50 amp electric wiring from breaker

[Kirk W]

46 minutes ago, GeorgiaHybrid said:

It has been 120v/240v for 50 years and you still hear the older voltages being use

How the U.S. Came to Adapt 120V While Others are Using 230V

Voltages gradually increased over the years from 110V to 112V, 115V, 117V and finally to the current standard of 120/240V at 60 Hz in 1967.

[oldjohnt]

49 minutes ago, GeorgiaHybrid said:

Forgot to add, oldjohnt probably remembers DC power distribution back when he was working with Thomas Edison😁😁😁

Grrrrrrrrr lol Yep and I was on Edisons side but lost out to the upstarts and likes of Tesla and Westinghouse lol.. Seriously I once considered joining the Tesla Society he was a genius and ahead of his time but that wireless AC power distribution scheme didn't prove out.

PS you would be surprised at how many older farmers (maybe even a few RVers) think and call the standard 30 Amp RV receptacles as 220 !!!!!!!!!!

John T  An oldddddddd sparky indeed ................  

[Payroll Person]

Tt10-30 is simply misunderstood by most. With my home, No more room for high output with ac, range, swim spa, hot tub, dryer, and hot water. House is 1993, so well under in terms of circuits for modern use and 160a main service at present.

The tt10-30 serves us well for MH, and Tesla as needed.

I thought about an auto switch for dryer/Tesla, but it would involve more wiring or a long extension, and we seem to do fine with 120 @ 24a for the Tesla off peak.

If we elect solar, a service panel update will allow a full L2 charging outlet in the garage. 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Payroll Person

[oldjohnt]

19 hours ago, Payroll Person said:

Tt10-30 is simply misunderstood by most

I agree X2, Ive even heard some think or call them 220 !!

The NEMA TT-30 R is a 125 Volt 30 Amp 2 Pole 3 Wire Grounding Receptacle used by 30 Amp RV's. Their power cord has a NEMA TT-30 P Straight Blade Plug on its end. I have owned several homes and NEVER saw any of those in use HOWEVER I have seen NEMA 14-30R 125/250 Volt 30 Amp 3 Pole 4 Wire Receptacles in use.

As far as EV charging, I have seen NEMA 14-50R 125/250 Volt 50 Amp 3 Pole 4 Wire Grounding Receptacles in use which is the same as used by 50 Amp RV's.

Be safe everyone

John T

[Kirk W]

5 hours ago, oldjohnt said:

The NEMA TT-30 R is a 125 Volt 30 Amp 2 Pole 3 Wire Grounding Receptacle used by 30 Amp RV's. Their power cord has a NEMA TT-30 P Straight Blade Plug on its end. I have owned several homes and NEVER saw any of those in use

I am assuming that you mean none were in the stick houses? The only stick houses that I have seen with one had an RV port with the 30a outlet there for it. The house that we sold to move where we are now had one, but only in the RV port. 

[oldjohnt]

2 hours ago, Kirk W said:

I am assuming that you mean none were in the stick houses?

You assumption is certainly CORRECT. I have added my own NEMA TT-30R Receptacles in carports or garages etc for my RV's over the years. If my daughter ever decided to drive her Tesla from Texas to our Indiana home Id probably add a NEMA 14-50R for her benefit or my own for a 50 Amp RV if I were to get one. Her Tesla doesn't plug direct into a 14-50R but that was used to power up her Tesla level 2 charger as I recall last time I was there. 

As always nice sparky chatting with you

John T

Edited March 7, 2023 by oldjohnt

[Ray,IN]

On 10/30/2021 at 3:27 PM, LRKDRV7.3 said:

I have a 2009 DRV Elite suite

So a 50 amp rv has 2 50 amp hot leads.......so in phase or out of phase..... if in phase is 220.....right? Every one says 220 will fry rv electrical.....how do i get 2-50 amp legs from breaker panel without being 220?

This website explains your question in detail: https://www.myrv.us/electric/

An RV 4-prong 50A pedestal receptacle is no different than a household 50A 120/240VAC plug. The difference is inside the RV. The main breaker panel is constructed so the 2 120VAC bus bars cannot be connected to one breaker, one one 120VAC leg may be attached to a breaker. UNLESS  the RV is built to use a 240VAC clothes dryer or other 240VAC appliances.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Ray,IN

[Dutch_12078]

54 minutes ago, Ray,IN said:

This website explains your question in detail: https://www.myrv.us/electric/

An RV 4-prong 50A pedestal receptacle is no different than a household 50A 120/240VAC plug. The difference is inside the RV. The main breaker panel is constructed so the 2 120VAC bus bars cannot be connected to one breaker, one one 120VAC leg may be attached to a breaker. UNLESS  the RV is built to use a 240VAC clothes dryer or other 240VAC appliances.

Our 50 amp Landau Class A uses a standard Square D QC Load Center for the breaker box. Complete with a double pole, single handle, 50 amp main breaker. Every other breaker is on the same leg. This is the same panel that's often used as the primary panel in small buildings or as a sub-panel in larger buildings.

 

[Kirk W]

9 hours ago, Dutch_12078 said:

Our 50 amp Landau Class A uses a standard Square D QC Load Center for the breaker box.

That is one of the features that caused me to buy a Cruise Master as Georgie Boy used mostly commonly available electrical components. Our CM was a 50A model and it had a different Square D distribution panel but a larger one mounted pretty much the same as yours. 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Kirk W

[Dutch_12078]

1 hour ago, Kirk W said:

That is one of the features that caused me to buy a Cruise Master as Georgie Boy used mostly commonly available electrical components. Our CM was a 50A model and it had a different Square D distribution panel but a larger one mounted pretty much the same as yours. 

Yes, that was certainly a factor in our purchase decision as well. I did note as well that upgrading to a larger panel with additional breaker slots would be a relatively easy task, but the need hasn't come up. I could also simply replace an existing single breaker with another tandem breaker of course.

[oldjohnt]

  For the non sparkies here, one other MAJOR difference in an RV Panel versus "many" typical home panels is THE RV PANEL IS CONFIGURED AND WIRED WITH SEPERATE INSULATED AND ISOLATED NEUTRAL AND GROUND BUSSES (its treated as a Sub Panel) unlike "many" home panels where Neutral and Ground are bonded !!!!!!!!!!!!

  I likewise prefer "standard" Square D or GE etc. panels in an RV (when possible) as if anything is labeled for RV its more expensive PLUS maybe oddball or different style grrrrrrrrrrr  

 Nice sparky chatting. hope this helps, post back any questions...

 John T

Edited March 8, 2023 by oldjohnt

[Dutch_12078]

52 minutes ago, oldjohnt said:

  For the non sparkies here, one other MAJOR difference in an RV Panel versus "many" typical home panels is THE RV PANEL IS CONFIGURED AND WIRED WITH SEPERATE INSULATED AND ISOLATED NEUTRAL AND GROUND BUSSES (its treated as a Sub Panel) unlike "many" home panels where Neutral and Ground are bonded !!!!!!!!!!!!

  I likewise prefer "standard" Square D or GE etc. panels in an RV (when possible) as if anything is labeled for RV its more expensive PLUS maybe oddball or different style grrrrrrrrrrr  

 Nice sparky chatting. hope this helps, post back any questions...

 John T

John is correct of course, so I'll just note that nearly all standard residential panels like the Square D in our RV are equipped for easy conversion from a bonded neutral/ground to isolated neutral and ground by simply lifting or removing a bonding strap.

[57becky]

I was so glad the 110/220 was finally addressed in this thread.  I'm a retired utility lineman and this has always been a problem.  Also, talking about old voltages, my Dad, prior to WWII, owned a printing shop in NYC, and the voltage back then was DC, and the utility was converting over to AC voltage, came through, assessed what and how many motors needed to be converted, and as the sections of the city were converted, the utility had the motors replaced and any other conversion work was undertaken at the upgrade.  He said it was quite a job that was done to convert it all over.

[Kirk W]

9 hours ago, 57becky said:

I was so glad the 110/220 was finally addressed in this thread. .....

Also, talking about old voltages, my Dad, prior to WWII, owned a printing shop in NYC, and the voltage back then was DC, and the utility was converting over to AC voltage,

That has long been a pet gripe of mine too. On the other hand, your comment about the change to AC power caused me to do a little searching and I found this really interesting article about that part of history!  Very interesting reading.

In what year did the last of New York's DC electrical power customers to convert to AC service?

In 1882, the Edison Electric Illuminating Company began supplying direct-current electrical power to 59 customers in lower Manhattan, NY -- all of them within a square mile of inventor Thomas Edison's generator plant. This was the glaring drawback of Edison's proprietary DC system: it could not efficiently transmit bulk power over distances of more than a mile. While the "Wizard of Menlo Park" used his considerable fame, money and influence to promote adoption of his DC technology -- and the associated patent royalties Edison enjoyed -- it was a vain effort.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  Con-Ed didn't begin the project to finally deprecate all DC consumer power transmission until 1998, and it took nine years to finally convert all the DC lines to AC. In many cases, those DC customers still have DC lighting and power inside their homes and shops, but Con-Ed converts the AC line-power to DC with an on-premise rectifier. In the early 20th century, many taller building were designed with DC elevator systems that are still in service. Several hotels were designed with DC power stations in their basements to run their lights and appliances.

[oldjohnt]

15 hours ago, 57becky said:

I was so glad the 110/220 was finally addressed in this thread

  Its hard to believe it but Ive heard MANY MANY even long time RVers and MANY farmers (NOT professional electricians or electrical engineers) and lay people still call it HUNDRED AND TEN. I was at a farmers place who told me I could hook up my RV to what he said WAS TWO TWENTY. Of course I checked it out, he had a NEMA TT-30R 125 Volt 30 Amp Receptacle, which turns out was wired right for 120 VAC WHEW LOL 

 Way back in EE school at Purdue we studied the history of power distribution includuing the battle among Edison's DC versus Westinghouse (if I recall correct??) and Tesla AC  while the answer seems soooooooooo obvioius now. Had Edison only invented a DC Transformer wink wink lol

15 hours ago, 57becky said:

I'm a retired utility lineman and this has always been a problem.

  Bet that was a rewarding career, most of my engineering career involved secondary distribution although I did some design on our 12470 Y 7200 HV Distribution. I was impressed by all the safety procedures linemen used, an accident was never heard of in all my years  

 Hey many many non professionals still call it HUNDRED AND TEN and I don't see that changing anyway soon, but hey I don't know all the proper names/use when it comes to plumbing or HVAC or carpentry either !!!!!!!!

John T Another retired sparky

Edited March 9, 2023 by oldjohnt

[Kirk W]

8 minutes ago, oldjohnt said:

my engineering career

Do all engineering schools teach people how to take a very simple question and make the answer complicated?  😏  I have known a lot of engineers and all seem to excel at doing so.  An engineer friend says that the problem is one of knowing when good enough, really is good enough! 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Kirk W

[oldjohnt]

On 3/8/2023 at 10:32 AM, Dutch_12078 said:

John is correct of course, so I'll just note that nearly all standard residential panels like the Square D in our RV are equipped for easy conversion from a bonded neutral/ground to isolated neutral and ground by simply lifting or removing a bonding strap.

  Thanks Dutch, good note, yep that big crossover BONDING bar (from Neutral Buss over to Ground Buss) you spoke of is soooooooo obvious out in the open and easy to install where the typical home Main Panel provides the first disconnect means and likewise soooooooo easy to remove (two screws) when the panel is configured as a Sub Panel. As you well know some (maybe cheaper??) service panels use a single common buss bar where BOTH Neutrals and Grounds attach.  I was never a fan their use in all my years of practice...

 Its a pleasure sparky chatting with you gentlemen even if we may bore some other non techy types lol

 Best wishes and God Bless yall

 John T Live in the RV dry camped at Lake Rosalie, Lake Wales Florida,,,,,, its hottttttttttt here

[Wrknrvr]

Can I post a blank answer.

 

 

  As in a nice clean thoughts.   To many other things to be thinking of at this time.

  

Edited March 9, 2023 by Wrknrvr

[oldjohnt]

17 hours ago, Wrknrvr said:

Can I post a blank answer.

 

 

  As in a nice clean thoughts.   To many other things to be thinking of at this time.

Good Morning Wrknrvr, I look forward to ANY answer (or blank lol)  you submit. I appreciate and have learned from your many technical postings and am glad to help my fellow RVers anytime I can. There are a fine bunch of gentlemen on here, lay as well as professional, all willing to help yayyyyyyyyyyy God Bless em all

Thanks for sharing your experience and all your help, I hope to hear from you soon my sparky friend....  

John T  Still dry camped East of Lake Wales FL

Edited March 10, 2023 by oldjohnt

[Wrknrvr]

   I guess I should fill that blank page. Sorta, maybe.

 

   Well back in the late 70’s I was drilling wells and installing water systems of homes, farms and some industries.

  So I was invited to a pump installation and repair school at Gould’s pumps in New York State. It was two or three days long. It’s been a few since then. 

   We had a tour of the foundry and manufacturing side of there business the first day. At that time they were making 1/2 hp pumps up to 48” discharge pumps for the oil industry.  Oil industry part I never heard of them doing that. But back then there was a oil boom on.

 

  So anyway, getting to voltage thoughts. Well the instructor was very good at hands on work and explained the technical parts very good also.

 

   So there were maybe 30 attendees at the school. With a lot of experience and questions.

   So one real thing was line voltage for your situation. How far is the power traveling to get to your job site. 20, 30 ,80 miles. Or more. Now that statement covers a lot of thoughts.

    So the instructor started to talk about voltage. And distance. They he said you have people getting home from work, electrical water heaters being used. Well pumps running. Dairy farmers milking. Dairy farmers cooling tank operating because of warm milk being pumped into the tank. Maybe a Boy Scout camp operation. And more stuff operating. Now at that time I was working in rural areas of Pennsylvania.

   So the instructor said instead of checking voltage at 9 am in the morning when things are calm.   You need to check at the peak usage time, usually at say 6 pm.

   The instructor knew that some of the motors were quitting on a larger scale than they should.   Apparently they figured out the line voltages were on the low end when everything was being used. On the farthest end of the grid.

    I forgot to say maybe there were 3 campgrounds out in the end of the valley I worked in.

 

  It seams to me that back then they had motors that had either a low voltage rating of say 115 volts, or 120 volts on each leg of power.

   That way they had longer lasting motors for the appropriate voltage situation.

   Now I need to think this through some. Digging back in my brain as all my well drilling stufffff. Is long gone.

 

  Now you need to think. If I am ok.

[Kirk W]

3 hours ago, Wrknrvr said:

Apparently they figured out the line voltages were on the low end when everything was being used. On the farthest end of the grid.

That same thing can happen in an RV park and is especially inclined to do so in the summer when air conditioners are in use. 

[oldjohnt]

  Thanks for your thoughts Wrknrvr, glad you filled out that blank page lol. My years of experience in the electrical power industry bears up what you say. Line Voltage Drop becomes more n more a factor and more n more critical as loads increase especially in the heat of the day WELL DUH lol The same holds true on the HV primary grid as well as the LV secondary. The father from the substation the lower the voltage during times of high current in which case supply transformers may use different taps. Unfortunately on the LV end user side long runs and high loads yielded low voltages at the far end of the plant !!!!!!! Sounds like you had some fine instructors, I did likewise at NEC Seminars taught by the likes of Joe McPartland (EC&M Magazine) and Mike Holt.

 As far as motors and their design, my first Electrical Engineering job was with the Century Electric Motor Company where I learned how designs changed over the years from when they were (seemed to me at the time, no guarantee) heavier, perhaps more iron and magnetic material, more copper versus when market factors and economics perhaps caused changes. I remember the big huge heavy Repulsion Start Induction Run motors !!! Now those would start high torque loads with ease lol 

 Other factors I observed over the years was how the utility supplier (perhaps to save money ??) provided less service transformers at a location, maybe the customer used 208 (got him by in certain situations) instead of 240. Earlier days the utility may have furnished 480, 120/240, as well as 208Y 120 however later they ONLY provided 480 and the customer had to supply his own dry transformers for other voltage requirements ...  

 One last note, earlier industry used a lot of UNgrounded Floating Delta (for their good reason at the time) while later Grounded systems came in favor.......

Thanks again Wrknrvr and all the fine gents here who contributed to this informative thread, I hope we helped the PO at the risk of boring non sparky or non power lovers lol

Best wishes and God Bless all here, love this Forum and helping anytime I can

John T   BSEE,JD

[Wrknrvr]

    I forgot about 208 voltage.    You digging into my old thoughts from when my hair was brown. Even had some on top. One time I helped physically to install a 450 horse power pump for dewatering a quarry. But a electrician did the wiring.  Was involved in building a platform that hung out over the edge of the cliff at the edge of the quarry. That pump was going be installed on the platform.

   Engineer said something needed welded under that platform. And it was my turn to hang under the platform and weld. He said just relax. Your gonna get tired enough that you will relax anyway. He did ask if I could swim. The engineer was in the 1972 Olympics. 

 

    I think Europe had quite a bit of voltage problems, needing ways to solve them. 50 hertz or 60 hertz. 

    Well this subject could go on for a long time.

 

 

[oldjohnt]

1 hour ago, Wrknrvr said:

I forgot about 208 voltage.

I specified a ton of 208 Y 120 Volt Three Phase Four Wire services in applications where the bulk of the load was 120 VAC Single Phase Convenience and Lighting (like an office) NEVER heavy industrial. If the HVAC was relatively low I used 208 Volt Three Phase for that alone. I also used a lot of 277 Volt Single Phase.

 John T

Edited March 11, 2023 by oldjohnt

[Darryl&Rita]

We still have a lot of Open Delta service drops, along side the rail lines in small towns. Watch for the identified phase, if you're dealing with a 3 phase service. Most of the service drops left in use are residential 120/240 volt, so the identified phase gets left on top of the pole.