New project

[phoenix2013]

Dolly, what you describe from your younger days has been my environment all my life and no matter how clever you are somebody (or yourself) has to test and verify you assumptions. If you are good things are swell but sooner or later you discover that your creation was really an ass-umption. And if an old geezer prevented you from embarrassing yourself with an ass-umption, you should be grateful, I know I was in my youth.

Those of us who spent life time engineering know that if you initial design effort hits 90-95% when it comes of the drafting board (or computer screen these days) you are very good and if a junior new hire hits 50% on his first design try you say, "he's got potential". I haven't met a 100% guy yet.

What am I saying here. No newly designed product will be perfect, it will require tweaks or in our parlance ECO's (Engineering Change Orders). The number of these or the severity of these depend what kind of talent the company has on their engineering staff. Are they experienced, grumpy (and expensive) old geezers, or is it somebody's nephew, who is good remodeling houses, is taking on line engineering courses and needs a job. When I look at things It doesn't take me long to determine whether that company's product was designed by 95 percenters or 50 percenters.

What really makes me cranky when something that's obviously 50 percent (or worse-dangerous) gets into production. That says to me that the company producing it it doesn't have clue that they are producing crap, or worse are aware of it and are happy just making money bestowing crap on the unsuspecting public.

 

I learned about "the floaters" from DRV at the last Rally. After an extensive discussion with owner of one we struck an alliance that if I design something trying to help it, he would try it, he has an ET. Just from simple weight numbers he knows that he is light on the pin weight. He added as much weight as he could to the front compartment and it helped but he feels that he could use another 1,000 pound to make things kosher.

 

Now in the last day I learned something new from a reader of this thread who is ordering a 44 foot Houston from DRV. After a call to the District Manager and he calling DRV he got these numbers:

Dry weight 19,340 to 19,685, pin weight 2,965 to 3205.

 

Now let's see what that does in our weight and balance calculation.

On the light side, 19,340 vs. 2,965 it's 15.3%

On the "high" side, 19,685 vs. 3,205 it's 16.2%

 

Now in DRV's defense they list their rig at 23,000 pounds GVWR and most of their storage is on the forward side of the axles, so they are planning on around 3,500 pound of cargo. So if you could stuff ton and half in the front compartment you'll be in great shape with 28% percent of the GVWR on the pin. But, they also have 225 gallon capacity between the three tanks, that's 1,867 pounds of liquids which I'm assuming sit over the axles, don't help with the pin weight, but subtract from useful load. Just to get to 20% of GVWR the owner needs to plan on 1,000 pounds of cargo in the front compartment. The rig is coming with a generator so that's 200-300 pounds of "good weight" in the right spot. So you can see how sticky things can become on a rig with axles too far forward and light pin weight. I can only imagine "the fun" the ferry drivers will have delivering these rigs empty and in cross winds across country to dealers.

 

In four decades of RVing I have never heard a comprehensive discussion of weight and balance in fifth wheels from manufacturers, distributors or dealers. It's almost like it's a taboo and if you ask often you get either mush or double talk and a clear indication they don't have much to offer on the subject or are uncomfortable talking about it.

 

On edit:

If the pin weights get any lower I see an opportunity for a new product, ANTI SWAY BARS FOR FIFTHS. Maybe this could be my ticket to fame and fortune.

[noteven]

edit.

[Dollytrolley]

Dolly,

That spreadsheet you built is pretty darn good, though I haven't had much time with it as they've had me in the desert and Alabama for the last month. I think there's a lot to be said for an anti-roll bar in a 5er as well as consideration of the polar moment where sway is an issue. Up front, you've got tire, air suspension and hitch air in the "Z". No roll damping up front.

Ford I see has semi-active suspension now. Hmmm, cheap active suspension... can you smell the wood burning?

 

Steve,

 

Seems like you and Henry just might get a fire going with all that wood smoke you are smelling.......

 

So does that mean you have a pocket full of solid state 3D gyros that the 'kids" in your office already have pre-wired to the active-null-steer active actuators on the trailer axles.....at the first cue of Y axis AND ROLL axis displacement the active anti-sway would null the sway before it starts.........imagine leaving a half-full Dr Pepper on the kitchen counter and have it still there in 200 miles of Hyw.99 in Ca.

 

The spredsheet is simply a pair of plane-jane-generic-aircraft-wt&Bal-spreadsheets that has the trailer active loading the truck hitch that then simply auto-calculates the truck weight and balance...........kind of like real life.....

 

Drive on.........(were there is smoke.......is there fire?)

 

 

 

Dolly, what you describe from your younger days has been my environment all my life and no matter how clever you are somebody (or yourself) has to test and verify you assumptions. If you are good things are swell but sooner or later you discover that your creation was really an ass-umption. And if an old geezer prevented you from embarrassing yourself with an ass-umption, you should be grateful, I know I was in my youth.

Those of us who spent life time engineering know that if you initial design effort hits 90-95% when it comes of the drafting board (or computer screen these days) you are very good and if a junior new hire hits 50% on his first design try you say, "he's got potential". I haven't met a 100% guy yet.

What am I saying here. No newly designed product will be perfect, it will require tweaks or in our parlance ECO's (Engineering Change Orders). The number of these or the severity of these depend what kind of talent the company has on their engineering staff. Are they experienced, grumpy (and expensive) old geezers, or is it somebody's nephew, who is good remodeling houses, is taking on line engineering courses and needs a job. When I look at things It doesn't take me long to determine whether that company's product was designed by 95 percenters or 50 percenters.

What really makes me cranky when something that's obviously 50 percent (or worse-dangerous) gets into production. That says to me that the company producing it it doesn't have clue that they are producing crap, or worse are aware of it and are happy just making money bestowing crap on the unsuspecting public.

 

I learned about "the floaters" from DRV at the last Rally. After an extensive discussion with owner of one we struck an alliance that if I design something trying to help it, he would try it, he has an ET. Just from simple weight numbers he knows that he is light on the pin weight. He added as much weight as he could to the front compartment and it helped but he feels that he could use another 1,000 pound to make things kosher.

 

Now in the last day I learned something new from a reader of this thread who is ordering a 44 foot Houston from DRV. After a call to the District Manager and he calling DRV he got these numbers:

Dry weight 19,340 to 19,685, pin weight 2,965 to 3205.

 

Now let's see what that does in our weight and balance calculation.

On the light side, 19,340 vs. 2,965 it's 15.3%

On the "high" side, 19,685 vs. 3,205 it's 16.2%

 

Now in DRV's defense they list their rig at 23,000 pounds GVWR and most of their storage is on the forward side of the axles, so they are planning on around 3,500 pound of cargo. So if you could stuff ton and half in the front compartment you'll be in great shape with 28% percent of the GVWR on the pin. But, they also have 225 gallon capacity between the three tanks, that's 1,867 pounds of liquids which I'm assuming sit over the axles, don't help with the pin weight, but subtract from useful load. Just to get to 20% of GVWR the owner needs to plan on 1,000 pounds of cargo in the front compartment. The rig is coming with a generator so that's 200-300 pounds of "good weight" in the right spot. So you can see how sticky things can become on a rig with axles too far forward and light pin weight. I can only imagine "the fun" the ferry drivers will have delivering these rigs empty and in cross winds across country to dealers.

 

In four decades of RVing I have never heard a comprehensive discussion of weight and balance in fifth wheels from manufacturers, distributors or dealers. It's almost like it's a taboo and if you ask often you get either mush or double talk and a clear indication they don't have much to offer on the subject or are uncomfortable talking about it.

 

On edit:

If the pin weights get any lower I see an opportunity for a new product, ANTI SWAY BARS FOR FIFTHS. Maybe this could be my ticket to fame and fortune.

 

 

 

Shucks Henry .........IF you were any more famous Trump and Hillery would not have a chance for a new job.........

 

As far a fortune goes after you have had a Stinson Henry every other rig is just another step lower.........now that was the crowning definition of a stable yet very light and responsive set of controls..........those slotted leading edges gave crisp rolls at 50kts any day of the week......in well over another +100 aircraft models I have yet to ever find a better set of controls.......

 

I have no idea what the layout of the "problem 5th trailer" you are working on so I have no idea what mass-adjustments might be made but my spreadsheet is VERY easy to change mass-arms to any location you desire and as soon as you change any station or weight cell the entire truck and trailer are updated live so you obtain a real time results of the changes you have made.

 

If you want to fiddle with the spreadsheet just email me at: mmcdan3189@aol.com and I will send you the spreadsheet via email.

 

Drive on..........(To fame and new ........knees)

[orca]

What a timely thread! I just drove my first trip with my 45' DRV Fullhouse. I was kind of worried about pin weight with 1100# of motorcycles in the garage so i stuffed the front storage bay with as much weight as i could, rather than pack it away distributed throughout the coach. Well that was not enough cause the tail was wagging the dog! I can't imagine how bad it would have been if i had a smaller truck. If DRV had placed the axles closer to the rear, the trailer would be much safer to pull but they would likely loose sales because the heaver pin weight would eliminate lighter trucks. Now that i am in warmer weather i will fill the fresh and gray tanks before the next move and see if that helps.

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

Interesting, We want...would like the LX FullHouse as well. Interesting to know about the weight balance issue. we were going to put a Smart in the garage, 1800lb. I wonder how much worse that would make the tail wag.

[Dollytrolley]

What a timely thread! I just drove my first trip with my 45' DRV Fullhouse. I was kind of worried about pin weight with 1100# of motorcycles in the garage so i stuffed the front storage bay with as much weight as i could, rather than pack it away distributed throughout the coach. Well that was not enough cause the tail was wagging the dog! I can't imagine how bad it would have been if i had a smaller truck. If DRV had placed the axles closer to the rear, the trailer would be much safer to pull but they would likely loose sales because the heaver pin weight would eliminate lighter trucks. Now that i am in warmer weather i will fill the fresh and gray tanks before the next move and see if that helps.

 

Interesting, We want...would like the LX FullHouse as well. Interesting to know about the weight balance issue. we were going to put a Smart in the garage, 1800lb. I wonder how much worse that would make the tail wag.

OrCa & Jim

 

Shoot me a email and I will send via email the live data spreadsheet that will answer your loading and both truck and trailer axle weights and hitch pin weight in pounds as well as % of total trailer weight all live data updated as you enter your data.

 

My email is: mmcdan3189@aol.com

 

Drive on...........(Wag less.....)

[phoenix2013]

I have heard of only one sales outfit, Lazy Days, that would tell a customer that "you cannot pull this fifth with your pickup, you need a bigger truck". And that's only anecdotal, I didn't hear that said personally. I seriously doubt that such honesty is wide spread in the RV industry.

 

It's all about the actual or projected pin weighs, once that is known the rest can be easily calculated. I have a feeling that all of a sudden DRV might get a rash of inquiries about their pin weights and realize that their "gig is up".

[mscans]

Knee surgery was postponed to April 19th, gimping using the walker, feeling useless, figured will get this done. Put the initial parts in CAD.

 

 

Let the guessing begin. Mark and Gregg you have an unfair advantage, let others have fun.

No, it is not an implement one obtains in certain establishments with opaque windows and semi parkings in the back.

earplug???

[JPL]

More Fuel for the smoking fire. We bought a 2015 43'(actually 43'2" bow to stern) Mesa Ridge built by Highland Ridge last July. We've had it underway 8 times but never father than 90 miles. We will be going to the ECR. When I crawled under the 5er to check the under carriage I noticed it didn't have any shocks. Did they forget? No they said me when I called and asked. They told me it didn't need them. What if I add them? It will void the warranty they said. What if I add disk brakes. If you don't buy them from us that voids the warranty. Lippert. Well I guess when the rubber hits the road I'll find out how it really tows. I don't know pin weight but i'll get it weighted when we pull into Deer Run. Hope it hasn't beat itself to death by then. We'll be coming from Chesapeake Va. So if you see a red Volvo and a beat up 5er you'll know what happened. I haven't really noticed anything bad IRT towing on the short trips we've made so far. Hope it stays that way. Pat

 

 

The Old Sailor

[Star Dreamer]

So maybe I missed it all the discussions above but I did not see anything that states what the range for pin weight should be and if it varies based on number of axles and/ or location of axles. The info from the CDL quote just says that improper balance between tractor drives and trailer tandems is not good and another bullet says too much weight toward rear of trailer is not good but does not give you a way to calculate what is not good.

 

We have seen it mentioned that 5th wheel pin weights could be between 15% and 20% and in other areas between 15% and 25%.

 

We have pulled our trailer over 100k miles since buying it 8 years ago and we never have had a swaying issue but I do keep speed down to 65 mph most of the time. I think it could be the triple axle helping there and maybe a reason to stay triple with our new trailer we are designing as I had been pushing to try to go tandem to help take better care of tires in tight corners.

 

I wonder too if a high center of gravity could attribute to the swaying problem along with the type of trailer suspension. Our trailer sits very low compared to most 5th wheel camping style trailers and we have torsion springs in lieu of leaf springs or air ride on the trailer.

 

We unfortunately cannot move any more weight forward which doesn't add more weight to the total trailer which is already at maximum weight. We have been trying to pull weight out of the rear cargo area and move it to the truck but based on my calculations we will not be able to get any where near 25% pin weight.

 

I am following this topic so we can design the appropriate balance into the new trailer design.

Dave

[GlennWest]

We have a heavy pin. 6k with 21k Teton. Tows sweet. Too much for ldt

[Dollytrolley]

While a trailer that swerves is embarrassing to operate that is the least of the evils of such a beast.

 

If you take a moment to focus out and consider the physics of what the Oscillatory mode of the swerve entails the condition raises to a level of seriousness that corrective action should be made ASAP.

 

In a nutshell what we have is a large mass that tends to become unstable at speeds below our normal speed envelope and as the unstable forces build up these forces exceed the constraining forces of stability and then once the trailer (mass) starts to become divergent it tends to stay divergent until constraining forces of stability exceed the unstable forces and at that point the stability forces change the swerve in a corrective direction and once again restorative forces push the swerve to centerline of the swerve wave however the accelerated mass of the trailer carries pass the center of stability to actually feed the instability of the other side of the swerve wave and then the other side of the restorative forces have to once again stop the trailer mass and the process starts all over again, and again, and again.

 

So whats the downside(s) to this swerve condition...........many and anyone these "downsides" can get ugly fast......perhaps the most obvious bad juju is the swerve that has instability forces that exceed the restorative forces and this results in a Jackknife and or overturn of the trailer and or truck. Of course a Jackknife is likely the start of a bad day but often a jackknife is precluded by a "event" that triggers to swerve to become divergent and quickly exceed the normal restorative forces of stability. A couple of examples of "divergent-triggers" would be blown tire (truck or trailer) or a suspension component failure on the trailer.

 

As we all know RV tires and suspensions tend to be loaded near the max much of the time and the quality of the components tend to be very low and as such the margins of safety are pretty thin.

 

A RV that swerves much at all is really hammering components that really have a poor history of withstanding much abuse.

 

A RV that is swerving is just a vehicle that has yet to arrive at it's breakdown point yet.

 

Big trucks have a lot of advantages to help deal with the swerve conditions however once a truck / trailer becomes divergent the heavy truck just becomes a larger mass out of control............very BAD JuJu.......

 

These trailers need to have the swerve conditions mitigated.......soon.

 

Drive on..........(Stay......stable)

[phoenix2013]

What a timely thread! I just drove my first trip with my 45' DRV Fullhouse. I was kind of worried about pin weight with 1100# of motorcycles in the garage so i stuffed the front storage bay with as much weight as i could, rather than pack it away distributed throughout the coach. Well that was not enough cause the tail was wagging the dog! I can't imagine how bad it would have been if i had a smaller truck. If DRV had placed the axles closer to the rear, the trailer would be much safer to pull but they would likely loose sales because the heaver pin weight would eliminate lighter trucks. Now that i am in warmer weather i will fill the fresh and gray tanks before the next move and see if that helps.

 

What a timely response, apparently you have a "floater" too. I would suggest few things so you can get a fuller picture of why your rig and your setup behaves the way it behaves. Having a truck stop with commercial CAT scales nearby is invaluable. I would weight your complete rig hooked up with motorcycles on board and tanks empty to see what the three axles are in what you would consider your standard configuration. Next I would unhook the truck and weigh it.

Subtracting the unloaded truck rear axle from loaded truck axle should tell you what you pin weight is in this configuration. Adding that pin weight to the trailer axles weight will tell you what your fifth weighs in that configuration. Next unload the motorcycles to see what effect they have on the pin weight. I would suspect that the trailer axles weight would go down by 1100 pounds and the pin weight will go up but it would be somewhat less than 1100 pounds.

I know that most of us "veterans" travel with empty tanks but it might be interesting to see what effect these have on the rig's weight. Most manufacturers place the tanks over the axles (it's a lot of weight) so most likely you will see increase in the trailer axle weight but no change in the pin weight. But I have seen fifths where tanks were placed in other areas also, particularly on rigs with multiple bathrooms or bedrooms. Incidentally, water weighs 8.34 pounds per gallon and it doesn't matter on its "quality" (fresh, grey or black). If filling the tanks does not have any effect on the pin weight then obviously that is not helpful.

It would be interesting to everybody to see what you find out.

[phoenix2013]

We have a heavy pin. 6k with 21k Teton. Tows sweet. Too much for ldt

 

Glen, my Royals International is 22,500 loaded and pin weight is 6,500 lbs. I'm at 28.8% of GVWR on the pin, life is good.

[phoenix2013]

So maybe I missed it all the discussions above but I did not see anything that states what the range for pin weight should be and if it varies based on number of axles and/ or location of axles. The info from the CDL quote just says that improper balance between tractor drives and trailer tandems is not good and another bullet says too much weight toward rear of trailer is not good but does not give you a way to calculate what is not good.

 

We have seen it mentioned that 5th wheel pin weights could be between 15% and 20% and in other areas between 15% and 25%.

 

We have pulled our trailer over 100k miles since buying it 8 years ago and we never have had a swaying issue but I do keep speed down to 65 mph most of the time. I think it could be the triple axle helping there and maybe a reason to stay triple with our new trailer we are designing as I had been pushing to try to go tandem to help take better care of tires in tight corners.

 

I wonder too if a high center of gravity could attribute to the swaying problem along with the type of trailer suspension. Our trailer sits very low compared to most 5th wheel camping style trailers and we have torsion springs in lieu of leaf springs or air ride on the trailer.

 

We unfortunately cannot move any more weight forward which doesn't add more weight to the total trailer which is already at maximum weight. We have been trying to pull weight out of the rear cargo area and move it to the truck but based on my calculations we will not be able to get any where near 25% pin weight.

 

I am following this topic so we can design the appropriate balance into the new trailer design.

Dave

 

Dave, lots of factors determine when rig will become unstable and starts swaying (pin weight, trailer weight, truck weight, truck wheelbase, trailer wheel base, etc.) so you can get away with something on one rig and not another and I've heard all these numbers too. So far I know of only one incident where the swaying got so bad that the individual almost lost it all and that was on a rig where the pin weight was offloaded (by a huge load in the toyhauler garage) down to 16.7% of the GVWR. So I would be wary of anything below 20% of the GVWR. As you can see (above) I am at 28.8% and I have never felt any indication of swaying in crosswinds or quick maneuvers that I had to do on few occasions.

So I would venture that this is a situation where "more is better", which is not a problem in our domain, where we have more than capable trucks, but not so for the pickup crowd.

[Jim & Wilma]

In a nutshell . . . .

Dolly, that was a heck of a "nutshell" but I stayed with you the whole way . . . . without even taking a breath!

 

Trey, Does RVSEF offer any guidance on ratio of pin weight to trailer weight?

[Jack Mayer]

What a timely thread! I just drove my first trip with my 45' DRV Fullhouse. I was kind of worried about pin weight with 1100# of motorcycles in the garage so i stuffed the front storage bay with as much weight as i could, rather than pack it away distributed throughout the coach. Well that was not enough cause the tail was wagging the dog! I can't imagine how bad it would have been if i had a smaller truck. If DRV had placed the axles closer to the rear, the trailer would be much safer to pull but they would likely loose sales because the heaver pin weight would eliminate lighter trucks. Now that i am in warmer weather i will fill the fresh and gray tanks before the next move and see if that helps.

How about some scale tickets when you get a chance??? That would be greatly appreciated by many people.

 

BTW, I like to have 25% on my pin. I'll "settle" for 23%, but I really don't like less. That works with our trucks, but not with the lighter pickups if you have a large, heavy trailer. For example, I am running 7,000 lbs on my pin right now. And that pushes even our singled tractors.

[orca]

Pheonix2013;

There is a large tank just aft of the main storage. I am guessing that it is fresh water and the center line is about 8 ft forward of the front axle and 15 ft aft of the pin. I believe the other tanks are still forward of the axles but i can't verify exactly where unless i pull off the belly pan. With that large tank full i am hoping it will help minimize the effect of the motorcycles in the garage but won't find out till i move next week.

[orca]

How about some scale tickets when you get a chance??? That would be greatly appreciated by many people.

 

BTW, I like to have 25% on my pin. I'll "settle" for 23%, but I really don't like less. That works with our trucks, but not with the lighter pickups if you have a large, heavy trailer. For example, I am running 7,000 lbs on my pin right now. And that pushes even our singled tractors.

Jack; i did scale the truck empty in anticipation of scaling the trailer loaded but i was in too big a hurry to get out of the cold and snow but if i get a chance to pop into a CAT scale i will. (by memory i think 2650kg front 3440kg rear empty truck)

[GeorgiaHybrid]

Our DRV weighs in at 21,000 fully loaded and with just two 8K axles, it doesn't take a math wizard to figure out a pin weight of 5K. That is just under 24% and this trailer tows nicely.

[MrSeas]

Our DRV weighs in at 21,000 fully loaded and with just two 8K axles, it doesn't take a math wizard to figure out a pin weight of 5K. That is just under 24% and this trailer tows nicely.

Have you run it across a scale to verify your assumption?

[phoenix2013]

 

Shucks Henry .........IF you were any more famous Trump and Hillery would not have a chance for a new job.........

 

As far a fortune goes after you have had a Stinson Henry every other rig is just another step lower.........now that was the crowning definition of a stable yet very light and responsive set of controls..........those slotted leading edges gave crisp rolls at 50kts any day of the week......in well over another +100 aircraft models I have yet to ever find a better set of controls.......

 

I have no idea what the layout of the "problem 5th trailer" you are working on so I have no idea what mass-adjustments might be made but my spreadsheet is VERY easy to change mass-arms to any location you desire and as soon as you change any station or weight cell the entire truck and trailer are updated live so you obtain a real time results of the changes you have made.

 

If you want to fiddle with the spreadsheet just email me at: mmcdan3189@aol.com and I will send you the spreadsheet via email.

 

Drive on..........(To fame and new ........knees)

 

Dolly, let's "diverge", these were really sweet birds and I had two of them with two different partners.

 

 

N97223 and

 

 

N8758K. The first one was all metalized and the second one was fabric. We spent three years rebuilding the first one by the time I got to the second one I knew better, we bought it all redone and rebuilt.

Here's two of them flying together, the 58K was the "photo ship".

 

 

You are right about those leading edge slots, note that we painted those white. These things flew and maneuvered like nothing else. They wouldn't stall or drop a wing at super low speed, we operated from a small field with nasty approaches on both ends. I used to bring them over end of the the runway slow down to 55-60 mph and the thing would sink down like an elevator on a string, just before landing give it a little throttle to stop the sink and put the fronts on the pavement, little push on the wheel to keep the tail up (unnatural thing for many pilots), then slowly bleed the throttle and settle the tail wheel to the pavement. It was thing of beauty, 300-400 feet, done. I always hated 3 point landings I thought these were not "elegant".

[Dollytrolley]

Henry wrote:

You are right about those leading edge slots, note that we painted those white. These things flew and maneuvered like nothing else. They wouldn't stall or drop a wing at super low speed, we operated from a small field with nasty approaches on both ends. I used to bring them over end of the the runway slow down to 55-60 mph and the thing would sink down like an elevator on a string, just before landing give it a little throttle to stop the sink, put the fronts on the pavement, little more throttle to keep the tail up, then slowly bleed the throttle and settle the tail wheel to the pavement. It was thing of beauty, 300-400 feet, done. I always hated 3 point landings I thought these were not "elegant".

 

Indeed you are right on regarding the Stinson's .........even today they are the leader when it comes to a fine handling light aircraft.

 

After I had obtained the FAA STC approval for the 180 & 200 Lyc conversions it seemed that as soon as I would drop a Lyc into a Stinson some rich dude would come along and make me a offer that this poor hillbilly could not refuse and then I would have go get another Stinson and Lyc and start all over again....and again....

 

Around the time that I was getting Stinson-poor I was also towing sailplanes at the local glider group and often used one of the Stinsons to tow sailplanes and it worked very well with the only drawback being the limited rearward visibility and that was solved with a couple of 8" parabolic mirrors mounted to the struts. As more and more sailplanes wanted to fly Central Oregon I decided to purchase a Piper Pawnee 260 hp with a internal towline winch mounted under the pilots seat.......at 260 Hp the Pawnee was able to two a large heavy-water-ballasted sailplane off a high altitude strip on a hot summer day fairly well........however the Stinson with only 180 HP would be right on the Pawnee tail and it was a much more comfortable aircraft. The 180 Stinson could keep up with a 180HP Super Cub with ease at 1/3 the cost of purchase.

 

Just as I was posed to corner the market on Stinsons one of the local tow pilots came up with a fabulous-get-rich-quick-scheme that involved taking my 180 HP Stinson with another tow pilot to Kerrville Texas and hitch onto a Schweizer 1-26 sailplane and then tow over to Deming NM and then pick up a Schweizer 1-23 and then DOUBLE TOW all the way back to Central Oregon over some pretty darn high ground all of the way..........To say the trip was epic was a understatement and Bill Gates does not have enough money to get me to consider a trip like that now but it was a great adventure back then and we did not bend any aircraft on the trip and the stinson just towed like the real workhorse it was. As I recall we did make huge $$$$ in that after expenses I'll bet we were knocking down at least .15 cents a hour and getting a very low-level gander at much of the Western U S. but we were getting paid to fly....does life get any better than that?

 

Just so we are "legal for your thread subject" I will state that the Stinson had a very stable weight and balance envelope that was the envy of most other aircraft owners. The BIG tail surfaces and nice wings composed a fine aircraft.

 

Fly on.........(Double tows are for .......young folks)

[phoenix2013]

Dolly, we were young and poor boys then, we could only dream of the Lyc conversion, both had the old and trusty Franklin 150s. We started with a "project" Stinson that a guy gave up on for short dollars. Shortly into the project we learned about insurance salvage Stinson, the cabin was set on fire at the airport, so we bought it for thousand bucks for parts.

 

It was the N97223. As we looked at what needed to be done and the rest of the airplane the 223 appeared to be a much better candidate for rebuild so we swapped our effort. But the clincher was when we sent request to Oklahoma for it's mechanical history, that Franklin in the 223 had only 60 hours on it since complete overhaul. that was a happy day. Also it had almost no vibrations on it at 2200 RPM with a metal prop. I really liked that airplane.

[phoenix2013]

Pheonix2013;

There is a large tank just aft of the main storage. I am guessing that it is fresh water and the center line is about 8 ft forward of the front axle and 15 ft aft of the pin. I believe the other tanks are still forward of the axles but i can't verify exactly where unless i pull off the belly pan. With that large tank full i am hoping it will help minimize the effect of the motorcycles in the garage but won't find out till i move next week.

 

Carriage used to put their fresh water tanks in that location on some of their models. If it's the case on yours it should make a difference since you'd be putting over 800 pound of water close to the pin. We will appreciate seeing your scale tickets. Incidentally I give a seminar on weight and balance at the Rally and knowing about more and different rigs is always helpful.