Lithium versus Lead Acid

[oldjohnt]

I came across this video recently in which an expert discussed and compared the differences, advantages and disadvantages of Lithium versus Lead Acid/AGM batteries and I found it interesting plus learned a few things I hadn't considered before. If anyone is considering an upgrade they may or may not find this helpful. NOTE its long and perhaps boring to some, but as an electrical engineer and on the techy nerdy side I (ONLY the messenger, I'm not taking sides or standing by anything in the video) enjoyed it. I also took notice and considered some of the information MAY BE OUTDATED (Video is recent BUT is he talking Lithium Ion NOT the latest Lithium Iron Phosphate ??) yet there still appears some relevant information, IE a person needs to do his homework and research and not ONLY listen to advertising.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMf4tBAeMIE

John T    Long retired n rusty EE who still enjoys sparky chat

Edited October 7, 2019 by oldjohnt

[jcussen]

It is outdated, some cannot accept new technology, The famous Handy Bob still thinks lithium ion is just a fad. You can get into trouble discharging or overcharging any type of battery. And buying and installing any battery system without the proper safeguards can get you in trouble. Some will buy raw lithium cells and expect them to work as is, Wrong. To build any type of battery storage system, you need to know what you are doing. Especially with lithium, you must have a proper battery management system. I am not an expert, so I bought lithium ion batteries that have a BMS built into each one. Can't overcharge, overdischarge, overheat or experience any other problem associated with non regulated lithium batteries. If the BMS detects a problem, it just disconnects the battery. If you are using a Volt, or Leaf, Tesla  battery pack, or cells without a BMS,  it behooves you to do your homework, and make sure you have and understand how to use the BMS. It is still relatively new tech, so will require a learning curve. He does make some good points on  solar panels.

 

 

Early Tesla's did have several battery fires. Tesla identified the problem and issued a OTA software update to solve the problem. They are coming up on 400000 Model 3's sold in the last 3 years with no reports of  a battery fire.

[GlennWest]

and the ones I just got have bms on them.

[oldjohnt]

2 hours ago, jcussen said:

And buying and installing any battery system without the proper safeguards can get you in trouble. Some will buy raw lithium cells and expect them to work as is, Wrong. To build any type of battery storage system, you need to know what you are doing

AMEN to that jc. A person should do their homework and research and when in doubt (especially where fire and life safety is concerned) consult trained experienced professionals !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 John T   Fun sparky chatting with yall

[fly2low]

Quote

 

That is the primary reason I had AM Solar do my install.  It was during a time in my life where I was too busy with work to do the proper research to do it myself

[Sehc]

All lithium iron phosphate batteries are lithium ion. Not all lithium ion batteries are lithium iron phosphate.

[Randyretired]

14 hours ago, oldjohnt said:

AMEN to that jc. A person should do their homework and research and when in doubt (especially where fire and life safety is concerned) consult trained experienced professionals !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 John T   Fun sparky chatting with yall

I was the managing partner in a company that used a lot of lithium ion batteries in our products.  One of our problems was how sensitive the voltages are.  Our setup managed the voltage through software but the problem was the hardware was not always able to detect small voltage fluctuations.  We had to reduce our charge voltages and increase our cutoff voltages to avoid  occasional sporadic  failures.  Thus reducing the capacity capabilities of the batteries.  Since the voltage parameters are so small even a .1 volt difference for charging and cutoff made a significant reduction in battery performance. These batteries are not simple to manage without sophisticated equipment and managing expertise. 

[jcussen]

Tesla has produce over 3/4 of million lithium ion powered cars since 2012. No one but Tesla knowns how many complete battery failures they have had, but most feel a very small amount.  Current cars have an 8 year 120000 mile  battery/drivetrain replacement warranty, There are now Teslas on the road with over 400000 miles.They do have a fairly sophisticated system involving cooling and heating the batteries when charging and discharging.

I am sure that Battle Born has sold thousands, or 100 of thousands of LI batteries by now, and have never seen a less than glowing report on any of them. These are basically drop in replacement batteries, charging profiles must be changed, but once set up, require no further maintenance. They have a 10 year replacement warranty. 

 

Edited October 8, 2019 by jcussen

[ALLOY]

9 hours ago, jcussen said:

Tesla has produce over 3/4 of million lithium ion powered cars since 2012. No one but Tesla knowns how many complete battery failures they have had, but most feel a very small amount.  Current cars have an 8 year 120000 mile  battery/drivetrain replacement warranty, There are now Teslas on the road with over 400000 miles.They do have a fairly sophisticated system involving cooling and heating the batteries when charging and discharging.

I am sure that Battle Born has sold thousands, or 100 of thousands of LI batteries by now, and have never seen a less than glowing report on any of them. These are basically drop in replacement batteries, charging profiles must be changed, but once set up, require no further maintenance. They have a 10 year replacement warranty. 

 

I think there's more to what Mark is saying and allot is being spent on Lithium PR.  

I know of 3 BB failures. The customer service was 110% and the batteries they received were upgraded to the latest version so the people would give BB good reviews but it doesn't change the fact that the batteries failed.   

When I was looking installing Victron Lithium the battery protection system (on top of the BMS) was extensive. I dropped the idea of Lithium once I got into figuring the heating below 34F and shutting the solar system down if the batteries were below 34F.  

 

[jcussen]

1 hour ago, ALLOY said:

I think there's more to what Mark is saying and allot is being spent on Lithium PR.  

I know of 3 BB failures. The customer service was 110% and the batteries they received were upgraded to the latest version so the people would give BB good reviews but it doesn't change the fact that the batteries failed.   

When I was looking installing Victron Lithium the battery protection system (on top of the BMS) was extensive. I dropped the idea of Lithium once I got into figuring the heating below 34F and shutting the solar system down if the batteries were below 34F.  

 I am pretty sure there are some lead acid batteries failures also, call Interstate when your 5 year old LA battery shorts a cell or you run it down to 9 volts a couple of times, and see if you get 110% satisfaction. I use a 20 dollar 200 watt box heater with a 9 dollar 32 degree thermocube to keep my batteries above 32 f., not a big deal. Battleborn's will supply power down  to -4F before shutting off. and automatically shut off charging to them at  24f. just in case your heater fails. Lithium technology has made leaps and bounds in the last several years. Really don't think it would be cost effective for manufacturers to give these warranties unless they had some confidence in their products. Have had my battleborn's for 4 years now, a lot on the Foretravel forums also have them and have heard of one battery failure, which as you say, 110% service, new battery overnighted at no expense. 

 

Reason I am a Victron and Tesla fan. OTA firmware updates when new developments.  My Tesla went from 5.1 to 4.6 second 0-60 times, and range from 310 to 325 because of a OTA software update. Used to have to go to Summit and pay hundreds for hardware to see that kind of increase.

BTW. Tesla has $0 actual advertising budget. Elon Musk's reputation and word of mouth has made the Tesla Model 3 the best selling luxury car in the US. Anyone want some cool aid?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by jcussen

[ALLOY]

1 hour ago, jcussen said:

I use a 20 dollar 200 watt box heater with a 9 dollar 32 degree thermocube to keep my batteries above 32 f., not a big deal.

200W is allot of power to put towards batteries while dry camping in the winter.  

 

 

 

[packnrat]

i will stick to my 18,000gw hr gen that i keep off site.

[jcussen]

10 hours ago, ALLOY said:

200W is allot of power to put towards batteries while dry camping in the winter.  

Batteries produce a little heat when being charged or discharged. Batteries and heater are in an insulated compartment so heater seldom runs. Bigger problem is hot weather, had to install a blower in the compartment to keep temps down. 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by jcussen

[dewilso]

I’d like to know more about the BB failures Alloy, can you provide any info ?

[ALLOY]

Nothing catastrophic other than that BB doesn't provided any info. 

[theboondork]

I swapped out my four Trojan lead acid batteries for four lithium iron 100 amp BattleBorn batteries about two years ago and have been very happy with the results. They're extremely lightweight, my solar panels charge them up quicker than the lead acid batteries, their zero maintenance, I can take them down to 90% discharge without damaging them, and there supposed to have a longer useful life than lead acid batteries.

There's more good things about them than that, in fact I believe they beat lead acid batteries on almost any criteria except one.... Cost, it takes a while to get over the sticker shock, I'm still working on it.

theboondork.com

 

[jcussen]

2 hours ago, theboondork said:

I swapped out my four Trojan lead acid batteries for four lithium iron 100 amp BattleBorn batteries about two years ago and have been very happy with the results. They're extremely lightweight, my solar panels charge them up quicker than the lead acid batteries, their zero maintenance, I can take them down to 90% discharge without damaging them, and there supposed to have a longer useful life than lead acid batteries.

There's more good things about them than that, in fact I believe they beat lead acid batteries on almost any criteria except one.... Cost, it takes a while to get over the sticker shock, I'm still working on it.

theboondork.com

 

But just remember you will have 10 or 15 or maybe even 20 years to get over it. By that time, LI may not give you sticker shock.

Edited October 11, 2019 by jcussen