Best battery, lithium?

[Lou Schneider]

On 1/23/2021 at 7:26 AM, chief916 said:

So the charger in my toy hauler and my TT will not effectively charge a 100 ah li battery?

Most likely it will.  I put a pair of 105 ah Lion Safari UT1300 batteries in my Safari Trek and was going to upgrade the inverter and charger, but decided to try the existing one first.  It's a 1 Kw MSW that was installed by the factory back in 1997 and puts out a constant 13.6 volts.  The batteries have an internal 5 LED state of charge meter.  At a constant 13.6 volts they'll charge until the batteries are >80% full at 25 amps each (50 amps total).  5 out of 5 bars lit on the meter.

Raise the voltage to 14.1 - 14.6 volts and you'll get the last 15-20% in.  Or don't, leaving LiFePo batteries partially charged doesn't hurt anything and may even prolong their already long lives.

Doesn't this sound amazingly similar to a multistage lead acid battery charger profile?  Constant current for bulk charging at the charger's rated capacity until the voltage rises to 14.1 volts.  Hold it there for a few hours for an acceptance charge, then reduce to 13.6 volts for long term charging.

There's a reason Battleborn, Renogy and others are marketing their batteries as plug and play compatable.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Lou Schneider

[Randy and Helen]

Battle born and dragon fly lithium are built in the same building.  One is on one end and the other is at the other end.  That’s what I was told a couple of years ago when I bought the dragon fly lithium batteries.  A lot less weight and deep discharge and quick recharge.  Glad that I changed over from lead acid.  Supposedly the battle born are residential where dragon fly are commercial.  That’s what I was told by my dealer.

[chief916]

On 1/23/2021 at 10:00 PM, Chad Heiser said:

It sounds like you do not have inverters or solar in either of your rigs from what you are describing.  I’m going to go against the grain here and say if my assumption about your rigs is correct, I would not put lithium batteries in them.  Lithium batteries are ideal for high draw, high usage installations. If all you are using your battery for is to keep the 12 volt lights on, run the RV fridge on gas while traveling and other basic draws, then lithium is overkill for your usage.  Unless you have inverter(s), solar, boondock for extended periods or have some other specific reason for going lithium, the cost is too high currently to justify making the switch.  I may be off base in my assumption, but if not I would need a good reason in your situation to look at lithium.

Chad, my toyhauler is a 2013 and the TT is a 2019. I believe they both have some type of charger onboard.  We've been gearing up to try to go solar for about a year now.  When we do travel we usually go 3 or 4 times a year and we stay out on the road for about a month at a time.  We often times discussed having a way to run the air conditioner when parked in a Walmart parking lot for the night.  I bring a small genny along when in the TT but i think it not practical etiquette to fire it up in a parking lot.  The DW and I are willing to go the LiFe approach to see if its a good alternative.  I appreciate what you say, it has merrit.  We've been doing our homework and we also discussed to try to do boondocking.  We're going to try it on are property for a week or so with both units to see how it works.

Thank you.

Ben "chief916"

[chief916]

21 hours ago, Lou Schneider said:

Most likely it will.  I put a pair of 105 ah Renogy UT1300 batteries in my Safari Trek and was going to upgrade the inverter and charger, but decided to try the existing one first.  It's a 1 Kw MSW that was installed by the factory back in 1997 and puts out a constant 13.6 volts.  The batteries have an internal 5 LED state of charge meter.  At a constant 13.6 volts they'll charge until the batteries are >80% full at 25 amps each (50 amps total).  5 out of 5 bars lit on the meter.

Raise the voltage to 14.1 - 14.6 volts and you'll get the last 15-20% in.  Or don't, leaving LiFePo batteries partially charged doesn't hurt anything and may even prolong their already long lives.

Doesn't this sound amazingly similar to a multistage lead acid battery charger profile?  Constant current for bulk charging at the charger's rated capacity until the voltage rises to 14.1 volts.  Hold it there for a few hours for an acceptance charge, then reduce to 13.6 volts for long term charging.

There's a reason Battleborn, Renogy and others are marketing their batteries as plug and play compatable.

This is good info Lou...thank you.

[Jaydrvr]

If you're looking to run an a.c., your battery requirements increase exponentially, but it can be done. I think the rule of thumb is one Battleborn equivalent for each hour of desired a.c. time. It can get really pricy. Ten hours, ten Battleborns, ten grand. And then, you still have to be able to recharge them. Jay

[Chad Heiser]

2 hours ago, chief916 said:

Chad, my toyhauler is a 2013 and the TT is a 2019. I believe they both have some type of charger onboard.  We've been gearing up to try to go solar for about a year now.  When we do travel we usually go 3 or 4 times a year and we stay out on the road for about a month at a time.  We often times discussed having a way to run the air conditioner when parked in a Walmart parking lot for the night.  I bring a small genny along when in the TT but i think it not practical etiquette to fire it up in a parking lot.  The DW and I are willing to go the LiFe approach to see if its a good alternative.  I appreciate what you say, it has merrit.  We've been doing our homework and we also discussed to try to do boondocking.  We're going to try it on are property for a week or so with both units to see how it works.

Thank you.

Ben "chief916"

I wish you luck with your plans.  I also would like to run an air conditioner for a few hours once in a while from my batteries, but it probably will never happen in my current set up.  My next RV will have the equipment to allow me to do it though.  In order to run air conditioners, you will need a significant investment in batteries as stated above.  You will also need a large enough inverter to supply the 110 volt power from the batteries to power the AC.  You will also probably need a soft start module installed on your AC unit so the initial surge of the AC starting up doesn't overwhelm the inverter.  You will be looking at close to $10000.00 in parts to make something like that work.  This would be for the batteries, inverter and associated components and solar to keep everything charged.  It will then all have to be installed by either you or someone who will charge you another significant amount of money for the labor.  If you want to be able to do the same in both trailers, your expenses obviously go up accordingly.

[Randyretired]

1 hour ago, Chad Heiser said:

I wish you luck with your plans.  I also would like to run an air conditioner for a few hours once in a while from my batteries, but it probably will never happen in my current set up.  My next RV will have the equipment to allow me to do it though.  In order to run air conditioners, you will need a significant investment in batteries as stated above.  You will also need a large enough inverter to supply the 110 volt power from the batteries to power the AC.  You will also probably need a soft start module installed on your AC unit so the initial surge of the AC starting up doesn't overwhelm the inverter.  You will be looking at close to $10000.00 in parts to make something like that work.  This would be for the batteries, inverter and associated components and solar to keep everything charged.  It will then all have to be installed by either you or someone who will charge you another significant amount of money for the labor.  If you want to be able to do the same in both trailers, your expenses obviously go up accordingly.

Before you spend all of that money to run an AC it might be wise to look into a mini split.  These are a lot more efficient and use a lot less power.  Our 12,000 btu mini split uses on average about 450 watts or less and cools our Teton comfortably in temps into the low to mid 90's.  Less batteries, solar and a smaller inverter.  So quiet we can hardly hear it.  We purchased ours for around $700.  Best modification we have.

[chief916]

22 hours ago, Chad Heiser said:

I wish you luck with your plans.  I also would like to run an air conditioner for a few hours once in a while from my batteries, but it probably will never happen in my current set up.  My next RV will have the equipment to allow me to do it though.  In order to run air conditioners, you will need a significant investment in batteries as stated above.  You will also need a large enough inverter to supply the 110 volt power from the batteries to power the AC.  You will also probably need a soft start module installed on your AC unit so the initial surge of the AC starting up doesn't overwhelm the inverter.  You will be looking at close to $10000.00 in parts to make something like that work.  This would be for the batteries, inverter and associated components and solar to keep everything charged.  It will then all have to be installed by either you or someone who will charge you another significant amount of money for the labor.  If you want to be able to do the same in both trailers, your expenses obviously go up accordingly.

Ok..... now you got me 🤔🤔🤔🤔 thinking.  To be sure.  Wouldn't a 100 ah at least run a microwave, couple of fans, lights and/or TV?  I'm trying hard to get onboard with solar electric but the cost you just mentioned puts me right back to where my mind set was 5 years ago.  Is it really really worth it?.

[chief916]

21 hours ago, Randyretired said:

Before you spend all of that money to run an AC it might be wise to look into a mini split.  These are a lot more efficient and use a lot less power.  Our 12,000 btu mini split uses on average about 450 watts or less and cools our Teton comfortably in temps into the low to mid 90's.  Less batteries, solar and a smaller inverter.  So quiet we can hardly hear it.  We purchased ours for around $700.  Best modification we have.

Randy can this be done using a 100 ah battery and a 2200 watt inverter and solar?  Maybe even 2 100 Ah batteries.  What brand is your mini split?

[Jaydrvr]

Only you can determine what you need, but most people quickly run out of capacity with a single battery. You will also run into current limitations, both charging and withdrawing. A single battery will likely not run a microwave, but will operate lights, etc. for quite a while. I personally think I'm going for two 100 ah batteries and skip the solar setup completely. I'd rather spend that on batteries. My reasoning is because you can charge lithiums with the generator at maximum rate all the way to full. No taper charge is needed to top off, so you have less genset run time. Jay

[Nwcid]

1 hour ago, chief916 said:

Ok..... now you got me 🤔🤔🤔🤔 thinking.  To be sure.  Wouldn't a 100 ah at least run a microwave, couple of fans, lights and/or TV?  I'm trying hard to get onboard with solar electric but the cost you just mentioned puts me right back to where my mind set was 5 years ago.  Is it really really worth it?.

Solar will never pay for itself in an RV.  If you want solar it is because you do not like the sound of running generators.  Even the super quiet ones.  I could easily buy at least 1500 gallons of fuel for what I paid for my batteries/solar.  That is at least 2500 hours of generator run time.  Still, to me, it is worth it for the quiet and convenience.  

Part of the large cost comes in battery type.  You can get FLA cheapest.  For about 40% more you can get AGM, and for 100-150% more you can get lithium.  In my current set up using FLA it would cost $900, AGM (what I have) $1300 and in lithium $3000 for a slightly smaller equivalent bank and $4000 for a slightly larger equivalent bank. 

Yes, a 100 AH battery would run a microwave.  The question is for how long.  Say your microwave takes 1000 W of 120 V, that = 8.3 amp (1000/120).  Now if you want to run it from battery, though an inverter, not accounting for any loss you have 1000 W of 12 V, that = 83.3 amps (1000/12).  So in theory you could run your microwave about 1 hour.  

Now to the rest of your question, how many amps do the things you want to use draw?  In my situation at "idle" when we are away with most items turned off we draw 3-4 amps.  When we have TV's on, fans on, computers on, lights on, daily living/working mode I typically draw around 20 amps.  In theory a 100 AH battery would last about 5hr before it was dead.  Now it needs to be charged to do it again.  How are you charging it and at how many amps? 

A 100 watt solar panel makes about 5 amps at peak performance.  This peak may only be a couple of hours a day up to maybe 6-8 in the summer in the south.  At 5 amps it would take 20 hours to charge you battery back up.  

On my current RV in 2 years I have just over 200 hours on the generator.  About 36 hours of that came from our last trip where it snowed and froze.  Solar does not work under snow and we wanted to use the electric fireplace to supplement the propane heat.  I ran it all day for 3 days and shut it down at night.   With my new HDT I have an APU on it.  This will produce 60 amps of 12 V and uses .15 gal/hr of fuel from the 125 gallon tank.  It only calls for service every 1000 hours.  So the cost of producing power is very low.  I still would not be without the solar system I have. 

[Randyretired]

44 minutes ago, chief916 said:

Randy can this be done using a 100 ah battery and a 2200 watt inverter and solar?  Maybe even 2 100 Ah batteries.  What brand is your mini split?

Well maybe.  Last summer we were camped in Colorado at an elevation of 7200'.  Day time temperatures typically were in the upper 80's to low 90's but as soon as the sun set it cooled significantly.   We ran the mini split with 2,000 watts of solar and 6 golf cart batteries.  We also powered a refrigerator and things like morning coffee, tv and so on.  The keys here are 1 summer and 2 day time AC.  If you need AC through the night or into late fall then a more robust system is needed.  The 6 golf cart batteries are roughly equivalent to 3 100ah lithium batteries. In our case I felt we pretty much maxed out our system and for starters we are upgrading to lithium.  800ah worth of self built batteries.

Mini splits are a huge improvement over the RV AC.  Any high seer mini split will use about 25% of the power that a RV AC uses.  Our 12,000 btu mini split cools better than one of the 15,000 btu RV AC's but not as good as both.   Mini splits use inverter technology to vary the compressors so the power surges common with most AC's are eliminated. Our mini split has a seer of 21.5.  Which means it produces 21.5 btu's per watt under certain testing conditions. We have a 2,000 watt inverter and could easily run the coffe pot, the refrigerator and the 120 volt  mini split at the same time.  

A 100ah lithium battery stores roughly 1200 watt hours so if the min split is the only thing drawing power it will power the mini split for a shade more than 2 hous after figuring for losses.  As less cooling is needed the compressor and fans will slow down and use less power so maybe longer but you get the idea.  To actually specifically answer your question in detail  a lot more information would need to be considered.  Our mini split is a Klimair but Pioneer and others sell comparable models.  In fact many appear to be made by the same factory but with different names.  The higher the seer the more efficient it is and both larger and smaller units are available.

 

 

[Jaydrvr]

Using Battleborns as an example, they're limited to 100 amps maximum discharge rate. A GE 1.7 cu.ft. convection microwave is listed as 950 watts. A quick and dirty conversion to dc would suggest about 95 amps needed, not including parasitic losses. So, theoretically it should just barely work, if nothing else is in use. A single battery just doesn't go very far. Jay

[Randyretired]

7 minutes ago, Jaydrvr said:

Using Battleborns as an example, they're limited to 100 amps maximum discharge rate. A GE 1.7 cu.ft. convection microwave is listed as 950 watts. A quick and dirty conversion to dc would suggest about 95 amps needed, not including parasitic losses. So, theoretically it should just barely work, if nothing else is in use. A single battery just doesn't go very far. Jay

Microwaves are measured by output power and use significantly more power to produce that output.  A 950 watt microwave would probably use about 1300 watts.  Add in about another 10 to 20% for inverter and other losses and it can add up quickly.

Edited January 26, 2021 by Randyretired

[Jaydrvr]

10 minutes ago, Randyretired said:

Microwaves are measured by output power and use significantly more power to produce that output.  A 950 watt microwave would probably use about 1300 watts.  Add in about another 10 to 20% for inverter and other losses and it can add up quickly.

Exactly so. There are a lot of losses in every setup that are not readily visible. The microwave used as an example listed 15 amps needed at 115vac. Jay

Edited January 26, 2021 by Jaydrvr

[DesertMiner]

BB specs.....

https://1t1pye1e13di20waq11old70-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/BB10012-Cut-Sheet.pdf

 

[jcussen]

As DesertMiner posted above, 200 amps for up to 30 seconds, better to run two battleborn's  for any prolonged use of a microwave.

[Chad Heiser]

6 hours ago, chief916 said:

Ok..... now you got me 🤔🤔🤔🤔 thinking.  To be sure.  Wouldn't a 100 ah at least run a microwave, couple of fans, lights and/or TV?  I'm trying hard to get onboard with solar electric but the cost you just mentioned puts me right back to where my mind set was 5 years ago.  Is it really really worth it?.

The pricing I gave was for a high end system.  I'm talking full Victron suite of components, RV specific American made panels and lithium batteries making a large(ish) battery bank.  It can be done for less cost with lesser components, but the battery costs remain about the same (assuming you use drop in OEM replacement lithium batteries).  If you want to build your own lithium batteries, you can reduce the battery costs some.  It really comes down to doing an energy audit of your RV(s).  I give presentations on this stuff and spend a decent amount of time on how to go about this in those presentations.  It is a little difficult to do over a forum.  The energy audit will determine what components you need (size of inverter, size of battery bank, size of solar array).  Once those are set, then you can figure out what brands you want to go with and that will end up determining final costs.  The final factor is do you pay someone else to do the installation, or are you capable of doing the installation yourself?  Depending on the route you take, installation can potentially double the costs involved.  As an example, the last time I checked, AM Solar (a reputable installer in the Pacific North West) charges $100 an hour.  They typically have two installers working on a rig (now $200 an hour).  A full installation is going to run in the 20 to 30 hour range for those two installers (maybe more, maybe less depending on the rig).  That is a $6000.00 labor charge potentially on top of the parts expenses.

[GlennWest]

21 hours ago, chief916 said:

Ok..... now you got me 🤔🤔🤔🤔 thinking.  To be sure.  Wouldn't a 100 ah at least run a microwave, couple of fans, lights and/or TV?  I'm trying hard to get onboard with solar electric but the cost you just mentioned puts me right back to where my mind set was 5 years ago.  Is it really really worth it?.

used panels 250 watt can be bought for $50.00. 

[chief916]

On 1/26/2021 at 12:55 PM, Nwcid said:

Solar will never pay for itself in an RV.  If you want solar it is because you do not like the sound of running generators.  Even the super quiet ones.  I could easily buy at least 1500 gallons of fuel for what I paid for my batteries/solar.  That is at least 2500 hours of generator run time.  Still, to me, it is worth it for the quiet and convenience.  

Part of the large cost comes in battery type.  You can get FLA cheapest.  For about 40% more you can get AGM, and for 100-150% more you can get lithium.  In my current set up using FLA it would cost $900, AGM (what I have) $1300 and in lithium $3000 for a slightly smaller equivalent bank and $4000 for a slightly larger equivalent bank. 

Yes, a 100 AH battery would run a microwave.  The question is for how long.  Say your microwave takes 1000 W of 120 V, that = 8.3 amp (1000/120).  Now if you want to run it from battery, though an inverter, not accounting for any loss you have 1000 W of 12 V, that = 83.3 amps (1000/12).  So in theory you could run your microwave about 1 hour.  

Now to the rest of your question, how many amps do the things you want to use draw?  In my situation at "idle" when we are away with most items turned off we draw 3-4 amps.  When we have TV's on, fans on, computers on, lights on, daily living/working mode I typically draw around 20 amps.  In theory a 100 AH battery would last about 5hr before it was dead.  Now it needs to be charged to do it again.  How are you charging it and at how many amps? 

A 100 watt solar panel makes about 5 amps at peak performance.  This peak may only be a couple of hours a day up to maybe 6-8 in the summer in the south.  At 5 amps it would take 20 hours to charge you battery back up.  

On my current RV in 2 years I have just over 200 hours on the generator.  About 36 hours of that came from our last trip where it snowed and froze.  Solar does not work under snow and we wanted to use the electric fireplace to supplement the propane heat.  I ran it all day for 3 days and shut it down at night.   With my new HDT I have an APU on it.  This will produce 60 amps of 12 V and uses .15 gal/hr of fuel from the 125 gallon tank.  It only calls for service every 1000 hours.  So the cost of producing power is very low.  I still would not be without the solar system I have. 

Nwcid, wow.... Thats a lot of info to wrap my head around.  Gonna continue to research and whenever the weather clears, ill get out and do a energy audit to see what I'm dealing with.  I just finished an article about AGM Renogy batteries.  I'm gonna have to really think this thing through like all you fellas are telling me.  Thanks to you and everyone else here,  I'm extremely grateful for everyone taking the time to educate me.  DW and I are sincerely impressed at the knowledge that is presented in the thread.  Again, thank you.

[chief916]

On 1/26/2021 at 6:22 PM, Chad Heiser said:

The pricing I gave was for a high end system.  I'm talking full Victron suite of components, RV specific American made panels and lithium batteries making a large(ish) battery bank.  It can be done for less cost with lesser components, but the battery costs remain about the same (assuming you use drop in OEM replacement lithium batteries).  If you want to build your own lithium batteries, you can reduce the battery costs some.  It really comes down to doing an energy audit of your RV(s).  I give presentations on this stuff and spend a decent amount of time on how to go about this in those presentations.  It is a little difficult to do over a forum.  The energy audit will determine what components you need (size of inverter, size of battery bank, size of solar array).  Once those are set, then you can figure out what brands you want to go with and that will end up determining final costs.  The final factor is do you pay someone else to do the installation, or are you capable of doing the installation yourself?  Depending on the route you take, installation can potentially double the costs involved.  As an example, the last time I checked, AM Solar (a reputable installer in the Pacific North West) charges $100 an hour.  They typically have two installers working on a rig (now $200 an hour).  A full installation is going to run in the 20 to 30 hour range for those two installers (maybe more, maybe less depending on the rig).  That is a $6000.00 labor charge potentially on top of the parts expenses.

Chad, I can see how quickly I can be overwhelmed by all of this.  Thank you sir.

[chief916]

On 1/26/2021 at 3:32 PM, jcussen said:

As DesertMiner posted above, 200 amps for up to 30 seconds, better to run two battleborn's  for any prolonged use of a microwave.

Jcussen, I've looked at Renogy, Dekota and Battle Born.  Are they not all the same?  Or is it just a matter of preference?

[Nwcid]

51 minutes ago, chief916 said:

Nwcid, wow.... Thats a lot of info to wrap my head around.  Gonna continue to research and whenever the weather clears, ill get out and do a energy audit to see what I'm dealing with.  I just finished an article about AGM Renogy batteries.  I'm gonna have to really think this thing through like all you fellas are telling me.  Thanks to you and everyone else here,  I'm extremely grateful for everyone taking the time to educate me.  DW and I are sincerely impressed at the knowledge that is presented in the thread.  Again, thank you.

You are welcome.  That is the cliff notes version also. 

The #1 thing you really need too do is the energy audit.  How much do you want to run and for how long?

Next is how will you maintain or replenish your needs.  

Here are some concepts that may help put it more in perspective:

Amp draw = MPG. Just like your pick up gets better mileage empty than it does towing, you draw will vary. 

AH rating on batteries = Fuel tank size.  Tank size/MPG = how long you can last without refilling. 

Fill up is not as easy since really you only have 2 options and only if you are using diesel.  In an RV, you have solar, generator, alternator, inverter/charger, external charger, etc.  Knowing what the amp output you need/want will determine the best options. 

[Randyretired]

One thing to remember is it doesn't have to be just solar/battery or generator.  Many times you can use solar but supplement it with a little generator time.  Also, as long as you plan ahead you can add more solar and lithium batteries overtime.  I wouldn't recommend mixing FLA batteries but I wouldn't have a problem adding lithium batteries over a couple of years.  One of our friends built his solar and batteries to watch TV late into the evenings and didn't mind running a generator during daylight hours as needed.

[jcussen]

2 hours ago, chief916 said:

Jcussen, I've looked at Renogy, Dekota and Battle Born.  Are they not all the same?  Or is it just a matter of preference?

Probably a matter of preference. but still differences

Bought my battleborn's 7 yers ago and had no problems at all, plus free shipping and no tax. Mine have showed no degradation I can notice, but I normally keep SOC between about 50 and 90& SOC

About  battleborn,  have heard of one battleborn battery failure, and company immediately sent him one, and prepaid his return 

But do check Wil Proswe on UTUBE, he point outs the pros and cons of many lithium batteries. offen with a full teardown on many.