New project

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

The FullHouse units we toured had all the tanks, fresh, gray, and black located between the main entry door and the main compartment door. They are in front of the axles, but not by much. About the same set-up as your customer with the floater.

From what I can guestimate, DRV uses the same 44' frame for all their triple axle units. Overlaying pics of the FullHouse and other floorplans puts the axles in the same position on all units. I didn't pull a measuring tape on them, but they look close.

[Randyretired]

Swaying trailers scare me a lot. When we were moving years ago a friend offered to pull a flat bed trailer for us with a baler on it. He had a little Toyota PU. Anytime he went faster than 40 it would sway nearly out of control. We couldn't move the baler far enough forward to load the tongue. As it was going down the road from behind the 8' wide trailer hid the truck until one time it went out of control. The little PU would pop out one side then reappear on the other side. Luckily no one was near as it shot from one side of the hwy to the other. It was 2 lanes and he needed both lanes and the nearly both bar ditches before he got stopped. With our trucks the more tongue weight the better. Our old Teton tows good but given a choice I always load the tongue. Another problem is whenever there is to much weight beyond the axles. This overhang allows weight to get to bouncing. Our backhoe will easily bounce the front wheels off the ground and nearly get the back tires off the ground at speeds as low as 20 when it is bumpy. If I could order a 5er optioned the way I wanted I would load the toungue as heavy as possible. The longer wheel base does make it more difficult to manuver in tight locations but I would push it as much as I could. On 5ers and gooseneck trailers I like to see a minimum of 20% tongue weight and on bumper pull trailers at least 10%. The taller the trailer and the more overhang beyond the axle the more tongue weight is needed.

[Dollytrolley]

Dolly, what you describe from your younger days has been my environment all my life and no matter how clever you are somebody (or yourself) has to test and verify you assumptions. If you are good things are swell but sooner or later you discover that your creation was really an ass-umption. And if an old geezer prevented you from embarrassing yourself with an ass-umption, you should be grateful, I know I was in my youth.

Those of us who spent life time engineering know that if you initial design effort hits 90-95% when it comes of the drafting board (or computer screen these days) you are very good and if a junior new hire hits 50% on his first design try you say, "he's got potential". I haven't met a 100% guy yet.

What am I saying here. No newly designed product will be perfect, it will require tweaks or in our parlance ECO's (Engineering Change Orders). The number of these or the severity of these depend what kind of talent the company has on their engineering staff. Are they experienced, grumpy (and expensive) old geezers, or is it somebody's nephew, who is good remodeling houses, is taking on line engineering courses and needs a job. When I look at things It doesn't take me long to determine whether that company's product was designed by 95 percenters or 50 percenters.

What really makes me cranky when something that's obviously 50 percent (or worse-dangerous) gets into production. That says to me that the company producing it it doesn't have clue that they are producing crap, or worse are aware of it and are happy just making money bestowing crap on the unsuspecting public.

 

I learned about "the floaters" from DRV at the last Rally. After an extensive discussion with owner of one we struck an alliance that if I design something trying to help it, he would try it, he has an ET. Just from simple weight numbers he knows that he is light on the pin weight. He added as much weight as he could to the front compartment and it helped but he feels that he could use another 1,000 pound to make things kosher.

 

Now in the last day I learned something new from a reader of this thread who is ordering a 44 foot Houston from DRV. After a call to the District Manager and he calling DRV he got these numbers:

Dry weight 19,340 to 19,685, pin weight 2,965 to 3205.

 

Now let's see what that does in our weight and balance calculation.

On the light side, 19,340 vs. 2,965 it's 15.3%

On the "high" side, 19,685 vs. 3,205 it's 16.2%

 

Now in DRV's defense they list their rig at 23,000 pounds GVWR and most of their storage is on the forward side of the axles, so they are planning on around 3,500 pound of cargo. So if you could stuff ton and half in the front compartment you'll be in great shape with 28% percent of the GVWR on the pin. But, they also have 225 gallon capacity between the three tanks, that's 1,867 pounds of liquids which I'm assuming sit over the axles, don't help with the pin weight, but subtract from useful load. Just to get to 20% of GVWR the owner needs to plan on 1,000 pounds of cargo in the front compartment. The rig is coming with a generator so that's 200-300 pounds of "good weight" in the right spot. So you can see how sticky things can become on a rig with axles too far forward and light pin weight. I can only imagine "the fun" the ferry drivers will have delivering these rigs empty and in cross winds across country to dealers.

 

In four decades of RVing I have never heard a comprehensive discussion of weight and balance in fifth wheels from manufacturers, distributors or dealers. It's almost like it's a taboo and if you ask often you get either mush or double talk and a clear indication they don't have much to offer on the subject or are uncomfortable talking about it.

 

On edit:

If the pin weights get any lower I see an opportunity for a new product, ANTI SWAY BARS FOR FIFTHS. Maybe this could be my ticket to fame and fortune.

 

Ok you guys are killing me....... and the mom-n-law is getting a bit less crazy at times so...... I just keep getting a bit more crazy so here goes....

Remember the first rule of Wall Street ..........Liers number, and numbers can lie.......

ASSUME .....Dick Tracy was to digest the #27 post of this thread what would Dick do??.........Maybe dick would take the number "clues" that Henry let out of the bag and Dick started to ......"fiddle-around-with-the-clues".........

So ASSUME that the DRV 44 Huston weighs 19.340 lb empty gross and the pin weight empty = 2,965 lbs. or 15.33 % of measured total trailer wt.

So ASSUME that 1/2 value of 44 feet is 22 feet

So ASSUME that IF the trailer were a even distributed mass that the 22 ft (264 Inches) point were the center of mass (Balance point)

So ASSUME that if Dick were to move the trailer avg, axle point 15.33% back (40 inches) of the 264 center point that now the new axle location would be 304 inches aft of the hitch pin and now the hitch pin would displace 2,965 Lbs.

So ASSUME the main 120 gal fresh water tank is 250 inches aft of pin, the aux 40 gal fresh water tank is 180 inches aft of pin, the 60 gal black water tank is 160 inches aft of pin, the 40 gal grey water tank is 130 inches aft of pin and Two 40 lb propane tanks are 96 inches aft of pin . Now fill ALL of the tanks AND then ADD 1,216 lbs at the cargo bay 120 inches aft of the pin.

So what is our ASSUMED Weight & Balance for the above trailer and loading.........drum roll please.....

 

Trailer total weight = 23,000 Lbs

Hitch pin weight = 4,613 Lbs (20.06% of total trailer weight)

Weight distributed among trailer axles (likely uneven to wheel positions)= 18,387 lbs

 

So now ASSUME that Dick Tracy were to load his Harley Hog Bike in the toy hauler garage at 1,100 lbs 460 inches aft of the pin and then reduced the 1,216 lbs of cargo at 120 inches aft of pin down to 115 lbs total cargo weight...........so what would the new loading numbers look like??

Trailer total weight = 22,999 Lbs

Hitch pin weight = 3,382 Lbs (14.71% of total trailer weight)

Weight distributed among trailer axles (likely uneven to wheel positions)= 19,617 lbs

 

So.......ASSUME that with the above numbers you still have not put any Dr. Pepper in the fridge so what-ya-gonna-tell-tha-DOT-guy when he pulls your over for swerving......

All kidding aside it's would be vital to get the real trailer numbers and the tank locations defined to refine to numbers in the mean time it might be best put the Harley up on the master bed before you head out on a trip........

 

Drive on.......(Looking for better …..numbers)

 

 

 

[phoenix2013]

in the meantime we are ruminating over some numbers and graphs in southern Florida.

 

 

bmzero spotted an Eibach product early on in this thread, he's a clever feller that bmzero.

 

On the flip side, did you notice that no respectable (or sane) pull trailer owner would go down the road without one of these.

 

It is a well recognized fact that pull trailers with their tongue weight vs, GVWR being at 10% at the most sway like crazy unless some gizmo is incorporated into the hitch to dampen it. This well know fact seems to be "escaping" fifth wheel makers. Like I said, there might be money in it.

[Dollytrolley]

in the meantime we are ruminating over some numbers and graphs in southern Florida.

 

 

bmzero spotted an Eibach product early on in this thread, he's a clever feller that bmzero.

 

On the flip side, did you notice that no respectable (or sane) pull trailer owner would go down the road without one of these.

 

It is a well recognized fact that pull trailers with their tongue weight vs, GVWR being at 10% at the most sway like crazy unless some gizmo is incorporated into the hitch to dampen it. This well know fact seems to be "escaping" fifth wheel makers. Like I said, there might be money in it.

 

In my last real work gig I got roped into managing a small Tug, Barge, Crane outfit for a NW Indian tribe for a couple of years......some days I knew exactly how Custer must have felt on the day of the Last Stand ........

 

One brutal windy cold (-5f / 60 mph wind....wind chill of Liq N.) and one of my best Indians was to bring in one of our Navy Surplus 27 ft Peterson Fast Patrol / Tow boats off the Columbia River at McNary Dam........I arrived at the boat ramp and the 3 to 4 foot white caps were freezing spray on the bow of the boat and the boat trailer and Bill the Indian expertly surfed a whitecap onto the trailer and I hobbed a line onto the bow bit and started pulling the rig up the sheet ice boat ramp. Bill remained in the boat until I stopped the rig up on the level gravel parking lot then he crawled out a lit a cigarette and looked at the "junk" that still needed to be attached to the "Load-Distribution-Anti-Sway-Hitch that was encrusted in 2 inches of HARD CLEAR ICE..........Bill drew in a drag of smoke and then grinned and said....."Hey great white father.......how about I just crawl under this trailer and just move the three axles back a couple feet......it will take less time and effort than dinking around with this phony contraption"...........W I S E N A T I V E........

 

When ever I see a retired geezer putting one of these "hitches" together and then putting the cheater bar on the chain snuggers I wince and hope the old geezer does not get wacked along side the head with the pipe......

 

Like the wise Indian said........."oh great white father......might be better to move the axles back some"......

 

Drive on.........(Do I have all of my hitch.....parts)

[jkennell]

Sway bars for 5ths... Hmm. I do have to say the most effective "sway bar" I ever saw was a 2" ratchet strap run from 1 corner of the chisel frame to the truck hitch. (If you guys think trailers sway bad, you should try towing some farm machinery...) I asked the guy how he planned to turn---the answer was I only turn left...and 3 lefts make a right. Okkkkayyy. It did work great though--0 sway at 70 mph. I say that real tongue in cheek--and I don't think a 5r set up right with the right HDT should ever need it, but purely as an engineering idea....

there might be some possibilities in using a technology like high stretch/high tension kevlar/nylon/whatever to provide a sway reduction approach. Bars out 2' on each side of the pinbox, with tensioned straps angling in and forward. Hate to have one snap...

 

Worst case of sway I ever saw was a 16' trailer with a lawn mower and a concrete lawn roller on it. The roller was at the back of the trailer---my guess is the pin load was -20%. He was only going 45--and the trailer started to whip a little, then spun the whole LDT around 180 right in the middle of a bridge. Lawn roller snapped the chain and frame and went over the side so fast all I saw from the car behind was the splash. 30 seconds after he stopped and got the truck pulled off the road the semi comes around the bend onto the bridge...

[GeorgiaHybrid]

Have you run it across a scale to verify your assumption?

 

Not fully loaded, we were at just over 20K. I plan on getting each wheel weighed at the ECR to see how some "redistribution" in the basement has done. If the full house (which is based on the RSSA) has a tank layout like ours, the tank are well forward of the axles but ours is not a triple axle so they might have shifted them around some.

[Dollytrolley]

Interesting, We want...would like the LX FullHouse as well. Interesting to know about the weight balance issue. we were going to put a Smart in the garage, 1800lb. I wonder how much worse that would make the tail wag.

 

Jim,

 

If I were to take my ASSUMED trailer from my post #54 of this thread and reconfigure the loading for your Smart car we might ASSUME the following......

 

Load #1:

Remove all cargo at 120" station

Drain fresh water tank down to 416 lbs at station 250"

Load 1,800 lb Smart car at station 460"

 

Results load #1

Pin load = 2,850 lb / 12.39% (Darn low value)

Total axle loads= 20,150lbs (in a perfect world each of the six tires would carry 3,358 lbs each, Trey will likely tell you that the world is not perfect and so its likely that a couple of the tires may carry 3,800 lbs or MORE.....NOT GOOD)

 

So load #1 was pretty bad so.........maybe try another set of loads.......

 

Load #2:

Drain ALL tanks except leave 3 gallons of water in the aux fresh water tank.

ADD 1,416 total load to cargo bay at station 120" (try 34 five gallon totes of water to replace the drained water at station 250")

Load Smart car 1,800 lbs at station 460"

 

Results load #2

Pin load = 3,304 lbs. / 14.37 % (Slightly better than load # 1 but Not good )

Total axle loads= 19,696lbs (in a perfect world each of the six tires would carry 3,283 lbs each, Trey will likely tell you that the world is not perfect and so its likely that a couple of the tires may carry 3,800 lbs or MORE.....NOT GOOD)

 

It's hard to put much lipstick on this pig ............no matter what, it still swerves like a .......pig...

 

Now of course the base trailer numbers are not actual measured load locations so in real life the actual trailer axle and load center locations will likely be different than my ASSUMED locations utilized in these examples but the fact remains that trying to make a BIG fifth trailer pin weights low enough for pickup towing is a very dicey game to play......

 

Drive on.........(Swerve.........slowly)

[rickeieio]

Worst case of sway I ever saw was a 16' trailer with a lawn mower and a concrete lawn roller on it. The roller was at the back of the trailer---my guess is the pin load was -20%. He was only going 45--and the trailer started to whip a little, then spun the whole LDT around 180 right in the middle of a bridge. Lawn roller snapped the chain and frame and went over the side so fast all I saw from the car behind was the splash. 30 seconds after he stopped and got the truck pulled off the road the semi comes around the bend onto the bridge...

A long time ago, my cousin borrowed an irrigation system from me. He (over) loaded his 20' flat deck-over with 40' aluminum pipe. The overhang was........a bunch. Then he hooked it to his beefed up, over engined, CJ-5 and proceeded down the highway.

Can you say "jack knife?" Fortunately, the negative hitch weight removed enough traction the it just slid him along until everything stopped, rather than doing a "tuck and roll."

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

 

Jim,

 

If I were to take my ASSUMED trailer from my post #54 of this thread and reconfigure the loading for your Smart car we might ASSUME the following......

 

Load #1:

Remove all cargo at 120" station

Drain fresh water tank down to 416 lbs at station 250"

Load 1,800 lb Smart car at station 460"

 

Results load #1

Pin load = 2,850 lb / 12.39% (Darn low value)

Total axle loads= 20,150lbs (in a perfect world each of the six tires would carry 3,358 lbs each, Trey will likely tell you that the world is not perfect and so its likely that a couple of the tires may carry 3,800 lbs or MORE.....NOT GOOD)

 

So load #1 was pretty bad so.........maybe try another set of loads.......

 

Load #2:

Drain ALL tanks except leave 3 gallons of water in the aux fresh water tank.

ADD 1,416 total load to cargo bay at station 120" (try 34 five gallon totes of water to replace the drained water at station 250")

Load Smart car 1,800 lbs at station 460"

 

Results load #2

Pin load = 3,304 lbs. / 14.37 % (Slightly better than load # 1 but Not good )

Total axle loads= 19,696lbs (in a perfect world each of the six tires would carry 3,283 lbs each, Trey will likely tell you that the world is not perfect and so its likely that a couple of the tires may carry 3,800 lbs or MORE.....NOT GOOD)

 

It's hard to put much lipstick on this pig ............no matter what, it still swerves like a .......pig...

 

Now of course the base trailer numbers are not actual measured load locations so in real life the actual trailer axle and load center locations will likely be different than my ASSUMED locations utilized in these examples but the fact remains that trying to make a BIG fifth trailer pin weights low enough for pickup towing is a very dicey game to play......

 

Drive on.........(Swerve.........slowly)

 

Dolly-

Some known weights on the FullHouse

100gl freshwater

75 gray

50 black

 

Gray and Black are stacked inside the frame and above it just in front of the door- position 250

Fresh water sits right behind them just about at the mid position

5kw Onan sits in the very front bay along with 4 6volt batteries

2-40gl propane

Residential fridge sits over front axle

Dual 30gl fuel tanks from the 420" extending towards the rear

 

Now add the Smart Car or RZR....

 

Enjoy

[Dollytrolley]

 

Dolly-

Some known weights on the FullHouse

100gl freshwater

75 gray

50 black

 

Gray and Black are stacked inside the frame and above it just in front of the door- position 250

Fresh water sits right behind them just about at the mid position

5kw Onan sits in the very front bay along with 4 6volt batteries

2-40gl propane

Residential fridge sits over front axle

Dual 30gl fuel tanks from the 420" extending towards the rear

 

Now add the Smart Car or RZR....

 

Enjoy

Jim,

 

To really get started on calculating a detailed truck and / or trailer weight & balance I need a few baseline details to get the ball rolling.......

 

I need the actual weight of the empty trailer wit both total axle weights and the pin weight ( I do not need any of the installed equipment like fridge, gen. or batteries these items are already installed and accounted for in the empty weight of the trailer).

 

Next I need the distance from the hitch pin to the center of the axle group (Center axle of a triple axle rig or the center between the axles of a tandem rig).

 

Next I need the distance from the hitch pin to the center of each liquid tank (Fresh, Grey, Black, Gasoline, Propane) and each tank capacity in gallons.

 

Final items need are the distance from the hitch pin to the center of each cargo space.

 

Once I have these "Baseline-Details" then I can calculate various load combos just by changing the weight values at the various Tanks and Cargo bay locations and whatever vehicles or toys loaded in the toy hauler garage.

 

If you want you could email these items to my email at mmcdan3189@aol.com

 

If you want to fiddle with the loads on the forum thats fine as well .....your choice.

 

Drive on.........(Lets see..... where is the grey tank in this .......rig)

[phoenix2013]

OK boys, progress report!

 

The design is done, time to waterjet some steel parts, put together some prototypes and install these on the "floater".

I want to try two different snubbers with different response characteristics.

 

 

 

The longer one would pre-compress 1.58 inches,

 

 

which looking at the graph would create about 400 pounds of preload on the hitch simulating 400 pounds of hitch weight that isn't there. It would be interesting to see what effect it would have.

 

The other wouldn't create much preload but it also has much sharper response once you get into it. I like my designs to have "options", I ordered both sets of bumps.

 

 

 

Got little more detail work left on the bump retention, waiting on some samples. It will be clever, you guys might be impressed.

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

Over on other forums, there have been ongoing discussions about the classic question "What truck do I need to tow this 22000k trailer?" There are several folks that always respond saying that their new Rams and Fords have no issues pulling AND stopping these trailers.

My question is.

With the low % pin weights of these triple axle RV's, do the smaller trucks with solid mount hitches- B&W seems to be the popular choice- not feel the trailer sway, or the floating?

Has no one had an issue since with a solid mount hitch the upward pull of the pin has to lift the truck? Or does the HDT crowd with the air hitchs see and hear it better? Not necessarily feel the movement until the trailer sways violently?

Those topics on the other forums always end up with the HDT crowd getting bashed because we're towing with overkill trucks that the smaller 3500 class trucks can now tow.

[Jack Mayer]

Many in the HDT crowd are as biased as the light truck crowd. To some, once they have the "religion" there is no other answer - while the truth is there are a continuum of "answers" that perform well until you get out to the edge conditions. For hauling, the "edge condition" is typically weight. But the light trucks now handle a "reasonable" amount of weight pretty competently.

 

My personal perspective is that for weights up into the 21-22K area the light trucks like a Dodge 5500 handle that pretty well. You simply don't need an HDT (or MDT) to handle the WEIGHT...but you might want one for other reasons (comfort, a smart, a mini-motorhome, etc).

[phoenix2013]

I must be fickle, I had three religions. For thirty years and three pickups I was a pickup missionary, for 8 years I was a MDT priest, now I have attained a rank of cardinal in the HDT crowd.

[GlennWest]

I towed our Teton with a Chevy 3500 dually. It handled it just fine. Towed sweet, no sway. If it was a perfectly smooth road it was a comfortable tow. The brakes were surprisingly adequate even when I towed a short distance without trailer brakes. My suspension was bottomed out and added air bags. It relaxed the overloaded springs but stiffened the ride. Also the older I get the more the dually as a daily commute to our parking lots at work wore on me. Sometimes I could not get out of parking spot until one side of me left. After working 12 hours this is a bummer. Now the Dodge with rear air suspension might compensate for this. But they are a lot of monies and the HDT financially looks less. Also huge comfort plus and safety. Can park the Smart anywhere. Asked this again in a year or so and I can say if this is truly the answer.

[noteven]

...

[phoenix2013]

The shorter bumps arrived today (it's the one in the center).

 

 

Now I can finish the design of the mount for the smaller one, turn over the drawing to the shop for a bit of laser cutting.

 

The general thinking (as of today, things could change) is to incorporate the mild bumps in all ETs and then offer the "super duper" one as an "option" for those who had a misfortune of acquiring a "floater".

[Jack Mayer]

OK, so when do I retrofit?

[GeorgiaHybrid]

When are you planning to incorporate the changes to ET's in the pipeline? Just wondering because I have one in the lineup now.

[phoenix2013]

I would say it will be few months, I want to get some tests results first etc. These will be easily retrofitable, since the new system will essentially replace the current stop plates with the oversize ones with the bumps built into these.

 

 

Two bolts, off and on.

 

Jack, you are pretty heavy, I don't think you need it, but it would be one of these things that would "do no harm". And it might be interesting to see how these things interact with the "heavies".

[Larry&Donna-AK]

Hoping I'll be the first with the new improvement.

[phoenix2013]

Hoping I'll be the first with the new improvement.

 

We'll do our best (for the DRV folks)

[Jack Mayer]

 

Jack, you are pretty heavy, I don't think you need it, but it would be one of these things that would "do no harm". And it might be interesting to see how these things interact with the "heavies".

That was my thought. I know I don't need a preload, cause I have no bounce....

 

At all.

[phoenix2013]

Jack, just heard from Marc, he's got a trip scheduled for early April and will run the tests, so things are falling in place.