself does not concern me. Am I happy with what I see with the weld? Absolutely not. Am I OK with it enough that I would still buy this unit if it were the one I was looking to buy? Yes, with one major condition:

That condition being that the frame itself (those members structurally required for the integrity of the trailer going down the road) is welded sufficiently.

The leveling jack frames not being part of that trailer-going-down-the-road integrity is a good place for inexperienced welders to gain experience. So, if that is how Lippert operates - I am really glad they do that because it is what apprentice welders need. The only way to learn skilled trades is to do them, and sadly in todays' world we have very few outlets for young people to learn those trades outside of the workforce. There are few companies that can afford to give welders "burn time" on scraps. They need to find a way to combine production with giving "burn time" to those that need to gain experience so that "gaining experience" is profitable, as opposed to being an expense.

Now, if those inexperienced welders were put on the frame welding - then I would have a problem with it. And the only way to know for sure is to open up the underbellys and inspect the frame welding. Thats going to be a tough one.

[Darryl&Rita]

I will guarantee you that every weld on that frame looks the same. This is what I spoke of earlier. Frankly, the paint/rust doesn't bother me as much as poor weld quality. I can add rust converter and paint, at my leisure, but welding is a little more involved. 

[FlyFishn]

Another thought - I didn't even think about this until looking back over the pictures.

The spring hangers might be questionable also - thickness and attachment to the frame. Again, since I can't see the frame up under all the enclosures there is no way to inspect. But it is at least another area of concern that begs to be looked over.

On the flip side of the coin, just as the leveling jack framing is suspicious, those components can be easily fixed should they develop issues down the road or they can be reinforced ahead of time to prevent issues.

In the theme of the thread - questioning known failure points - if spring hangers, specifically here in this post, haven't been known to fail then the statistics there would point to them being adequate = not worth my time/effort to do anything about, per se.

The other side of this coin is the axle capacity.

If the axles were right at or below the GVWR - then I would question the whole set up - axles, springs, spring hangers/frame attachment. In this specific case - the combined axles are over the GVWR = I don't think they would be worth upgrading. That would have to be given some extra thought down the road as every RV/trailer is different.

Edited February 6, 2022 by FlyFishn

[FlyFishn]

9 minutes ago, Darryl&Rita said:

I will guarantee you that every weld on that frame looks the same. This is what I spoke of earlier. Frankly, the paint/rust doesn't bother me as much as poor weld quality. I can add rust converter and paint, at my leisure, but welding is a little more involved. 

As to the rust not bothering you as much as the weld - in this specific case I don't agree, just me though.

You state that every weld on the frame is going to be of the same questionable quality - I also disagree with that statement. Though I didn't get pictures of every weld I saw, those up front on the V going to the hitch were good from what I could tell.

Therein lies the importance of inspecting - and not being able to see the welds inside the enclosed underbelly is what bothers me. There isn't a way to get in there and see those welds without opening up the underbelly.

Lets say we go down the road of finding a unit and purchasing said unit - would a dealer let us open up the underbelly (them open it up) to do such an inspection as a condition of purchasing? Not sure on that one.

[Beginner Trailer Family MA]

Take a look at pics taken July 25, 2022 of a 2022 Prime Time RV (Division of Forest River) "Avenger 26BK" pull-behind travel trailer purchased on July 16, 2022.  The the travel trailer "walk-thru, orientation" is August 5, 2022.  This trailer was manufactured on Oct 12, 2021.  This is our first ever travel trailer purchase.  My eyes caught this rust on the frame, bolts, etc.   Is this normal for 9 months old travel trailer.  It was delivered to the Saratoga, NY area and has been on a dealer lot since last winter.  When I asked the sales associate about the rust; I was shown another traveler next to it that had some rust on the trailer (not as much) and told "every travel trailer frame will have rust over time while sitting on a dealer's lot."  I'm concerned and looking for more knowledge from individuals more familiar with Lippert frame rusting.  Trailer is 9 months old, a 2022 "Avenger 26BK" manufactured by Prime Time RV, and has been sitting on the dealership lot.  Any suggestions what we should do?  We have already signed the purchase agreement and paid for the trailer in full.  We are using for family vacations with our 11 yr old daughter & 9 year old son.  First vacation is Aug 5 thru Aug 20.  Pulling this trailer 730 miles to Kelley's Island, Ohio from Massachusetts where we live.  Our primary goal is to take our kids camping once a month (until the weather gets too cold) during the three seasons.  Thanks for helping us.  (Unable to attach the pics)

[Kirk W]

Without any pictures it is very difficult to give an opinion. It is normal for there to be some traces of rust but not the deep pitting kind of rust. Most trailer frames are painted but there are always areas where bare metal shows and they will have a light coating of rust very quickly that harms nothng. If you click on the "choose files" link at the bottom of the page you should be able to add a small picture.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Kirk W

[Star Dreamer]

On 2/6/2022 at 2:57 PM, FlyFishn said:

Another thought - I didn't even think about this until looking back over the pictures.

The spring hangers might be questionable also - thickness and attachment to the frame. Again, since I can't see the frame up under all the enclosures there is no way to inspect. But it is at least another area of concern that begs to be looked over.

On the flip side of the coin, just as the leveling jack framing is suspicious, those components can be easily fixed should they develop issues down the road or they can be reinforced ahead of time to prevent issues.

In the theme of the thread - questioning known failure points - if spring hangers, specifically here in this post, haven't been known to fail then the statistics there would point to them being adequate = not worth my time/effort to do anything about, per se.

The other side of this coin is the axle capacity.

If the axles were right at or below the GVWR - then I would question the whole set up - axles, springs, spring hangers/frame attachment. In this specific case - the combined axles are over the GVWR = I don't think they would be worth upgrading. That would have to be given some extra thought down the road as every RV/trailer is different.

We have known of spring hanger issues where either the weld to the frame broke or the hanger itself bent and had to be boxed in to reinforce it. It appears Lippert uses the same size hangers for a 2000# axle as they do for an 8000# axle, same goes for the spring shackles (we personally had one fail in less than one year and we were not any where near full capacity on our axles, 6800# vs 8000# axle rating).

The other area that the Lippert frames are know for issues is at the gooseneck area for both welds and frame cracking. Luckily we can see the critical areas on our frame to inspect them but many times these areas are covered up and the sign of an issue is cracks on the side walls at the gooseneck area or at slides up on the gooseneck area. 

 

Also the statement that Lippert builds to the manufacturer specs is incorrect. Our manufacturer movies the frames after they get them to reinforce areas that they don't like how Lippert did it. If Lippert had built it to their specs, they would not need to do this. We watched our trailer being built and have pictures of the frame before starting and when they started the build plus when it was complete and could see the difference. 

[DJohns]

This is why I have a New Horizons. Their frames are built in house by their welder and his helper. Not welded by a low paid employee that has only worked there a week. I am not a good welder but I can weld better than the welds in the picture.

[telcoman]

I have led many RV caravans in Mexico, There are a lot of speed bumps on the highways there. I have seen 2 cases of cracks in Lippert frames. With the low labor costs down there, we had new weld jobs done on them both along with more reinforcing at all the weld points. There is no doubt in my mind they are a  problem. That is why I bought an Arctic Fox, because they do theiri own frames.

[johnid123]

We had our 2018 freedom express lippert main frame fail at the leaf spring weld ....