How I spent my day on Monday

[Chad Heiser]

This will give you an idea of how I spent my day on Monday.  It is a good reminder to do a proper pre-trip inspection.  We are still investigating to determine the exact cause of why the dump truck went through the intersection the way it did.  This is a news article about the incident, so I am not giving away anything that isn't public knowledge.  We are extremely lucky no one was killed as a result of the incident.

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

WOW... 

You had a busy day.

[I'mdonewiththis forum]

Quite a mess. I don't envy you! I have a feeling I know what happened by what was said in the article.........

[jkoenig24]

Glad you're still with us. 

[Buscrusher]

Ouch!! What a mess!

[tyates007]

Very Lucky. I have had to investigate some nasty crashes. Sometimes when you look at the aftermath you wonder how people walked away. 

[Dp26]

There is no easy route down the hill. Not only is it relatively steep, it is not straight, with plenty of lights and side roads along the way. Unfortunately, the sheer number of loads coming down, the odds are not in safety's favor.

Hopefully something can be learned, and all recover fully.

[Chad Heiser]

This incident has definitely ignited a hornets nest in the area.  There are many agencies (local, state and federal) waiting on the outcome.  The disaster recovery efforts from the fires are being watched by many “eyes”.  This got everyone concerned about the safety of those efforts and things are being put in place to hopefully prevent future incidents.  It has been an interesting couple of days dealing with many “bosses” from many agencies.

[Chad Heiser]

3 hours ago, Dp26 said:

There is no easy route down the hill. Not only is it relatively steep, it is not straight, with plenty of lights and side roads along the way. Unfortunately, the sheer number of loads coming down, the odds are not in safety's favor.

Hopefully something can be learned, and all recover fully.

Dp26, I see from your profile you are in Northern CA and from your comments are familiar with the roadway involved.  Where about are you from?  I don’t run into many forum members in these parts.

[Dp26]

Napa. Many friends in SR area, some are now former Fountaingrove residents...

Stayed at the Sonoma County fairgrounds not too long after the fires. Met many displaced folks, and many who were in town with their dump trucks/trailers for clean up work. One truck/operator was from AK... Chatted with the operator a bit, asking how the gig worked. Was again in that area a couple of weeks ago, including West FG to 101.

[Chad Heiser]

Here is a follow up news article describing some of the injuries suffered in the collision.

[I'mdonewiththis forum]

Wow.......It's too bad that others have to suffer because of one "driver" that was going to fast. I have other comments, but it would be better to keep them to myself.......

[Big5er]

Tom, until the investigative completes it is premature to say the dump truck was going "too fast". Mechanical failure, the dump trucks weight, driver error, or even a medical issue could be the cause. Yes, a crash happened but until Chad and his buds get done you can't blame "speed".

[I'mdonewiththis forum]

I'm not really assigning all the blame to 'speed'. I have learned through time and experience that the driver is culpable due to lack of experience, lack of maintenance/inspection, drowsiness, etc. caused the truck to be moving at a rate faster than was required for the given conditions.

[Chad Heiser]

Here is another article on the incident.  Obviously I can't reveal anything regarding the actual investigation, but some additional things are addressed in this newspaper article.  The entire debris removal effort in the county was halted for a day and a half by the Army Corps of Engineers in order to inspect every truck involved in the effort as a safety precaution based on this incident.

I originally posted this thread as a way of reminding everyone that we drive large and complicated vehicles.  As such, we have a responsibility to make sure they are safe and in good operating order.  This is not just meant for HDT drivers, but also DP drivers and other large recreational vehicles.  This means doing pre-trip inspections and performing break tests.  These are things that people not involved in the commercial world aren't always familiar with.  I actually did a short seminar on conducting a pre-trip and brake test at the WCR last year and will probably do so again this year.  While we do not yet know the cause of this collision, it is still a good reminder to do these things.

[Pete Kildow]

11 hours ago, Big5er said:

Tom, until the investigative completes it is premature to say the dump truck was going "too fast". Mechanical failure, the dump trucks weight, driver error, or even a medical issue could be the cause. Yes, a crash happened but until Chad and his buds get done you can't blame "speed".

Did you catch the part. Where the driver hit the Emergency Brake? Must be a new deal, Never seen one of those things on a Air brake system. 

Sounds like he may have gotten something between the floor and foot brake.

[I'mdonewiththis forum]

Pulling the yellow button out is the emergency brake and also the parking brake.

While the exact cause of the speed issue is not known (at this time) we all know that not being able to stop at a stop light or because traffic is stopped in front of you, you ARE going too fast for conditions.

[Big5er]

2 hours ago, Pete Kildow said:

Did you catch the part. Where the driver hit the Emergency Brake? Must be a new deal, Never seen one of those things on a Air brake system. 

Sounds like he may have gotten something between the floor and foot brake.

I never saw anything in any of the articles saying anything about THIS ACCIDENT and the driver hitting the emergency brake. I did see this:

Quote

A similar, but less serious, crash occurred at the same location Jan. 16.
In that incident, the driver of a loaded dump truck headed down Fountaingrove Parkway about 10 a.m. found his brakes weren’t responding. As he got toward the bottom he used the truck’s emergency brake to slow before reaching Mendocino Avenue, said Santa Rosa police Sgt. Dan Hackett.

Tom, 
a medical condition that causes someone to strike the vehicle ahead of them has nothing to do with speed. A catastrophic brake failure has nothing to do with speed. At 1 mile an hour, if you have a heart attack, or a complete brake failure you can hit another vehicle. Your "assumption" that speed was an issue may very well prove to be accurate, but again, until Chad presents some FACTS, your assumption is strictly speculation. A driver on his cell phone, and striking another vehicle has nothing to do with speed, other than the fact that his vehicle is moving.
 The dump truck entered the intersection and hit some cars. That is the only fact you have. One article says he "collided with a total of nine other vehicles". The second article says he struck an F-150 causing the F-150 to hit an Explorer (well there is one of the nine he might not have hit) and the 3rd article says the dump truck struck 5 other vehicles (4 of the 9 now that he didn't hit). Bases on these articles the only "facts" you have is that a dump truck ran a red light, hit some cars, and maybe not some others, and they caught fire. You also have the fact that all 3 articles tell different stories and the fact that the people who are investigating the crash (Chad and crew) said "The speed of the vehicle, the weight of the load in the truck and what led driver Francisco Alberto Rodriguez, 45, of Sunnyvale to lose control are still unknown, Heiser said.
Rodriguez had a valid commercial driver’s license, was not under the influence of drugs or alcohol and had only been working for a few hours at the time of the incident, Heiser said. He is cooperating with police and told detectives in his initial interview that he lost his brakes coming down the hill.
In terms of commercial and moving violations, “the only thing we know for sure is that the dump truck went through a red light,” Heiser said." 

How fast is "too fast for conditions" if your brakes fail? Is the speed limit "too fast"? Is 10 miles an hour below the speed limit "too fast" for a heart attack? Could the driver have been answering his cell phone and simply not seen the intersection and the other vehicles? Heck, we have no idea what the speed limit even is since none of the articles mention it. A loaded dump truck traveling at 10 MPH is a lot of mass. If gravity is pulling it downhill and it has no braking capability then it might take more than 9 other cars to stop it. There are many possible causes that do not require a case of "too fast for conditions". Driver inattention being a big one, with the question of mechanical failure thrown in also. Again, I think you are a bit premature in your conclusions. 

I am sure that "Santa Rosa Police Sgt. Chad Heiser" will let us know once they figure it out. Since the media couldn't tell a real and factual story,  the only true fact that we have is that it was one hell of a mess.

[Pete Kildow]

45 minutes ago, Big5er said:

I never saw anything in any of the articles saying anything about THIS ACCIDENT and the driver hitting the emergency brake. I did see this:

Tom, 
a medical condition that causes someone to strike the vehicle ahead of them has nothing to do with speed. A catastrophic brake failure has nothing to do with speed. At 1 mile an hour, if you have a heart attack, or a complete brake failure you can hit another vehicle. Your "assumption" that speed was an issue may very well prove to be accurate, but again, until Chad presents some FACTS, your assumption is strictly speculation. A driver on his cell phone, and striking another vehicle has nothing to do with speed, other than the fact that his vehicle is moving.
 The dump truck entered the intersection and hit some cars. That is the only fact you have. One article says he "collided with a total of nine other vehicles". The second article says he struck an F-150 causing the F-150 to hit an Explorer (well there is one of the nine he might not have hit) and the 3rd article says the dump truck struck 5 other vehicles (4 of the 9 now that he didn't hit). Bases on these articles the only "facts" you have is that a dump truck ran a red light, hit some cars, and maybe not some others, and they caught fire. You also have the fact that all 3 articles tell different stories and the fact that the people who are investigating the crash (Chad and crew) said "The speed of the vehicle, the weight of the load in the truck and what led driver Francisco Alberto Rodriguez, 45, of Sunnyvale to lose control are still unknown, Heiser said.
Rodriguez had a valid commercial driver’s license, was not under the influence of drugs or alcohol and had only been working for a few hours at the time of the incident, Heiser said. He is cooperating with police and told detectives in his initial interview that he lost his brakes coming down the hill.
In terms of commercial and moving violations, “the only thing we know for sure is that the dump truck went through a red light,” Heiser said." 

How fast is "too fast for conditions" if your brakes fail? Is the speed limit "too fast"? Is 10 miles an hour below the speed limit "too fast" for a heart attack? Could the driver have been answering his cell phone and simply not seen the intersection and the other vehicles? Heck, we have no idea what the speed limit even is since none of the articles mention it. A loaded dump truck traveling at 10 MPH is a lot of mass. If gravity is pulling it downhill and it has no braking capability then it might take more than 9 other cars to stop it. There are many possible causes that do not require a case of "too fast for conditions". Driver inattention being a big one, with the question of mechanical failure thrown in also. Again, I think you are a bit premature in your conclusions. 

I am sure that "Santa Rosa Police Sgt. Chad Heiser" will let us know once they figure it out. Since the media couldn't tell a real and factual story,  the only true fact that we have is that it was one hell of a mess.

That may have been what I seen also.

Pete

[I'mdonewiththis forum]

Phil, I highly doubt that the driver had a heart attack since even you posted about his cooperation with the investigation team. As far as catastrophic brake failure, with an air brake system, can you explain how that would happen? My knowledge of air brakes is somewhat dated since it has been more than a few years since I drove for a living. The only way with spring brakes to have a failure that I know of is to heat them up to the point of fade. If you have a mechanical failure of a valve federal law states that there must be more that one way to apply brakes. That would be accomplished by pulling the yellow (or red) button. I fully comprehend that I am purely speculating, but where I used to live and drive even a 10% grade wasn't out of the realm of possibility and if you had a brake failure because of brake fade you were going too fast. Even at 5 mph if you heat the brakes to the point of failure you are going too fast for conditions.

[Nigel]

Mntom

Don’t forget there is a reason that checking brake adjustment is part of the pre trip as well.  Unless you check how do you know the automatic adjusters are working.

Nigel

[rickeieio]

Hmmm.  How many axles on said truck?  How many had spring brakes?  If he had a total of 4 axles, steer, two drivers, and an air tag, he likely had one with a spring break, two at most.  Even with a legal load, bad things can happen, especially on a hill.

[Big5er]

2 hours ago, Mntom said:

. The only way with spring brakes to have a failure that I know of is to heat them up to the point of fade.

Tom, how many moving parts are in a brake pedal? Do you know? Before you can answer that, you would need to know the make/model and year of the truck. Do you know that? How many bolts hold the pedal to the floor, or if mounted the other way, how many pins hold it onto the valve? Again, do you have this info? I understand that there is redundancy in the braking system but a pedal can break. It can separate itself from the pin that pushes the valve or the pin that holds it in place. Gee, guess what happens then? If the pedal doesn't push the valve, the brakes don't work. That redundant system doesn't work because there is no secondary pedal. If that happens then what? You push the pedal and it goes sideways. Catastrophic brake failure without losing any air pressure....and no fade. Yeah, the driver coulda, shoulda woulda...again you do not KNOW what happened so you can not say what "you" would have done next. But then what "you" would have done doesn't matter because "you" have no clue what happened and you weren't there. 

I have never said you are wrong Tom, just that you are too fast to condemn someone for a cause that you can not possibly KNOW.  There are too many possibilities for you to proclaim that he must have been going too fast or that the only other alternative is brake fade, which is an indicator (to you) that he was going to fast...unless you are some sort of psychic..or maybe you walk on water too? BTW, what condition were his brake shoes in? And exactly how fast was he going? Would you please address these questions for me?

Driver inattention is just as big an option that you seem to rule out "just because" you have proclaimed he "must" have been going too fast. By the way, how many crashes have you investigated? I sure hope (actually I already know) that Chad and his team of investigators search for some facts before just guessing and proclaiming that the driver "must" have been going to fast.

If I had to "guess" like you are I would lean more toward driver inattention. A few seconds dialing the cell and poof...Brake failure is too common a factor. Everyone's excuse is to blame the brakes, rather than admitting they were driving with their head up their ass. And speed is the unimaginative answer. At least I am willing to admit I am guessing. Of course my guess is based on 31 years on the job, being a certified accident investigator and reconstructionist for 25 of those years. I also have 10 years as a commercial vehicle inspector and I'm certified in post crash CMV inspection, but what do I know, right?

What I DO know is that you and I were not there. But I see people do exactly what you are doing on a daily basis. Starting rumors based on absolutely no real knowledge of any fact, other than vehicles hit each other. Damn I hope Chad has someone on his team with your clairvoyant skills. 

By the way, have you ever seen a truck going down the road with the spring brakes caged? I have. That sucker will still roll with absolutely no air in the tanks. I've seen them dragging a brake chamber too because the bracket rusted away. HEY!! That's it!! We solved it. I bet that dump truck was really going uphill, backwards. When the engine died, and with the brakes caged, gravity pulled him back down the hill going faster and faster. And since he had been going backwards up the hill it gave the illusion that he was really traveling downhill going forward. Hell I'm surprised he didn't jump out. When he reached the intersection he would have been going way "too fast for the conditions". (What speed is "too fast" to crash anyway?) The reason he was backing up the hill was because he was going up there to dump the load of trash he was hauling but didn't want anyone to know he was dumping illegally, right? Maybe we should call Chad and tell him his team can go home? Do you think we could get our names in the paper like he did? After all, we have it all figured out.

Oh well, back to reality. You can arm chair quarterback what you do not know all day. Someday the shoe will be on the other foot. I hope you enjoy it when it is your turn to be on the receiving end. I mean what the hell, why let something as silly as the facts get in the way, right?

 

[VegasFlyer]

Does anyone have a salt shaker?  Mine ran empty and popcorn isn’t very good without salt.....

[Big5er]

Kettle corn, John. All that salt is bad for your heart.