50 Amp RV Receptacle Quality

[DanZemke]

2 hours ago, Kirk W said:

As another retired from the field, I'm always amazed by the "experts" who give electrical advice on forums.  😉

Alas,  that challenge isn't unique to electrical advice. 😏

[RV_]

4 hours ago, oldjohnt said:

RV, wow THANKS for all the great pictures links and info, great source for any newbies or non sparkies !!!!!!!!

QUESTION for you ? Do you happen to know if that 50M to 30F Dogbone Adapter has any internal 30 Amp Overcurrent Protection, fuse, breaker or fusible wire link perhaps ??

John T BSEE,JD  Retired yet ever curious power engineer 

YW! John any comment on the 50 amp outlet I have? I'd like your opinion.It has interesting materials for the contacts.

NEMA 14-50R Outlet

I never checked if that dog bone has overcurrent protection John. I would buy one of the testers with surge protection for <$50 if I was worried about that.

$29 combined surge protector and outlet tester

However, do you have a link to one so I can see specs and what one costs?

My thinking is I have circuit breakers before it in the pedestal and after it and in my rig's main breakers.

This question is for the currently active RVrs and I was quite frankly surprised had one of those "Why didn't they have these 27 years ago when we started fulltiming?" slap my forehead moments.

Thanks in advance.😊

Edited July 1, 2023 by RV_

[RV_]

4 hours ago, DanZemke said:

Alas,  that challenge isn't unique to electrical advice. 😏

💯🖖

[RV_]

6 hours ago, Kirk W said:

The best job of converting a class A from 30A to 50A that I have ever seen was done by a fellow who learned how on his own with no formal training or previous experience.  His work was better than the work of many licensed electricians that I have seen.

Kirk, even the best of us can make a mistake. But try to find an unlicensed electrician who has insurance for his work and is bonded for electrical work. Most states let you work on your own home without being licensed, and lots of AG and other exemptions. But I do not want farm buildings to burn down either when we have cows and goats on the property and a barn.

I choose to have insured and licensed. Unlicensed electricians in most states cannot be insured.

Excerpt:

Texas for example:

"media.inquiries@tdlr.texas.gov.
ELECTRICIANS CONSUMER PROTECTION

Don’t ever use the services of an unlicensed electrician – your safety depends on it! Anyone who offers to provide electrical contracting services in Texas must be licensed by TDLR and they must use TDLR-licensed electricians to perform the work.

Licensed electrical contractors must either hold a license as a master electrician or employ a master. They are required to carry insurance, which protects you as a consumer on completed jobs.

It’s important to hire a licensed electrical contractor because:
● they have passed examinations covering the National Electrical codes;
● they have been educated on Texas laws and rules;
● they have undergone criminal background checks; and,
● they have insurance to cover any damages that might happen when the job is completed.
BEFORE HIRING SOMEONE:
● Get bids: You should always get more than one bid before deciding who to hire.
● The bid should include their Texas electrical contractor license number (TECL 12345) and the department’s
contact information on the bid proposal.
● Make sure you have time to confirm that the electrical contractor’s license, and the license of the associated
master, are current and in good standing on our TDLR website. Go here (https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/
LicenseSearch/) to do that.
● Look at the truck: the TECL (Texas Electrician Contractor) license number should be visible.
● Look at the license they carry in their wallet: a journeyman or master electrician can perform work alone. An
apprentice electrician requires the onsite supervision of a more qualified licensee, such as a journeyman or
a master electrician.
● Confirm that the license is real by checking our website: https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/LicenseSearch/.
● Before signing the contract for work: Ask for references from people they’ve performed work for and follow
up by checking those references.
● Payment: Don’t pay for a job in full before the job is completed. That includes any permits that should be
closed out with a final inspection.
Report unlicensed activity here: https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/complaints/.
WHAT QUESTIONS SHOULD I ASK WHEN I’M
HIRING AN ELECTRICAL CONTRACTOR?
● Are you licensed and certified? (Be sure to look at their license)
● Do you have general liability and worker’s compensation insurance? How much do you have? (Be sure
to look at the certificate)
● What’s the address of your physical office? (Be sure to check whether it’s legitimate)
● Do you have references I can contact? (Be sure to talk with them)
TDLR AAG FORM-201 Aug. 2020
TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF LICENSING & REGULATION"

Source: https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/media/pdf/Consumer Protection Electricians.pdf

Excerpt:

"Problems with Homeowner’s Insurance

Your insurance provider may refuse to compensate for any damage resulting from unlawful electrical work. If a fire started from unpermitted work, the insurance adjuster could deny a claim outright."

Source: https://homeinspectioninsider.com/electrical-work-without-permit/

A licensed electrician can make mistakes, but my opinion is they are less likely than DYI unlicensed electrical wannabes. If someone is not licensed and insured when I decide I am hiring out a job, no one steps in to do an estimate without showing me current license and insurance.

It is no longer a money thing for us but who offers the most experience with my job type for the buck with licensing and insurance.

Online or off if someone can't do their own work unlicensed on their own property legally I strongly urge my friends and folks we built steel buildings for to use only licensed insured tradesmen and women. But that is only my opinion and YMMV!

 

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by RV_

[D&J]

29 minutes ago, RV_ said:

Kirk, even the best of us can make a mistake. But try to find an unlicensed electrician who has insurance for his work and is bonded for electrical work. Most states let you work on your own home without being licensed, and lots of AG and other exemptions. But I do not want farm buildings to burn down either when we have cows and goats on the property and a barn.

I choose to have insured and licensed. Unlicensed electricians in most states cannot be insured.

Excerpt:

Texas for example:

"media.inquiries@tdlr.texas.gov.
ELECTRICIANS CONSUMER PROTECTION

Don’t ever use the services of an unlicensed electrician – your safety depends on it! Anyone who offers to provide electrical contracting services in Texas must be licensed by TDLR and they must use TDLR-licensed electricians to perform the work.

Licensed electrical contractors must either hold a license as a master electrician or employ a master. They are required to carry insurance, which protects you as a consumer on completed jobs.

It’s important to hire a licensed electrical contractor because:
● they have passed examinations covering the National Electrical codes;
● they have been educated on Texas laws and rules;
● they have undergone criminal background checks; and,
● they have insurance to cover any damages that might happen when the job is completed.
BEFORE HIRING SOMEONE:
● Get bids: You should always get more than one bid before deciding who to hire.
● The bid should include their Texas electrical contractor license number (TECL 12345) and the department’s
contact information on the bid proposal.
● Make sure you have time to confirm that the electrical contractor’s license, and the license of the associated
master, are current and in good standing on our TDLR website. Go here (https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/
LicenseSearch/) to do that.
● Look at the truck: the TECL (Texas Electrician Contractor) license number should be visible.
● Look at the license they carry in their wallet: a journeyman or master electrician can perform work alone. An
apprentice electrician requires the onsite supervision of a more qualified licensee, such as a journeyman or
a master electrician.
● Confirm that the license is real by checking our website: https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/LicenseSearch/.
● Before signing the contract for work: Ask for references from people they’ve performed work for and follow
up by checking those references.
● Payment: Don’t pay for a job in full before the job is completed. That includes any permits that should be
closed out with a final inspection.
Report unlicensed activity here: https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/complaints/.
WHAT QUESTIONS SHOULD I ASK WHEN I’M
HIRING AN ELECTRICAL CONTRACTOR?
● Are you licensed and certified? (Be sure to look at their license)
● Do you have general liability and worker’s compensation insurance? How much do you have? (Be sure
to look at the certificate)
● What’s the address of your physical office? (Be sure to check whether it’s legitimate)
● Do you have references I can contact? (Be sure to talk with them)
TDLR AAG FORM-201 Aug. 2020
TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF LICENSING & REGULATION"

Source: https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/media/pdf/Consumer Protection Electricians.pdf

Excerpt:

"Problems with Homeowner’s Insurance

Your insurance provider may refuse to compensate for any damage resulting from unlawful electrical work. If a fire started from unpermitted work, the insurance adjuster could deny a claim outright."

Source: https://homeinspectioninsider.com/electrical-work-without-permit/

A licensed electrician can make mistakes, but my opinion is they are less likely than DYI unlicensed electrical wannabes. If someone is not licensed and insured when I decide I am hiring out a job, no one steps in to do an estimate without showing me current license and insurance.

It is no longer a money thing for us but who offers the most experience with my job type for the buck with licensing and insurance.

Online or off if someone can't do their own work unlicensed on their own property legally I strongly urge my friends and folks we built steel buildings for to use only licensed insured tradesmen and women. But that is only my opinion and YMMV!

 

 

 

Interesting post 😊 before I retired from my Electric & Refrigeration HVAC business I had to hold a Class A Electrical Contractor license along with mutable certificates to stay in business. The most expensive one was my electrical license with the cost of the it, cost of continuing education, permit costs and the most expensive part was the insurance and bonding. I couldn't compete in most of the residential unless a new service was involved so I did mostly new house construction and commercial where the unlicensed people couldn't work. I also did mostly commercial and new home construction in the refrigeration and HVAC end. 

If you get prices from a non license and insured and one that's fully licensed and insured consider the overhead the the licensed professional has to deal with and I'm not just talking about the fees but the business insurance on a commercial vehicle compared to the personal truck the unlicensed person is driving isn't cheap. Every year I got audited by my insurance company to see how much liability I exposed them to and had my rates adjusted for that year and the next.

When I first retired and started workcamping I made the mistake of telling them what I did and I got so tied of internet electricians at parks that I no longer said anything when applying, life's to short.

I sold most of my equipment but keep enough to do my own work and maybe very close friends. I just installed a new inverter driven heat pump in our house and the duck work was pain without my sheet metal shop but I got it done. Wife asked if I missed it and I said no way.

Denny

[Payroll Person]

I rarely tell people irl what I do or what I have done. When I share my skills, I do not want it to be an obligation. I relearned this issue when I pointed out how unsafe the back of mh’s are and the driver has to act like the only safety feature. Now that our granddaughter can ride facing forward, she can ride, and goes in the front seat (which is subject to federal standards) - since the back - even where I added my own safe belt system - is worse. (Racing background so I know how to install belts properly.)

[oldjohnt]

On 7/1/2023 at 3:45 PM, RV_ said:

YW! John any comment on the 50 amp outlet I have? I'd like your opinion.It has interesting materials for the contacts.

NEMA 14-50R Outlet

    1) Mornin RV, WOW love your info and good questions, I'm sorry if we may bore the others, but hey you asked so here goes lol

     Absent any hard core testing like Mike Sokol does, I can ONLY say/guess that receptacle looks better than the cheapest Seven Dollar Leviton 

On 7/1/2023 at 3:45 PM, RV_ said:

I never checked if that dog bone has overcurrent protection John. I would buy one of the testers with surge protection for <$50 if I was worried about that.

      2)  My question (does 50M to 30F dogbone adapter have 30 amps of overcurrent protection for the 30 amp load side) wasn't concerned as much with short term voltage spikes or surges VERSUS long term overcurrent protection for the only 30 Amp rated power cord. I have no idea if it does or not and not surprised you would off hand, just asking no more no less, I'm just curious lol.. Mike Sokol recently showed off (cant find it now) and suggested use of a 50M to lower current Dogbone Adapter (On Amazon I believe) that indeed has less current Circuit Breakers for protecting lower ampacity cords or other smaller loads SINCE THE PEDESTAL BREAKER IS A WHOPING 50 AMPS !!!!!!!!! YIKES you DO NOT want 20 or 30 Amp rated wiring connected to a 50 Amp Breaker !!! Thats NEC Overcurrent Protection 101 

On 7/1/2023 at 3:45 PM, RV_ said:

$29 combined surge protector and outlet tester

However, do you have a link to one so I can see specs and what one costs?

My thinking is I have circuit breakers before it in the pedestal and after it and in my rig's main breakers.

 3)  As I'm sure you ALREADY KNOW WELL a cheap Surge Protector is ONLY a surge protector while a full blown much more expensive EMS is a complete different electrical protection device that has many more features.. Your money your RV your risk your choice, I hesitate to list brand names..

   The circuit breaker in the pedestal for the 50 amp outlet is 50 Amps DUH and the Main Circuit Breaker in your 30 Amp RV Panel is 30 Amp Another DUH to limit and protect current flow that's downstream AFTER the Panels Main Breaker. That Main Panel Breaker controls ONLY current flow THROUGH IT,, NOT whats upstream ahead of it between pedestal and RV panel via the 30 Amp rated power cord  DUH 

   My question concerns if the current in your 30 Amp rated Power Cord (which is exposed to outdoors, water, sharp rocks, run overs, and barefoot kids) AFTER 50 Amp Pedestal Breaker BEFORE the RV 30 Amp Main Breaker is limited and protected at 30 Amps ?

   There ya go RV hope this helps and sorry if it bores others. As always DO NOT take my word for it, I'm long retired n rusty as a power distribution design engineer but believe this remains true yet today. I just try my best to help

 Best wishes to all, be safe take care, HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY God Bless America

 John T BSEE,JD

 

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by oldjohnt

[Dutch_12078]

4 hours ago, oldjohnt said:

    1) Mornin RV, WOW love your info and good questions, I'm sorry if we may bore the others, but hey you asked so here goes lol

     Absent any hard core testing like Mike Sokol does, I can ONLY say/guess that receptacle looks better than the cheapest Seven Dollar Leviton 

      2)  My question (does 50M to 30F dogbone adapter have 30 amps of overcurrent protection for the 30 amp load side) wasn't concerned as much with short term voltage spikes or surges VERSUS long term overcurrent protection for the only 30 Amp rated power cord. I have no idea if it does or not and not surprised you would off hand, just asking no more no less, I'm just curious lol.. Mike Sokol recently showed off (cant find it now) and suggested use of a 50M to lower current Dogbone Adapter (On Amazon I believe) that indeed has less current Circuit Breakers for protecting lower ampacity cords or other smaller loads SINCE THE PEDESTAL BREAKER IS A WHOPING 50 AMPS !!!!!!!!! YIKES you DO NOT want 20 or 30 Amp rated wiring connected to a 50 Amp Breaker !!! Thats NEC Overcurrent Protection 101 

 3)  As I'm sure you ALREADY KNOW WELL a cheap Surge Protector is ONLY a surge protector while a full blown much more expensive EMS is a complete different electrical protection device that has many more features.. Your money your RV your risk your choice, I hesitate to list brand names..

   The circuit breaker in the pedestal for the 50 amp outlet is 50 Amps DUH and the Main Circuit Breaker in your 30 Amp RV Panel is 30 Amp Another DUH to limit and protect current flow that's downstream AFTER the Panels Main Breaker. That Main Panel Breaker controls ONLY current flow THROUGH IT,, NOT whats upstream ahead of it between pedestal and RV panel via the 30 Amp rated power cord  DUH 

   My question concerns if the current in your 30 Amp rated Power Cord (which is exposed to outdoors, water, sharp rocks, run overs, and barefoot kids) AFTER 50 Amp Pedestal Breaker BEFORE the RV 30 Amp Main Breaker is limited and protected at 30 Amps ?

   There ya go RV hope this helps and sorry if it bores others. As always DO NOT take my word for it, I'm long retired n rusty as a power distribution design engineer but believe this remains true yet today. I just try my best to help

 Best wishes to all, be safe take care, HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY God Bless America

 John T BSEE,JD

 

 

John, are you ok with a 1 amp rated conductor connected to a 20 mp breaker? We all do that routinely with many devices. Multi-socket 120 VAC light fixtures for example, are routinely wired with 22 ga lamp cord rated at .92 amps. And I also note that the chassis wiring rating for 10 ga wire is 55 amps. A shorted 10 ga 30 amp RV extension cord will pop a 50 amp breaker. In the practical world, undersized wire is commonly connected to larger breakers. There are plenty of examples in all of our homes.

[oldjohnt]

  Good afternoon Dutch, good examples of what we all (professional as well as lay) know. Sure NEC allows the use of the types of devices you mentioned, I have no problem and had some good NEC instructors back in the day like Mike Holt and Joe McPartland of EC & M..Hey if what you say wasn't safe I can guarantee you they (were on the board) would NOT have permitted it !!!!!!!!!  

  I don't know if the 50 M to 30 F Dogbone Adapters RV uses have lower overcurrent protection which is why I asked him the question. I did find the 50M to 20F Dogbone Adapters Mike Sokol recommended as safer (they indeed have lower current breakers for the lower current outlets) here's the link, read what he has to say about it and his reasons...

A safer 50-amp to 20-amp adapter - by Mike Sokol (substack.com)

 Of course, the 30 Amp Receptacles where we plug our 30 Amp RV's and their 30 Amp rated cords have 30 Amp Circuit Breakers, while the 50 Amp RV pedestals use 50 Amp Breakers for our 50 Amp rated cords WELL DUH.. Ive NEVER seen a 30 Amp Pedestal Receptacle that used a 50 Amp Breaker !!!! But hey they may exist ?

 I think my question to RV is good to at least ask, since our RV power cords may be in water on sharp rocks or barefoot kids may walk on which is why they should perhaps have the correct overcurrent protection so if more current flows than they are rated for (could melt insulation) the breaker will trip. 50 Amps long term in wire rated for ONLY 30 could be a problem WHICH IS WHY I ASKED RV THE QUESTION. Hey if they make 50M to F Dogbone adpaters that have additional lower current breakers like above, maybe his or other manufacturers offer one that has 30 Amp protection for the 30 Amp Power Cords ????  I DONT KNOW BUT NO HARM IN ASKING.. Of course I support anyones free choice to use whatever breakers or dogbone adapaters he pleases, its his choice NOT mine or anyone here. 

PS YES a dead short in a 30 Amp RV cord will pop a 50 Amp Thermal Magnetic breaker instantly, but a resistive short (pinches, cuts, rocks, run overs) that approaches 50 Amps may NOT trip a 50 Amp breaker, yet can damage/melt the insulation grrrrrrrrrrrrr One sees barefoot kids, bikes, rocks and water near RV power cords !!!!!!!!!!!

 Thanks Dutch, great question and fun technical discussion even if we bore others lol. As always, it's a pleasure to sparky chat with you. Heck pulling out on the road is more hazardous than what dogbones we use but after a lifes work involving electrical safety one cant help but to ask questions and be safety conscious, I don't consider that a bad thing........Use what anyone likes is my thinking even if it may be OVER safe, better safe than sorry.. I asked RV if he has one cuz if they do make them (50M to 30F with 30A Brkr) Id sure consider purchasing as they are safer for sure even if its low risk or minimal difference...

 Have a Happy 4th of July Dutch and everyone, God bless you and yours

 John T  

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by oldjohnt

[RV_]

John, I had no idea so wanted to ask what you meant. You aren't boring John, to anyone. I had never heard of having over-current protection in a dog bone adapter, but also never looked.

Thanks for your patience and willingness to share without rancor. 😊

[oldjohnt]

6 minutes ago, RV_ said:

John, I had no idea so wanted to ask what you meant. You aren't boring John, to anyone. I had never heard of having over-current protection in a dog bone adapter, but also never looked.

Thanks for your patience and willingness to share without rancor

   Thanks for the kind words RV, glad to help. Here's a Dogbone Adapter with  over-current protection Mike Sokol recommends and his reasons why as a SAFER WAY as it plugs into 50 Amp Breaker protection but then in turn supplies smaller wire less current rated circuits. Hey no rancor here, Im glad to help NOT feud lol

A safer 50-amp to 20-amp adapter - by Mike Sokol (substack.com)

 Again people should use what THEY choose even if its safer or less safe ITS THEIR BUSINESS not any of ours GO FOR WHATEVER YOU LIKE..I dont know if anyone makes a 50M to 30F Dogbone with 30 Amp Overcurrent protection similar to Mikes 50M to 20F with overcurrent protection ???????????? 

 Happy Independence Day, God Bless America and everyone here

 John T BSEE,JD

 

[Ray,IN]

I have one of those (RV's post) 50A receptacle testers for quick N dirty  testing. If it displays anything but OK I grab my VOM and do the real testing. If that too results in good numbers, then I plug in the MH, and the built-in EMS will only  allow connection if it is satisfied everything is OK.

I am not an electrician; I did school myself in what to test for without frying me.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Ray,IN

[RV_]

John Sokol says about the 50-30 amp adapter that you asked about was fine without it. Where he suggested additional protection is with 50-15 amp adapter with multiple appliances plugged into that.

"However, the 30-amp main circuit breaker in your RV should be able to limit the current flow in the shore power cord to 30-amps and prevent overheating and a possible fire. So while it’s technically a code violation, it’s probably safe for your RV shore power cord."

He showed a pic of a 50 amp to multiple 15 amp outlets adapter.

Then he goes on to talk about folks with multiple SloCookers and grills etc all plugged into it in your link: https://rvelectricity.substack.com/p/a-safer-50-amp-to-20-amp-adapter?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email If I had any 15 amp appliance to plug in I sure would not disconnect my rig's 50 amp to power 15 amp stuff. That is what the two 15 amp outlets are for. I test them too. And would use them with appliances if needed and we carried good extension cords, 2 each. and we had two 15 amp GFCI outlets on the curb side of the rig as well.

In fact we never used that 30 amp to 15 amp adapter for any loads only for testing the outlets.

I could see that kind of overloads for part timers just out with 12 family members for a holiday and another loaded group with them next site over. But we were just us two and when full-time we used the propane grill and the RV stove inside and the microwave. If we used the SloCooker outside we used a heavy duty extension cord. 

When my wife did new home construction and flipped houses she had a 75' extension contractor's grade  cord that was so thick that it weighed too much to carry long distances.

Thanks John I learned a lot here.

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by RV_

[RV_]

23 minutes ago, Ray,IN said:

I am not an electrician; I did school myself in what to test for without frying me.

Me too. One hand in my pocket 😉

[oldjohnt]

12 hours ago, RV_ said:

Thanks John I learned a lot here.

You're certainly welcome and THANK YOU ALSO.   WOW you're really getting into and understanding this !!!!!!!!

 Here's even a bit more for you FYI: Obviously the Main 30 Amp Circuit Breaker in the RV Panel will limit the current flowing THROUGH that breaker causes by loads DOWNSTREAM AND AFTER IT to no more than 30 Amps  DUH 

 HOWEVER (1) It will NOT limit current flow in the RV power cord that occurs BEFORE AND AHEAD OF the panels main breaker caused perhaps by a short, a pinch, a run over sharp rocks, water immersion etc (that's the pedestal breakers job).. 30 Amp pedestal receptacles for 30 Amp RV power cords are protected with 30 NOT 50 Amp breakers in the pedestal ANOTHER DUH LOL 

HOWEVER (2) The 30 Amp Breaker in the RV parks power pedestal WILL LIMIT current in the cord (between pedestal and before panels main breaker) AND AFTER to no more than its 30 Amps rated ampacity so there's no melt down of the insulation. There's a reason why the RV park uses 30 Amp breakers for 30 Amp receptacles and 50 Amp for 50 Amp, otherwise if it were okay why not just use 50 amp breakers for 30 or 50 Amp RV's ?????

BOTTOM LINE I think (MY PROFESSIONAL OPINION) that's why Mike suggests use of the 50M to 20F Dogbone Adapter with circuit breakers so the lower ampacity wire/plugs/cords have 20 Amp NOT 50 Amp overcurrent protection. If 50 Amps were to flow in say 15, 20 or even 30 amp wires THAT CAN MELT INSUALTION AND CREATE A LIFE SAFERY HAZARD

WHICH IS BACK TO WHY I ASKED if your 50M to 30F Dogbone Adapter had overcurrent protection.. Hey if they make a 50 to 20 Dogbone WITH breakers maybe they make a 50 to 30 WITH breakers... SURE it will work fine if not and I'm NOT telling anyone what to use what risk to take,,,,,,,, that's THEIR decision. That being said I would err on the side of safety so IF ???  anyone made a 50 to 30 adapter with breakers (like the one Mike suggested) I for one would choose it. Again even if the risk of fire or life is minimal (LESS than driving down the road) its my opinion better be safe than sorry, but that's just me based on my life's work involving electrical safety and NEC instructions DO AS YALL PLEASE OF COURSE !!!!!!!!!!!!! 

 Thanks RV and Dutch (who correctly pointed out light gauge extension cord use is permissible) and everyone for a deep techy and FUN sparky chat, God Bless and protect yall and HAPPY 4TH OF JULY

 John T BSEE,JD

Edited July 3, 2023 by oldjohnt

[RV_]

John that makes sense. Have a great 4th John.

Safe Travels!

Edited July 3, 2023 by RV_