Remodeling Older Fifth Wheel

[Chad&Jen]

We had posted a while back about our desire to find a full-time rig that doesn't have a "country-style" interior.  Our tastes lean to clean modernism, but finding something like that from the factory (save the total custom/uber-pricey world of Spacecraft and the like)  is a pipe dream.  So our thought is buy a quality unit that has a few years on it (+/-10) and remodel it to our style.  This would likely include the following:  New flooring, window coverings, cabinet doors/pulls, paint/tile/wallpaper walls, replace kitchen countertops/backsplash/appliances and new furniture.  Basically, we want to go from this:

to something resembling this (be kind, we understand the limitations of RV construction and that you can't spin straw into gold):

So with this as the backdrop for the project, what models would make for a good quasi-blank canvas?  We have been diligent in our research and understand that it's the things you can't see that make a quality rig.  Frame design, insulation, roof construction, dual pane windows and the like matter most as much of the interior will be removed.  Ideally, we'd like to find something +/-40' in length and our budget pre-renovation would be around $50K.  The common floorplan of rear living and front bedroom work fine for our needs.

If any of you out there have tackled anything similar to this, we'd love to hear about your experience.  We certainly understand that this comes with much more stress than buying something newer off the lot, but as this will be our new home, we want to love the space as much as possible.  Thanks in advance for your feedback.  We'll be at the ECR if anyone wants to chat in person.

 

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

Carriage, Excel, NuWa/Hitchhiker, Travel Supreme, Teton, New Horizons, or DRV all have robust base framing and construction techniques.  I don't think you would go wrong taking any of them and remolding to your tastes.  I would recommend a floor plan you like with a bath layout that you don't need to change.  This will make the plumbing easier.  The top custom builders, Spacecraft, New Horizons,  and the now defunct  Continental Coachall usually didn't/don't use the exterior walls for any of the plumbing or electrical needs.  

You can find used New Horizons but good luck on the other 2.

[SuiteSuccess]

Agree totally with Jim and his choices. I believe several people have gutted their trailers and re built. If I remember correctly someone fairly new to the forum has a project going on now. Hopefully they will join the discussion but if not will see if I can find the thread. I do know Roger Dickerson retroed his so hopefully he will also respond. 

[Radman]

I can't add a lot to what's been said above...  I will add that we share similar taste and I am really looking forward to following your build-out.

Good luck and post often.

Jim

[lockmup68]

we are in process of remodeling a Teton. Going for the industrial, country chic look. (I think).

[lenp]

Not sure how the Teton owners will feel about this but....

I recently parted out a wrecked (totaled) early 2000 Teton and was amazed at the amount of water damage (prior to the accident) that had occurred around nearly all of the windows and the rear cap.  The rear cap did have some caulking issues that contributed to the damage in that area.  However, when I removed the windows there was absolutely no butyl tape between the window frames and the sidewalls.  Yes, there was a bead of silicon around the top of the window and about three inches down each side but nowhere near the level of sealant I would expect from a "quality" manufacturer!

Thus, if you choose a Teton for your project have a really good look at the entire unit looking for dry rot.  Remember, Teton used a lot of wood in the side walls and it doesn't take much water/moisture to destroy it.

Lenp

[rdickinson]

My rig is a 2001 or 2 Travel Supreme.  Purchase cost was 45k in '06. I've spent a lot of time and money on this rig to get it where it is today with still a couple of things more to do.

First was suspension and wheels.  It already had IS but upgraded hubs and wheels to 17.5.s.  Like in boating if the hull is sound everything else can be replaced.

Switched flourescents and incandescents to led's plus strip lights above the cornice in the kitchen. Under upper cabinet lights switched to led. Normally blue but can be switched to white. With Led's you can add more lights without having to run more circuits due to them drawing less.  

Carpets changed as were tiles in the kitchen and bathroom.  Went to cork in the bathroom and a 2 tone beige and brown commercial grade lino tile in the kitchen.

Pitched the rv fridge and went with a ridiculously expensive residential antique white retro 50's fridge from Elmira stove in Canada. 36" wide.  Made an island for the kitchen.  The original was 16 or 18" deep, 36" wide. 2 doors and 2 drawers.  Not much use.  So I built a 5' island 24" deep, radiused back edge on the counter to take sharpness off it.  Top is red battleship marmoleum left over from a Target refit, metal edge like in the 50's.  The whole island slides 10 inches on Teflon or plastic blocks to allow for slide operation.  When travelling, island slides towards fridge and dining room slide tucks up under cabinet, just missing toekick.  On the drawer/fridge  slide there is about 8" of space so I bungee fridge doors shut and drop pillows b/w fridge and pullouts and drawers.  Re the island there are 2 modules, a 3' one facing the fridge, 1 top drawer and 2 pots and pans below.  On the bathroom end a 20" wide 2' deep module with 1 drawer and 2 deep drawers below.  All are on touch latches, no handles.

Fridge runs off 4 golf cart batteries up front with a Magnum 2812 inverter charger running things.  Also put a couple of cables from truck batteries thru an isolator switch to the back of the truck then a forklift power connector to the trailer batteries.  The Volvo alternator is a 150 amp unit but I'm told electronics generally put out 70-80% so that makes it 108 max going back to the trailer. 

The idea behind this was so if I was boondocking and running off the generator, the Magnum Charger now does not need to take 1 circuit to charge the batteries which have been drained during the travelling day. Mind you, you can turn down the charge rate from the control panel.

 Fridge is tied back to the trailer side with some plumbing strapping and tech screws into the back of the fridge and wood screws into the trailer studs.  Fridge makes ice and delivers cold filtered water.

Unit came with washer and drier but added a Fisher Paykel dishwasher drawer in between the w&d.  made sense as hot, cold, power and drain were there already.

Added a 2 canister water filter outside.  Not a fancy system like in the modern coaches but it does the job.

Switched standard 7 pin rv cord to an EZ Connector.  It's magnetic and spent and xtra 8 bucks to order contacts gold plated.  No more corrosion.

Auto Sat dish.

Electric awning.  Easier and more convenient to use. If wind comes up at night, make a dive for the switch inside the door to retract.  A whole lot easier than going outside hopefully dressed to retract awning manually.

Also went over the roof and hatch edges  with Eternabond tape and caulked the edge.  Use the cleaner and primer recommended.

Added a residential deadbolt to the man door.

Changed the blinds from pulling up to open to pulling down to open.

Switched out hardware from brass to chrome or nickel, changed out light over d/r table to something more retro ish.  It's heavy so it is on a link that can be unthreaded then  removed and the light put on the floor....it can't fall from there.

Red cracked ice kitchen table and matching chairs came from a retro outfit in West Virginia, custom made to fit space available. Red and antique white to match island. Table came with a typical pedestal base so I found some curved pipe legs from that era on a table on the curb to be  thrown out. Took the table home removed the 50's legs, got them chromed and swapped them out for the pedestal....perfect.

Added 8 ditch or underbody led  lights under the trailer and 6 under the truck to give decent lighting when backing into a spot at night.  Got that idea from local firetrucks.  One guy said it looked like Hollywood had arrived...maybe so but I didn't hit anything.

One thing in doing a refit, A&J hit it right on the mark, keep the layout the same or close to it.  Same as a house, once you start changing things it becomes a huge problem for wiring and plumbing. I've been involved in tons of renovations. Also it is difficult to get something to go together as well  the second time as the first   Like the Dr's who worked on my wrists saying, " we don't want to have to go back in there again."   Randy knows all too well of what I speak....  But sometimes you can make improvements, technology has changed. You also get to know the unit inside out and backwards.

Another thing, before you start taking thing apart, take pics for reference.  Also get a labelling machine something like the Dymo 4200 and label everything.  Scott, Mr Seas or Seize  the labelling King, does that.  This is a huge help when looking for a problem, labelled lines or circuits can help rule things in  in or out, saving time and frustration.

When I see and hear of the problems some have with their units, I know I made the right decision to get my old Travels Supreme.  The Hauler and Trailer have matching graphics and the new Smart is also red and white.  My point is, no-one asks how old it is as some have said they have been asked.

It is a never ending process but then so is owning a house.  My 50's house in Calgary had a lot of upgrades, many I did myself and it looked great, my brothers house was built in the 80's and still looks like it did then, old windows, doors flooring brass hardware.

Doing one thing at a time keeps the interest in the trailer.

A lot of upgrades or changes don't cost a lot of money but take a fair bit of time to plan them out.

Let me know if you want info.

 

Regards

Roger

[SuiteSuccess]

Roger,

My apologies for name misspelling.

[Heavymetal]

18 hours ago, Alie&Jim's Carrilite said:

Carriage, Excel, NuWa/Hitchhiker, Travel Supreme, Teton, New Horizons, or DRV all have robust base framing and construction techniques.  I don't think you would go wrong taking any of them and remolding to your tastes.  I would recommend a floor plan you like with a bath layout that you don't need to change.  This will make the plumbing easier.  The top custom builders, Spacecraft, New Horizons,  and the now defunct  Continental Coachall usually didn't/don't use the exterior walls for any of the plumbing or electrical needs.  

You can find used New Horizons but good luck on the other 2.

Don't forget the battleships built by Newmar. Mountain Aire, Country Aire with there hung walls, 16" frames and riding on a  tandem dually Morryde IS.

[SIBERNUT]

Only the Kountry Aire had the 16" frame, and they reduced it to 14 around 2005. MA does not have it.

BTW, we LOVE our KA.

[Brad & Jacolyn]

I agree with the choices named. Try Kanas RV Center. They refurb Hitchhikers and may have something that has not been done yet if you want to do it yourself. Good Luck.

 

 

Brad

[lockmup68]

Roger. Need some pics!

[grumpydoc]

lenp, I agree with your assessment  of Tetons and the potential for substantial hidden water damage.  We had a 2006, one of the last ones made before Teton filed bankruptcy and we battled water leaks and subsequent water damage to the wood structure the entire time we owned it.  We found as you did that caulking and fitment was poor to non existent.  By the time we identified and repaired all the leaks the water damaged wood structures needed substantial repair.  I would never own another wood framed RV such as a Teton or Excel.  We are quite happy with our aluminum framed Continental Coach, Best Wishes, Jay

[SuiteSuccess]

Jay,

As an aside since Forks going out of business, anyone "adopting" your coach for repairs, etc.  Must say the Continental's are beautiful coaches and would hate to see them unable to be serviced.

[rdickinson]

I struggle with the US phone and photoshop.  The link to Photoshop has changed.  if I can't get it to work, pics could be sent by regular e-mail and could be posted by others.

Does that work for you??

By the way there is a sold listing on RVOnline for a 38' Newmar.  It was a good deal and well laid out with lots of xtras.  Also there was another Newmar for sale in the members for sale topic but can't find it.

About replacing cabinet doors, this is entirely possible.  Cabinets can be refinished with considerable work, masking, prepping.  Prepping properly is vital.  Oak presents more of a challenge as it is an open grained wood so the grain will telegraph thru pretty much everything.  Rather like painting over bricks.

Maple or Birch is more readily painted.

Doors can be ordered pretty much any style and color you want.  The biggest issue in replacing doors is the hinges.  Mine for instance has the old style hinges that screw right onto the face of the cabinet box.  Newer rigs may have concealed or semi concealed hinges which attach to the cabinet faceframe on the inside edge. You may want to change the doors only, leaving the box as is and finding hinges with the same footprint.  When hinges are removed from the box, they leave an impression or footprint in the laquer which unless you bondo the footprint, and then refinish the box, footprint will remain. 

In the case of my Rig, the original interior color is a ginger, nuttmeggy Maple.  The doors remained but the hinges and knobs were changed.  I was able to locate a knockoff to the original Amerock 7629 MAE.  Made offshore and not good quality but no other option at that time. The new cabinets, island plus the retro fridge and microwave are antique white which goes with the original color.

Tiling walls is doable but walls need to be doubled up with another layer of plywood to provide enough support and reduce flexing.  Randy A did his in the kitchen and it looks pretty good.  In my case, I'll use pencil tiles and pick up red, antique white or the gingery color with accent tiles.

Kitchen counter and double sink will be replaced with anew counter with a larger single sink .  Don't need a double as I have a dishwasher.

So all or most is possible.  Priorities are the hull and running gear.

Also some units with enclose underbellies which make inspection of the slideout mechanism difficult. With the carpets and flooring up, plywood or OSB subfloor can be removed, slide mechanism (s) inspected, repaired as needed and floors put back down again.  Trust me this is a lot easier than removing crinkly tin with gobs of silicone all over the place.  With floors up, water tanks, fittings can be checked also extra wiring put in for possible future use, ie backup camera system.

Don't worry about the misspelling of my name, I've been called worse.

 

Roger

[GlennWest]

My Teton has no water damage. Not saying none do but due maintenance prevents this.

[SuiteSuccess]

Deleted.  

 

[Chad&Jen]

Thanks for all the incredible information.  Roger, if you are going to be at the ECR, I'd love the opportunity to sit down and pick your brain over a bottle of your favorite poison.  I wish DW and I had the skills and training to tackle a project like this ourselves, but we would almost certainly be looking to hire someone with experience to take the lead.  I will contact Kansas RV Center about possible options on that front.  We likely won't be transitioning to FT until 2019, so lots of time to do more research and find both a good unit and our A-Team to help us make our vision a reality.  

Keep the ideas flowing and we are looking forward to many informative conversations in TN.

[grumpydoc]

Suite, haven't heard anything from the Teton Club about service now that Forks is out of the picture.  Forks was a convenient one day drive from our summer home in KY.  Mark Bruss suggested Spacecraft for service/repair but for us that is a much further drive.  Would like to hear any suggestions for the Elkhart area, thanks and Best Wishes, Jay

[lockmup68]

4 hours ago, rdickinson said:

I struggle with the US phone and photoshop.  The link to Photoshop has changed.  if I can't get it to work, pics could be sent by regular e-mail and could be posted by others.

Does that work for you??

By the way there is a sold listing on RVOnline for a 38' Newmar.  It was a good deal and well laid out with lots of xtras.  Also there was another Newmar for sale in the members for sale topic but can't find it.

About replacing cabinet doors, this is entirely possible.  Cabinets can be refinished with considerable work, masking, prepping.  Prepping properly is vital.  Oak presents more of a challenge as it is an open grained wood so the grain will telegraph thru pretty much everything.  Rather like painting over bricks.

Maple or Birch is more readily painted.

Doors can be ordered pretty much any style and color you want.  The biggest issue in replacing doors is the hinges.  Mine for instance has the old style hinges that screw right onto the face of the cabinet box.  Newer rigs may have concealed or semi concealed hinges which attach to the cabinet faceframe on the inside edge. You may want to change the doors only, leaving the box as is and finding hinges with the same footprint.  When hinges are removed from the box, they leave an impression or footprint in the laquer which unless you bondo the footprint, and then refinish the box, footprint will remain. 

In the case of my Rig, the original interior color is a ginger, nuttmeggy Maple.  The doors remained but the hinges and knobs were changed.  I was able to locate a knockoff to the original Amerock 7629 MAE.  Made offshore and not good quality but no other option at that time. The new cabinets, island plus the retro fridge and microwave are antique white which goes with the original color.

Tiling walls is doable but walls need to be doubled up with another layer of plywood to provide enough support and reduce flexing.  Randy A did his in the kitchen and it looks pretty good.  In my case, I'll use pencil tiles and pick up red, antique white or the gingery color with accent tiles.

Kitchen counter and double sink will be replaced with anew counter with a larger single sink .  Don't need a double as I have a dishwasher.

So all or most is possible.  Priorities are the hull and running gear.

Also some units with enclose underbellies which make inspection of the slideout mechanism difficult. With the carpets and flooring up, plywood or OSB subfloor can be removed, slide mechanism (s) inspected, repaired as needed and floors put back down again.  Trust me this is a lot easier than removing crinkly tin with gobs of silicone all over the place.  With floors up, water tanks, fittings can be checked also extra wiring put in for possible future use, ie backup camera system.

Don't worry about the misspelling of my name, I've been called worse.

 

Roger

 

Feel free to email them to me. Messaged you my addy.

[lockmup68]

28 minutes ago, grumpydoc said:

Suite, haven't heard anything from the Teton Club about service now that Forks is out of the picture.  Forks was a convenient one day drive from our summer home in KY.  Mark Bruss suggested Spacecraft for service/repair but for us that is a much further drive.  Would like to hear any suggestions for the Elkhart area, thanks and Best Wishes, Jay

 

I spoke with Cole at New Horizons, he said he would be happy to take on any maintenance or repairs needed on the Teton. 3 hours west of Spacecraft.

[lockmup68]

Uploading pics for Roger:

A pic that covers several areas,

• new commercial grade flooring,
• new carpet,
• kitchen table
• LED lightstrip above cornice mold
• lights under uppers
• light above uppers
• light over kitchen table.

I can take individual. Pics and send if you think there is enough interest

So here is the long explanation.

Removing tiles grout and thinset was 5 lbs sq ft. adding another layer of 1/4” plywood and tiles brought floor back up to same level but weighed a little less.  Floor needs to be at original height for slide rollers to contact floor without stressing system I was told.

 

Flooring was put down with epoxy, not regular lino adhesive.  Epoxy is not effected by the big swings in temperature when the rigs are in storage say in Calgary.  100f in the summer or higher and 35f below in winter.  Yes I know I’m Canadian and should spout metric but I hate metric.  Give me distance in miles and temps in F thank you.

 

Our beer, however is a lot better than yours.

 

The led strip light above the uppers is on a controller which can change colors.  I’m a Miami Vice fan hence the pink and blue combination.

 

The lighted shelf between the uppers and countertop is a plexiglass product out of Colorado.  It has an led striplight in the edge.  The reason for the shelf was that there is never enough counterspace in these RV’s.  Plenty of height between underside of uppers and countertop so the shelf was located  leaving enough space for the kettle and tall canister to fit in either location hence clearing clutter from the counter.

 

The lights under the uppers replaced originals.  The problem was the footprint of the new led lights was a lot smaller than the new ones.  I got some thin opaque plastic sheeting less than 1/8” thick, made the pce bigger than the old footprint.  Mounted the new light to the underside of the plexi then mounted the plexi to the underside of the upper.  Obviously feeding the wire thru first.

 

The light has a 3 position rocker switch, off, bright white light or 3 blue led’s in 3rd position.

 

Lights, one is visible, at same ht as top of uppers are about the size of a cigarette package with a sliver button in the middle the size of a nickel. Touch once and the come on blue, touch again and fairly bright white.  Circuit can be switched off with a rocker switch under uppers.

 

With all lights being switched to led’s the power used is less than original.  I can tell how much drain there is by watching readout on Magnum panel.  Household size led bulbs are in the midrange of brightness, not yellow but not the harsh bright ones either.

 

There was a guy at the Tampa RV show again this year who supplies replacements for the stock rv flourescents.  About 20 bucks a strip.  The light strips are the way to go because the round tubes put in mine are bigger in diameter and push the lens cover off.  A flat strip won’t.  I have a couple and the contact info if anyone’s interested. Mine will be switched to the flat strips when I get back home end of April.

 

Let me know if you think better pics and clarification is needed before posting.

[grumpydoc]

Lockm, thanks for the feedback, Best wishes, Jay

[Heavymetal]

On April 3, 2017 at 8:31 AM, SIBERNUT said:

Only the Kountry Aire had the 16" frame, and they reduced it to 14 around 2005. MA does not have it.

BTW, we LOVE our KA.

The mountain Aire and kountry Aire with the tandem dually Morryde is had a16" frame 12" I beam and 2x4 box. The units with the tandem dually 10k Dexter axles had a 14" frame 12" I beam and 2x2 box. I have three mountain Aire 38RLPK's 1 2004 and 2 2005's two have 16" frame with Morryde IS and 1 has 14" frame with twin 10K Dexter axels. 

[Heavymetal]

On April 3, 2017 at 8:31 AM, SIBERNUT said:

Only the Kountry Aire had the 16" frame, and they reduced it to 14 around 2005. MA does not have it.

BTW, we LOVE our KA.

Also the reason they went to a 14" frame after 2005 is they stopped using the Morryde IS and went to the Morryde RE which has less travel so the 2x4 square tubing was not necessary as with the twin Dexter 10K axles. They still offered the twin Dexters after 2005 but only as an option.