2008 VOLVO VNL 780 - D16 ENGINE NOT CRANKING

[Refuzn-To-Grow-Up]

Hello to all. 

It has been a while since I posted here.  I am looking for some folks, who are smarter than me (which is not saying too much LOL), to help me figure out why my engine does not crank.  In the past, I would reach out to Mr. Seas (Scott Almquist) for electrical help.  Sadly, Scott passed away.  I miss him as a friend and as a "go to techie."

I have a 2008 Volvo VNL with D16 engine and an I-shift transmission.  Due some personal issues, it has been "sitting" at my house way to too long.  I need to get back on the road!.  I would start it up about every month or so.  I had a battery tender plugged in all the time to keep batteries charged.  The batteries were about five years old and I knew they were due for replacement.

When I went to start the motor, nothing happened.  I checked the batteries and they were at 7 volts.  

Today, I cleaned all of the terminals and replaced the four batteries.  I started the on board generator and let it run for a while.  When I turned the key to start the D16 engine, nothing happened.  The engine did not crank.

So here is what I know so far.

I waited for the computer to go through its start up sequence and then turned the key to crank.  The engine did NOT crank.  The dash lights all shut off.  The battery voltage (13.6 volts) did not drop.  It is acting like no signal is going to the starter motor telling it to start the engine.

Other than low air pressure for the system and transmission, there were no faults.

I have a power shut off switch that shuts down all of the power to the truck.   There are two mega fuses in the battery compartment, one for negative and one for positive cables (from the battery).

When I tested the shut off switch, the voltage going into the shut off switch read 12.71.  The voltage coming out of the sut off switch was 12.68.  So, there is a little voltage drop across the shut off switch.

The voltage on the mega fuses was the same on the input and the output.  So, there was no voltage drop across the fuses

The computer recognizes when the I-Shift is not in gear.  So, ithe I-shift shifter is "talking" to the computer.

To summarize, I turn the key to start the engine but the engine does not crank.  The dash lights go completely off.  I mean "lights out." There is no voltage drop when I try to crank the engine.  If there was some short, I would expect to see a voltage drop.

I have not yet checked the brake pedal switch.  As I recall (it has been a while since I drove the "Big Boy"), I had to have brakes applied and the transmission in neutral to start the engine.

I am not "stuck" away from home.  There is no urgency.  The Big Boy is sitting in the driveway of my home.  I am planning a trip sometime in May.

I am in Anaheim, California.  If anyone is local and wants to drop by, your help would be very much appreciated.

Jim Dromi

(714) 821-5820

 

 

[spindrift]

A truck that has sat is an invitation to four footed, furry monsters.  These little devils love to chew on things, especially plastic wire insulation.  I'd start by checking all exposed wires and grounds.

[Refuzn-To-Grow-Up]

Oh that's not good.  I'll check for rodent poop and damaged wires. 

I sure do hope that you are wrong because that sounds like a very expensive nightmarish problem.

[spindrift]

I'd love to be wrong.

[Randyretired]

When everything shuts down when the key is turned to start typically indicates a bad connection.   When this happened to my Volvo it turned out to be a bad positive cable going to the starter.  Found it by reading the cable at the starter when another tried to start it.  The voltage was good until the key was turned.  Then nothing.  Jumped around the cables one at a time.  When the positive was jumped the starter turned.

[rickeieio]

X2 what Randy wrote.  I'd start by taking the wires off the starter solenoid and cleaning them, checking for signs of poor connection or any green crusty stuff.  If any of the nuts come off too easily, that'll likely be the trouble spot.

[Refuzn-To-Grow-Up]

1 hour ago, Randyretired said:

When everything shuts down when the key is turned to start typically indicates a bad connection.   When this happened to my Volvo it turned out to be a bad positive cable going to the starter.  Found it by reading the cable at the starter when another tried to start it.  The voltage was good until the key was turned.  Then nothing.  Jumped around the cables one at a time.  When the positive was jumped the starter turned.

Since I was sitting in driver's seat, I only noticed the dash gauge lights turn off down.  Maybe the dash gauge lights are supposed to turn off during the crank mode and I never noticed it.

Would someone start their engine and observe if the dash gauge lights shut off during cranking.  Thanks.

I will measure volts at the starter motor while trying to crank.

 

[Refuzn-To-Grow-Up]

11 minutes ago, rickeieio said:

X2 what Randy wrote.  I'd start by taking the wires off the starter solenoid and cleaning them, checking for signs of poor connection or any green crusty stuff.  If any of the nuts come off too easily, that'll likely be the trouble spot.

The cable lugs that were connected to the battery was NASTY.  I cleaned all cable ends and the buss bar with a wire brush. 

I will clean all the cable ends, the maxi fuse connections and the shut off switch connections.

The truck is coming up on 20 years old and it spent its working life in Canada.

[Refuzn-To-Grow-Up]

Does anyone know if there is a fuse and a relay (maybe located in the dash fuse box) that sends power to the starter motor solenoid?

Even these older trucks have so many computers on them, I am wondering if the computer sends a signal (through a fuse) to a relay coil and the relay contacts then send power to the starter solenoid.  A good place to install such a fuse and relay would be in the dash fuse panel.

[Randyretired]

In my case it was a defective wire.  I cleaned both ends of the wire but that didn't fix it.  It was internal to the wire.

[Jaydrvr]

Since the voltage is not dropping when you turn the key, it appears you're not getting any current to the starter. That suggests to me that your starter relay isn't working. It's on the front side of the firewall, just down and to the right (passenger side) of the steering column - at least on my first gen truck, plus others I've seen. In my experience, it's common for the dash lights to go out while cranking, probably to conserve cranking amps. Jay

Edited January 14 by Jaydrvr

[Refuzn-To-Grow-Up]

2 minutes ago, Jaydrvr said:

Since the voltage is not dropping when you turn the key, it appears you're not getting any current to the starter. That suggests to me that your starter relay isn't working. It's on the front side of the firewall, just down and to the right (passenger side) of the steering column - at least on my first gen truck, plus others I've seen. Jay

Thanks.  I will look for it tomorrow and check it out. 

Since it is in the engine compartment, I am guessing it might be one of those round metal can solenoids, as opposed to the plastic relays that I saw in the dash fuse box.

 

[NeverEasy]

Did not have schematics specific to Gen 2, 2007.  These are for 2006. 

 

 

 

Edited January 14 by NeverEasy
no second picture

[NeverEasy]

Power and Ground.  

 

[NeverEasy]

Ignition Power Supply.

 

[Jaydrvr]

4 hours ago, Refuzn-To-Grow-Up said:

Thanks.  I will look for it tomorrow and check it out. 

Since it is in the engine compartment, I am guessing it might be one of those round metal can solenoids, as opposed to the plastic relays that I saw in the dash fuse box.

 

The ones I've dealt with are black plastic and look like the ones inside the dash, in the fuse panel. Jay

[SuiteSuccess]

Chet (Never Easy) is on the case! 😊. If anyone can help you figure this out remotely, he is your guy.  He helped me figure out an obscure relay problem in my 2006 and actually had the appropriate replacement relay in his stash that he sent me.

[NeverEasy]

 

I agree with Jay and Randy about a bad connection.  At low current draw (no starting current), dash works.  Hit the starter and the high current through a poor connection will open the circuit. 

If I were to start working on this, I would put a meter on the hot wire to the solenoid and insure there is 12 + volts.  Keep the meter on the solenoid and have someone try to crank the truck.  If the voltage stays good, keep moving away from that through the system and do if further down the line. 

For a quick test, I would put a 12AWG wire on the positive side of the battery and run it to the positive post of the dash CB post.  See if that makes a difference to the ignition.  If that did not change anything, move the 12AWG wire to the negative posts of the battery and CB post and try that.  This can as easily be a bad ground issue as a positive voltage problem OR a bad connection to the dash.  Meaning not necessarily one of those monster cables to/from the battery.

Carl. 

Last we worked on your issue, you found a path to a manual for your truck.  If you could direct me and Refuzn to your path to a manual for his truck, that might help us track this down.  Will add the ground schematic to this post from an '06 year truck.

 

Edited January 15 by NeverEasy
Typo

[Refuzn-To-Grow-Up]

Thank you all for the help.

Due to some work emergencies, I was not able to work on the problem today.  I will get back on it tomorrow morning at daybreak.

I was up late last night trying to find starter circuit schematics for my truck and "attending" YouTube University classes.  I learned that a lot of truckers are/were experiencing electrical issues with their Volvos.

I have another question.  When I initially tried to start the motor (with the old batteries), the battery voltage was about 7 volts.  I did not discovery the low voltage problem until after engine would not start and I put a voltmeter on the batteries.  

I am not a electrical engineer type person, but I do remember the formula of Watts = volts x amps. 

Could the low voltage (one half normal) resulted in a very high amp draw (twice normal) and the high amp draw blew a fuse, circuit breaker or a fusible link in the starter circuit?

 

 

[NeverEasy]

Refuzn, I doubt it.  7 volts would mean there was not enough battery amps available behind it to do any damage.  

I can't post PDFs here.  PM me an email account and I will send you three manuals of the electrical system.  I do have two 2007 manuals (different build dates) for ground and 12V terminal locations and service procedures.  The full set of electricals I have are 2006 (Carl's truck).  When you get the PDFs, open the one that starts with 2006.  Print pages 7 and 8.  The ones in the manual are orientated 90 degrees out and hard to read.

Anyone else here that wants these manuals, PM me with an email address.

Chet

[Refuzn-To-Grow-Up]

When I was a young man, Mark, one of my best friends was killed when the VW bus that he was working on shifted on the work stands (I was told that he used wooden milk crates for his work stands!).  Mark was pinned by the bus and suffocated because he could not move, breath or scream for help.  Ever since then, I am unable to work under a vehicle, without thinking about Mark  So, I am postponing checking the cable connection on the starter motor until the very end.

Based upon what you folks have been telling me (poor cable connections), I am shifting my attention to the battery cutoff switch, which was installed by the Volvo dealer, after I purchased the truck.  See the attached link.  I even posted in this link.   

The cable lugs on the switch look pretty bad.  So, I will clean the connections and connect the cables directly to the battery to see if the motor will crank.  While attending "class" at "YouTube University," I saw that one trucker posted about having electrical problems that he traced to the poor connections on the cut off switch.

I just checked the wiring on the shut off switch and the starter motor is wired such that all of the starter motor current goes through the cutoff switch.  I would have wired the starter motor cable directly to the battery, as is suggested in the attached post.

If the motor starts, with the cutoff switch bypassed, I will remove the switch, clean the switch terminals and check the resistance.  I will replace the switch and wire the starter motor cable directly to the battery.  The starter motor current draw, to turn over a 16 liter diesel motor, has to be huge!

 

 

 

[Refuzn-To-Grow-Up]

Forgot to add.  Before I do any disassembly and cleaning, I am going to connect a voltmeter to the switched side of the switch and measure voltage while trying to crank the engine.

Then, regardless of the outcome of the above test, I will clean the terminals on the cables and switch and check resistance of the switch.

[Wrknrvr]

      There could be six ground wires on the engine side of the firewall.

 

   Three on each side of the engine. On the passenger side they are easy to find. I believe they are located about the bottom of the air filter for the engine. They are smaller wires, but look for them.

   On the drivers side I think it takes some searching for them. But I think you will find them there.

   I looked quick in the resource Guide. But did not see them.   I believe these grounds are from inside the cab?

 

    Also they maybe a relay on the drivers side near those three ground wire studs.

   Just thinking 

[Refuzn-To-Grow-Up]

Since I was in this deep, I decided to check the cut off switch status and clean the cable lugs.  This Volvo is going on 20 years old.

SHUT-OFF SWITCH:  The nut on the switched side of the shut off switch was only finger tight.  The nut and washer were welded together.  I have no idea how the starter motor could even turn over that big diesel engine with this loose connection, but it did.  In hindsight, the starter motor always seemed to be struggling.  The switch was installed by a local Volvo dealer.  Due to other issues, I stopped going to that dealer years ago.  Nuff said!

The switch (Flaming River brand) is rated for 250 amps continuous and 2,500 ammps (for five seconds) max surge.  I decide to remove the humongous starter motor cable from the switch and connected the cable directly to the battery. 

For those who might want to install a cut off switch, I attached photos.  I had the switch installed to stop the parasitic losses, on the battery, when the Volvo was in storage. 

CABLE WORK.  I wire brushed the cable lugs that connected to the shut off switch. The lugs were pretty nasty. 

Tomorrow, I will clean up the cable lugs that go to and from the mega fuses (one fuse for the positive cable and one fuse for the negative cable) that are located in the battery compartment. I will pull the mega fuses and check their connections.  I am guessing that these connection points are just as nasty as the cables lugs that I cleaned today.

FIREWALL GROUNDS AND RELAYS:  I had to get back to work, so I stopped with the above-mentioned work.  I will get back on it tomorrow morning.  I did take a photo of the left firewall.  See attached.

STARTER CABLE:  I looked under the truck (recall, I hate going under vehicles), but could not see the starter motor. Tomorrow, I will try to locate it.

NEW INFORMATION:  When I turn the key to the crank (start) position, I hear (I put in my hearing aides, LOL) relays clicking and clacking in the dash fuse box.  When I turn the ignition key to the crank position, only the dash gauges go out.  Everything else seems to still have power.

When I release the key from the crank position, back to the run position, the Volvo goes into its "start up" sequence as though I had just turned the key to the "on" position for the first time.  

STATUS:  The Volvo is still a "NO CRANK."  :(

[Refuzn-To-Grow-Up]

I just went out and looked for the studs on the firewall.  I located some on left side firewall on the left side of the steering column.  

I'll check those out tomorrow.  

The wire connections sure do look purty now.  Too bad I don't hear the beast spring to life when I turn the key . . . . . .