Rethinking it from the ground up...

[bobk3d]

I've been evaluating full-time options, expecting to purchase after the first of the year. Based on budget/space needs, and desire to limit the TV to a 3/4 ton SRW, weight is a major consideration, so I've been looking at mid-range lightweights like Coachmen, Heartland, Rockwood, etc., GVW 9K-12K. I can afford all the space I want if tow a 33' trailer. But a 5th wheel around 29-32' would do it, and it sounds a much better towing experience. I had been shopping new, but...

 

5th wheels in that class, if you shop by price, are in the $25-$27K range. So that was what I was looking at, until I read about the Mor-Ryde Independent Suspension, and it was one of those DUH moments. I looks like it reduces the unsprung weight quite a bit, and that's the biggest factor in ride quality, regardless of suspension configuration. I'd think it would make any towable last more miles, as well as everything in it. Like cameras and computers. The Mor-Ryde reviews seem universally positive. The brake upgrade is pretty appealing on its own, that's a definite upgrade, I think.

 

Y'know, I've been studying floorplans and wall construction and hitches and electrics and I never noticed how primitive the suspensions on these things are, or gave any thought to how much it matters for full-timing. Now I'm a fanatic about the IS. Of course, nothing within my weight/price limits comes equipped with it, it would be hard to find a used one that I could tow.

 

So now I'm thinking I should shop for an 18K-20K used 5th, spend 5K on the suspension/brakes, $2K on repairs, then I'd have a better than new unit, in many ways.

 

The catch is that it looks like i'd have to go back a few model years, maybe 2010-2012, and maybe it's already taken a beating. But there seem to be plenty of listings, if any are as good as they look.

 

Another option is a long trailer, I could probably afford new, and add the IS and one of the premium hitches, which might total about the same. I'm just not very excited about a TT over 30', but I there might be a 30' I like.

 

Seems kind of weird to put premium suspension & brakes on a fairly inexpensive trailer, I know. But my stuff inside is worth a lot, too, so when I add it all up, it seems pretty justifiable. And some of it might come back in resale, if I reached the right buyers.

 

And yes, I'm keeping my eyes open for alternatives, if I found the right second-hand Arctic Fox or similar, I might forego the suspension in favor of a step in quality. But that will depend on what's available when I'm ready to buy, because I won't have much time to shop seriously. I'm thinking a trip to PPL in Texas is probably worth it.

[mptjelgin]

We've had a TT and two fifth wheels over the past 20+ years, and have full-timed for 5 1/2 years now. All three of our rigs had conventional leaf-spring suspensions. The two fifth wheels had shocks and the current fifth wheel has an "equa-flex" rubber suspension equalizer in the center spring mount and the Demco "Glide-Ryde" in the pin box, which are supposed to be a bit more gentle than a hard mount, but nothing like Mor-Ryde IS and an airbag type hitch.

 

We've never had anything damaged inside of a trailer due to a rough ride, and our last fifth wheel was in excellent condition when we sold it after 11 years. I wouldn't make Mor-Ryde IS or Disc Brakes a must-have, especially considering the size of the trailer you're considering. I think it is easy to conclude that these items are 'must-haves", but in reality the vast majority of trailers have conventional suspensions and hitches and they perform fine. If I were looking at a full-time trailer I would definitely look at overall quality and livable floor-plan (like an Artic Fox) over specific items like IS or disc brakes. You can always add that stuff later if you want, but you can't improve the floor-plan or overall quality of the trailer without buying a new one.

 

What I would do is move up to a 1 ton SRW truck. They are practically the same price as the 3/4 ton SRW and will give you a usable increase in rear axle capacity.

 

Best of luck in your searches.

[Big Greg]

From my experience MOR/ryde IS does not reduce the unspring weight, it increases it. We went from 7K axles to 8K IS in 2010. Each IS unit is a very large chunk of steel compared to a hollow axle, some leaf springs and a shock. To us it was a good investment. We ordered our fifth wheel with disc brakes and have had zero brake problems in 70K miles and have only had them checked a few times. Also a good investment in safety.

My two cent suggestion would be to invest in a used better quality RV but be sure you get the right layout and size. As you said you can always upgrade components and also spread the RV expense over time. If you rush the decision you'll only increase the possibility of a poor decision. If you decide on a used unit you can check the inventory and Kansas RV Center ( formerly NuWa) here: http://www.kansasrvcenter.com/nuwa-inventory.aspx Good luck with your decision! Greg

[Kirk W]

Just to add a little bit of "food for thought." Consider that you will spend far more time inside the RV with it sitting still than you do on the road, especially if you are fulltime. A quality interior means that the home will look nice far longer since you will be spending more time in the RV each year than a typical RV user does in 10 years. In addition, quality construction of the RV means that it will need less maintenance and repairs. It means lowered expenses for those items and make it far less likely that you will be looking to trade up anytime soon, and trading is probably the most costly thing an RVer does.

 

Better quality also usually means more insulation and things like dual pane windows which will lower the cost to heat the RV and keep it more comfortable in hot weather too.

[Jim Gell]

So now I'm thinking I should shop for an 18K-20K used 5th, spend 5K on the suspension/brakes, $2K on repairs, then I'd have a better than new unit, in many ways.

 

Our numbers were higher, but we did something along those lines. We bought a reasonably priced 9 year old high quality 5th wheel in excellent condition and then put quite a bit more money into upgrades. I also invested quite bit of time and travel expense looking around the country for an excellent used fifth wheel to start with. After one year we are still happy with our decision. I feel we have a much better trailer than had we spent the same money on a new, or even just a newer, fifth wheel.

 

Jim

[Mark and Dale Bruss]

 

From my experience MOR/ryde IS does not reduce the unspring weight, it increases it. We went from 7K axles to 8K IS in 2010. Each IS unit is a very large chunk of steel compared to a hollow axle, some leaf springs and a shock.

Unsprung weight is the hardware that is moved by road bump contact. For a traditional suspension, that is the wheels, hubs, and axles. For a MORryde IS suspension, it is the wheels and hubs.

 

The MORryde crosstubes take what was unsprung axle weight to sprung chassis weight.

 

With traditional spring suspensions, every wheel gets involved in a bump because of the inter-linking of the springs, adding the mass that is moved toward the frame. With the IS, just the wheel in play.

[D&J]

Some light weight units use independent suspension that isn't More Ryde but it works just as good, check out Dexter Torque Flex. You should be able to order some of the lower end units with it

 

Denny

[bobk3d]

Thanks, all. As usual, my question was overly-complicated.

 

The choice is not "independent suspension, or a nicer trailer and a bigger truck". I'm comparing new trailer with standard suspension vs a couple years old with independent.

 

I *might* find an Arctic Fox or Open Range that I can afford/tow/like, but I won't be able to spend several months shopping for one. If I can't find a new or used 5th that works with a 3/4-ton, then I'll just get a travel trailer and deal with the towing. There's always something a little bigger and a little nicer, but I have to limit myself to what I really need.

 

"Unsprung weight" refers to the parts of the suspension that move, including the wheels & tires. The only moving parts I see on the Mor-Ryde are the two pivot arms that hold the wheels, and those must be much lighter than straight axles and leaf springs, hence my excitement. But I noticed Mor-Ryde doesn't advertise it as an advantage, so I'll inquire one of these days. But in terms of ride quality, the ratio of sprung weight to unsprung is 90% of the game. All things equal, a heavier trailer will always ride better, but a lighter trailer will get the greatest benefit from a reduction in unsprung weight.

 

And in my case, I have some cameras and scanners that are vital and irreplaceable, and plenty of other electronics. They don't break like dishes, but cumulative bouncing will have an effect sooner or later. The less of it the better.

 

Kirk - what I need is more of a mobile live/work space, so I'm going to have to do some customizing and upgrading no matter what I start with. The way the product lines are, I can't just get better quality by sacrificing something else; they don't make small heavyweights. Basically I'm looking at the best "quality" I can afford, at least I think so.

[Kevin H]

There is a pretty good looking 27' Arctic Fox at PPL right now. It sounds like it might fit your criteria.

[Jim Gell]

 

Our numbers were higher, but we did something along those lines. We bought a reasonably priced 9 year old high quality 5th wheel in excellent condition and then put quite a bit more money into upgrades. I also invested quite bit of time and travel expense looking around the country for an excellent used fifth wheel to start with. After one year we are still happy with our decision. I feel we have a much better trailer than had we spent the same money on a new, or even just a newer, fifth wheel.

 

Jim

 

 

The choice is not "independent suspension, or a nicer trailer and a bigger truck". I'm comparing new trailer with standard suspension vs a couple years old with independent.

 

I *might* find an Arctic Fox or Open Range that I can afford/tow/like, but I won't be able to spend several months shopping for one. If I can't find a new or used 5th that works with a 3/4-ton, then I'll just get a travel trailer and deal with the towing. There's always something a little bigger and a little nicer, but I have to limit myself to what I really need.

 

Basically I'm looking at the best "quality" I can afford, at least I think so.

 

To clarify, all I really meant to relate was that, in my opinion, you're better off using whatever money you have budgeted to buy a better quality used unit in good condition rather than use the same amount of money buying newer. I thought that was the way you were leaning. I did not suggest that you spend more money than you have budgeted on a nicer trailer or bigger truck.

 

You may find a good used unit easily. I know folks who bought the first RV they looked at and are very happy with it. But for me, I found it to be somewhat of an expensive ordeal to find one that I was happy with. I brought that up, because I thought you might want to consider how your search could affect your budget. I had the time to look, but found myself questioning along the way if I should settle for a trailer I was less than completely satisfied with, or keep spending money looking. There is luck involved. I felt very unlucky until I found the one I bought. On the other hand, it was an eye opener for me, how few of the dealers and private sellers were willing to disclose issues upfront like spongy rotted slide floors. I believe some of those sellers may not have realized they had serious issues that would require expensive repair. Others, such as one with an ozone machine running in the bedroom, probably knew they had serious mold issues from ongoing leaks that would have cost over $15K to fix. I would think the less you want to spend, the more due diligence is required.

 

I may not be answering your question(s), but I am trying to help.

 

Jim

[bobk3d]

KevinH, Yes, that's what I'll keep an eye open for when I'm ready to shop seriously. This one doesn't have enough space for me, though.

 

And 2009 is now seven model years old, so... that's a lot of wear. Arctic's reputation is great, but build quality doesn't last forever. I was thinking 4-5 years old maximum, and there probably won't be many options when the time comes.

 

I'll spare everybody the details of my decision tree, but I still think the independent suspension is a good long-term investment, if done when the vehicle is fairly new. I wouldn't add it to a Jayco weekender, but the mid-level lightweights should benefit. And disc brakes, I'm pretty sure I'll spring for those regardless of what I get.

[MNRon]

bobk3d - Your money, your decision. But for whatever it's worth I'd amplify a couple of comments others have made.

1 - If you're buying a TV, get a 1T vs 3/4T. Price is really nearly the same, ride the same, you just get more payload. Also make sure you get a truck that's of the newer generation regarding payloads, sometime around 2012 all the manufactures greatly improved here if you buy something much older it will have significantly less payload. We went with a 2013 1T SRW.

2 - If money is any concern, you'll do much better purchasing a 5er (or TT) used. We've purchased 1 new TT (lower end), one 3yr old TT (Jayco Eagle), and a 9yr old HH 5er. The HitchHiker is clearly the best quality of the units we've had even though it's also the oldest. Recommend you check out Kansas RV Center as Big Greg suggested.

3 - I love the MorRyde IS we had put on our HH, but would agree with others that if it was a trade-off I'd make sure you got the floorplan and quality before you spent on suspension. BTW - we went with oversized drum brakes instead of disc's, disc would be nice but new drum brakes are already huge improvement and couldn't justify the $ in our case.

4 - Recommend 5er vs TT. Much better ride, and lots more space for full-timing.

Good luck with your plans

[bobk3d]

 

To clarify, all I really meant to relate was that, in my opinion, you're better off using whatever money you have budgeted to buy a better quality used unit in good condition rather than use the same amount of money buying newer. I thought that was the way you were leaning. I did not suggest that you spend more money than you have budgeted on a nicer trailer or bigger truck.

ou want to spend, the more due diligence is required.

 

I may not be answering your question(s), but I am trying to help.

 

Jim

 

Jim, thanks. I realize that, sorry if it sounded otherwise.

 

Paying for slightly better quality on a 2-5 year old unit makes some sense. I had initially vowed not to buy any used trailer, but I'm softening on later models. But saving the cost of the suspension upgrade probably won't get me into a substantially better brand, not even second-hand. And I don't want t pay up for nice furnishings, because I'm going to have to do some alterations anyway. So it comes down to construction, insulation, weight. It looks like no matter what I buy, the water heater will suck unless I upgrade it.

 

And the truck is capped at a 3/4 ton, not negotiable. Pretty sure I can find something livable under 11K GVW, and I expect most of my driving will be unhitched, especially since I expect longer stays in future years. So I've budgeted for a CPO 3/4 ton, hope to make it last a long time.

[Kevin H]

Just an FYI - I have been thinking of the IS/Disc brake upgrade to our 2013 Montana. I called MorRyde. The cost is $6k. I had heard $5k in the past so was a bit surprised to hear the real number.

[bobk3d]

bobk3d - Your money, your decision. But for whatever it's worth I'd amplify a couple of comments others have made.

1 - If you're buying a TV, get a 1T vs 3/4T. Price is really nearly the same, ride the same, you just get more payload. Also make sure you get a truck that's of the newer generation regarding payloads, sometime around 2012 all the manufactures greatly improved here if you buy something much older it will have significantly less payload. We went with a 2013 1T SRW.

 

Ron, I see that 1-tons aren't much more costly. But I probably can't afford the extra weight to tow behind it, unless I shop for an older unit than I want. If I find an affordable 5th that's marginal on weight, I'll consider a 1-ton for sure, but it's a narrow possibility, I think.

 

I guess it's just me, but I feel better about spending on upgrades for the things that I care the most about. That way I know exactly what I'm getting. You don't spend $10 to fix a $5 watch (Red Auerbach quote), but If I designed from scratch, it would wouldn't match any market offering.

[bobk3d]

Well, thanks to everybody for indulging my offbeat ideas.

 

Let's revisit it when I'm ready for some serious shopping, and I can post links to specific listings for feedback. The final budget will be the profit from my condo, which is hard to predict.

[Phil Saran]

For full timing a 5th wheel is a good choice, lots of storage for clothes ect.

You mention a 30 + ft travel trailer, I owned a 30 ft TT and we found even for a 2 week road trip we were sorly

lacking in storage space for clothes. ended up using the bed of the truck with a shell over it for "extra" storage.

 

We went for a 34 ft Class A motor home and have sufficient storage space now.

 

Just my $0.02 cents.

[bobk3d]

Well that's my thinking, too.

 

There are some 5ths that would be okay with a 3/4 ton, and that's what I've been looking at. But they're all relatively lightweight. Moving to anything heavier just drives up the cost, one factor after another. I only need good insulation, I don't need 4-season. About 80% of the 5th wheel floorplans would work for me, I'll be replacing some or all of the seating, and 30' seems adequate. Elkridge XL & Chapparal XL are the approxmate weight/price class.

 

But I'm firm on the 3/4-ton gas SRW, but open to 1T-gas-SRW for a great deal. I'm already unhappy that I need to drive something that big. I estimate 60% or more of my driving will be unhitched, it's a quality of life issue just like the trailer is.

I don't mind buying used, but only if it's something I could (almost) afford new. It's just a way of staying within my means.

 

If it turns out my budget is smaller, a trailer would be more economical, I'd get more space for the money at the same quality level, and I'd have some load capacity in a 3/4 bed. What worries me is that it would be hard to keep it straight and hard to make it turn.

[jblscooper]

Well that's my thinking, too.

 

There are some 5ths that would be okay with a 3/4 ton, and that's what I've been looking at. But they're all relatively lightweight. Moving to anything heavier just drives up the cost, one factor after another. I only need good insulation, I don't need 4-season. About 80% of the 5th wheel floorplans would work for me, I'll be replacing some or all of the seating, and 30' seems adequate. Elkridge XL & Chapparal XL are the approxmate weight/price class.

 

But I'm firm on the 3/4-ton gas SRW, but open to 1T-gas-SRW for a great deal. I'm already unhappy that I need to drive something that big. I estimate 60% or more of my driving will be unhitched, it's a quality of life issue just like the trailer is.

I don't mind buying used, but only if it's something I could (almost) afford new. It's just a way of staying within my means.

 

If it turns out my budget is smaller, a trailer would be more economical, I'd get more space for the money at the same quality level, and I'd have some load capacity in a 3/4 bed. What worries me is that it would be hard to keep it straight and hard to make it turn.

 

 

But I'm firm on the 3/4-ton gas SRW, but open to 1T-gas-SRW for a great deal. I'm already unhappy that I need to drive something that big. I estimate 60% or more of my driving will be unhitched, it's a quality of life issue just like the trailer is.

 

You do realize that a 3/4T and a 1T are the same footprint, width and height?

 

Jim

[Kirk W]

 

I estimate 60% or more of my driving will be unhitched, it's a quality of life issue just like the trailer is.

This is one of the reasons that some of us find we prefer to live in a motorized RV and to tow a smaller vehicle for running about. Just food for thought. On the subject of what type of RV has enough storage, it has been my experience that the amount of storage needed varies widely from one person to the next so you and I may find that to be very different. In addition, many RVs have more storage capacity than they have weight carrying capability. Be very cautious of overloading your RV when you fill whatever storage space you get. An overloaded RV is not a safe way to travel.

[Sehc]

Most 3/4 ton are sized smaller than 1 ton. But 1 ton are more expensive for parts and repair. I had a S10 with a "camper package" that was rated 3/4 ton.

[bobk3d]

 

 

You do realize that a 3/4T and a 1T are the same footprint, width and height?

 

Jim

 

Yes, but... it's still a few extra $K, and good used ones are scarcer. It's also a temptation to shop for an even heavier trailer. Like I said, if a great deal turns up, maybe.

 

 

[bobk3d]

This is one of the reasons that some of us find we prefer to live in a motorized RV and to tow a smaller vehicle for running about. Just food for thought.

 

I expect to travel a lot for a couple of years and then I'll probably do more of a snowbird thing. So I thought of buying an Class C and selling it after a couple of years, it's still an appealing idea. But Class C's, even big ones, aren't very appealing for stationary living. Depreciation after trading would reduce my budget in the future, that's what worries me the most. Savings aren't really growing these days, and I'm moving from a condo that appreciated to an RV that will depreciate.

 

Not a chance that I'll overload, all my planning revolves around weight. Weight is truth.

 

When I get to serious shopping, I'll be happy to lay my priority list in more detail than anybody has the patience to read. I'm getting a little ahead of myself right now. I'm over 60, but being single, I still live like a 20-something in many ways.

But you know, I started thinking again about living quarters, furnishings, etc. And if I really want to be happy and comfortable, I'll find a way to bring my 7' sofa from home. My grandparents bought it in the 1920's, I've had it since the 70's, reupholstered it in the 90's, I've moved it among 16 homes and across country three times, and countless guests have slept on it and raved about the comfort. So I'm going to try and make that part of the plan, because I'm pretty attached to the darn thing.

[mptjelgin]

Most 3/4 ton are sized smaller than 1 ton. But 1 ton are more expensive for parts and repair. I had a S10 with a "camper package" that was rated 3/4 ton.

 

This is incorrect for SRW trucks. Generally the difference between a 3/4 ton and 1 ton SRW truck is the spring pack on the rear axle, and (perhaps) the tires. Otherwise the engines, transmissions, body panels, interiors, etc. are identical. When I've ordered my last two Ford Superduty trucks the difference between identical F-250 and F-350 trucks was a few hundred dollars. And there is absolutely zero difference in parts or repair costs between the two.

 

Now the DRW trucks are completly different animals. Perhaps this is the source of some of these confusing statements.

[DuneElliot]

 

This is incorrect for SRW trucks. Generally the difference between a 3/4 ton and 1 ton SRW truck is the spring pack on the rear axle, and (perhaps) the tires. Otherwise the engines, transmissions, body panels, interiors, etc. are identical. When I've ordered my last two Ford Superduty trucks the difference between identical F-250 and F-350 trucks was a few hundred dollars. And there is absolutely zero difference in parts or repair costs between the two.

 

Now the DRW trucks are completly different animals. Perhaps this is the source of some of these confusing statements.

 

I second this, having owned and driven both. The engines and footprint are identical. The only difference are the springs, and the maybe the tires as mentioned above. I have seen some with a slightly different rear-end gear set-up, but I believe those were a special order.

 

My 26ft Keystone Springdale is "rated" at 8100#, loaded weight. It has ample space for a single person (with one slide-out) and I also ripped out the fitted furniture to make room and to put real furniture in it that was more comfortable.

I say mine is "rated" as 8100# but since I have changed out the axles from 3500# each to 6000# each and gone from 15" to 16" tires I can carry a lot more. But at the 8100# loaded weight, my F-250 barely knows it's back there. It has almost no squat to it. So you can find a good-size trailer for one person that is lightweight and pulls easily with a 3/4 ton truck if you look in the right places.