What source for electricity?

[Kirk W]

How much electricity would it take to power all cars if they were electric?

The US would need to produce 20-50% more electricity annually if all cars were electric vehicles.

[GlennWest]

With some many windmills in Texas surprised it only list natural gas

[Lou Schneider]

2 hours ago, GlennWest said:

With some many windmills in Texas surprised it only list natural gas

That map shows the primary source of power in each state. Natural gas is Texas's primary source of electricity at 47% of it's total.  20% comes from coal, 10% from nuclear and 1% from solar.  Wind power is tied with coal at 20%. 

This points out one of renewable energy's big drawbacks. Besides needing to keep conventional power plants spinning in hot standby to take over at a moment's notice - winds die down and clouds obstruct the sun - renewable energy needs lots of land to generate significant amounts of power.  Such land may be available in Texas, but not in the more densely populated areas of the country where the majority of the electricity is used.

https://comptroller.texas.gov/economy/fiscal-notes/2020/august/ercot.php

Edited April 28 by Lou Schneider

[GlennWest]

I was commenting on the graph. Only list NG for all of Texas

[Chalkie]

What surprised me on this map was number of states shown for nuclear power. It is actually higher than I thought since it seems to be so out of favor.

[sandsys]

1 hour ago, Lou Schneider said:

renewable energy needs lots of land to generate significant amounts of power.  Such land may be available in Texas, but not in the more densely populated areas of the country where the majority of the electricity is used.

https://comptroller.texas.gov/economy/fiscal-notes/2020/august/ercot.php

Solar on roofs is popular in the RV community. It works on sticks n bricks structures, too. There are a lot of roofs available in cities.

Linda

[GlennWest]

1 hour ago, Chalkie said:

What surprised me on this map was number of states shown for nuclear power. It is actually higher than I thought since it seems to be so out of favor.

Spent most of life in NC and visited SC a lot. Yes Nuclear is big there. Most of my welding jobs there were chemical and nuclear.

[Vladimir]

7 hours ago, sandsys said:

Solar on roofs is popular in the RV community. It works on sticks n bricks structures, too. There are a lot of roofs available in cities.

Yes, but that would mean that tax dollars would flow to individuals rather than corporations.  That doesn't work in today's political environment.

The state maps are pretty much meaningless since the power grids do NOT follow state boundaries.

Back in the 1990's the Sierra Club sued the Forest Service to stop its program of allowing the public to cut firewood to heat their homes. 

The suit was filed in Yakima County and in the initial brief to the Federal judge the Sierra Club noted that once people quit heating with firewood in Yakima County they would use "clean hydro power" to heat their homes.  Simply because, eastern Washington generates an enormous amount of electricity with the Columbia River dams.

I made a couple of phone calls to the utilities serving Yakima County and discovered that Yakima County electricity actually came from Colstrip, Montana at the coal fired generating plants. 

It was an interesting learning experience on how the electrical grid works in the northwest. 

Likewise, when it comes to wind and solar many sites show "generating capacity" which is not what was actually generated!!!  For example, the BPA site shows wind as having 10% of the "generating capacity" in the Pacific Northwest.

I actually called BPA and got the daily spreadsheets showing actually electricity generated by source.....wind came in at 1.4%.  That is a far cry from 10% shown on the BPA site as generating capacity.

The lawyers at the Natural Resources Defense Counsel published a paper that we would NOT need anymore electrical generating capacity since we could charge our electric cars at night. 

That would have worked in the 1960's.  I used the California historical grid data and quickly found out that TODAY with the de-industrialization of the US, California actually uses MORE ELECTRICITY at night than during the day.  It is not a huge number, but there is no free electricity available on the grid on night.

People cannot charge their EV's at home, we need to build charging stations for people to charge them at WORK.

Hmm, maybe we can start printing bumper stickers that say TURN OFF YOUR PORCH LIGHT, SO I CAN CHARGE MY EV.

The western electrical grid is an Alice in Wonderland story....oh wait, maybe White Rabbit by the Airplane is a better analogy.

Edited April 29 by Vladimir

[RV_]

On 4/28/2023 at 8:55 PM, Vladimir said:

Yes, but that would mean that tax dollars would flow to individuals rather than corporations.  That doesn't work in today's political environment.

snip

That would have worked in the 1960's.  I used the California historical grid data and quickly found out that TODAY with the de-industrialization of the US, California actually uses MORE ELECTRICITY at night than during the day.  It is not a huge number, but there is no free electricity available on the grid on night.

I agree that the national grid is, well, national. That's a good thing. Especially for folks who don't want a coal generating plant in their backyard. (NIMBY!)

However using your example of California I found that usage is way down during off-peak hours. You just say at night. So you are right if night was just 4-9.

Residential peak hours are 4pm to 9pm. If you are calling 4-9pm night. That leaves the rest of the night, 9pm to 6am for me to charge - 9 hours! Your peak hours may vary by state.

It drops to much less after 9pm thus the off-peak big discounts in electricity prices to residential homes on that type of plan. However most residents don't want to pay more during the day which you do in most states that have peak/off peak plans.

So I agree that use is less during peak hours of 4-9. However there is a giant drop from 9pm to morning.

I don't know about other brands but my Tesla can be set to charge whenever I want.

However, it does not need to be charged daily. That would be as silly as expecting ICE owners to drive 20 miles on a full tank of fuel and then fill up with a gallon or two every day! No one does that with EVs or ICE age engines. I charge a couple of times a month and

I just plug it in, then set it to charge later during off-peak hours on my Tesla Phone App.

Excerpt:

"What is a time-of-use (TOU) electricity rate plan?

Time-of-use (TOU) is a rate plan in which electricity rates vary according to the time of day, season and day type (weekday or weekend/holiday). Electricity prices are higher during peak demand hours and lower during off-peak hours. Peak times may vary by rate and/or energy provider but are generally defined as the hours between 4 to 9PM.* TOU plans support a cleaner power grid by encouraging energy use when renewable resources, like solar and wind power, are readily available. All TOU plans share a common theme: when electricity is used matters as much as how much electricity is used.

*Peak times may vary by rate and/or energy provider. Check with your local energy provider to understand the TOU time frames in your area.

How does Time Of Use (TOU) impact me as an electric vehicle owner?

Electric vehicle owners may benefit from switching to a Time Of Use (TOU) rate plan if they charge their vehicles overnight. Check with your local energy provider to understand the impacts."

Source: 2023 California Public Utilities Commission and California Energy Commission. Trademarks are property of their respective owners.Energy Upgrade California much more in the link:

https://energyupgradeca.org/time-of-use-faqs/

 

[RV_]

On 4/28/2023 at 8:55 PM, Vladimir said:

The lawyers at the Natural Resources Defense Counsel published a paper that we would NOT need anymore electrical generating capacity since we could charge our electric cars at night.

That would have worked in the 1960's.  I used the California historical grid data and quickly found out that TODAY with the de-industrialization of the US, California actually uses MORE ELECTRICITY at night than during the day.  It is not a huge number, but there is no free electricity available on the grid on night.

People cannot charge their EV's at home, we need to build charging stations for people to charge them at WORK.

 

Thanks so much for that source of The National Resources Defense Council. Here is an excerpt on topic from them:

"Lower utility costs

There’s a pretty straightforward explanation for how EVs can lower utility costs. One recent study looked at U.S. consumers’ electric bills in the service regions with the greatest number of EVs on the road. Researchers found that, between 2012 and 2021, EV drivers actually drove down electricity rates for all customers. That’s because people generally plug in their EVs overnight, when electricity demand (and therefore, pressure on the grid) is already low. Traditionally, utility companies would just pocket the extra earnings from these off-peak hours, but “revenue decoupling” policies can redirect these revenues to customers in the form of reduced bills. While these policies are not in place in every state, more and more are introducing them. This promise of cheaper electricity is especially good news for low-income U.S. households, who spend an average of 8.6 percent of their income on energy, nearly three times that of higher-earning households." 

Much more info at the The National Resources Defense Council website here:

https://www.nrdc.org/stories/why-electric-vehicle-revolution-can-benefit-everyone

You make references to websites with no links. Then draw conclusions to fit your premise that EVs will overload the grid.

Tesla Energy is building their biggest grid backup battery to date in Texas.

CATL in China and Tesla will be debuting m3p batteries. More in another thread.

 

[Kirk W]

It is important to remember that in the time that it will take for EV's to become common on our roads other things will also be changing. If you dig back in history, when the gasoline automobile was in the early stages, one of the common reasons given for predicting that they would never be popular was that there were no places to get more fuel for them. Where we currently live there is nowhere that we could plug in to charge an all electric vehicle, but that doesn't say that there never will be. I doubt that I'll be around to see EV's become the majority of traffic on the highways, but I'd not be surprised to see them become the most popular commuter cars. 

[Randyretired]

When charging at night I sure hope the wind is blowing.  I would hate to think we are using fossil fuel to charge all those cars.   Is that why it is so cheap.

[RV_]

On 4/30/2023 at 6:12 PM, Kirk W said:

It is important to remember that in the time that it will take for EV's to become common on our roads other things will also be changing. If you dig back in history, when the gasoline automobile was in the early stages, one of the common reasons given for predicting that they would never be popular was that there were no places to get more fuel for them. Where we currently live there is nowhere that we could plug in to charge an all electric vehicle, but that doesn't say that there never will be. I doubt that I'll be around to see EV's become the majority of traffic on the highways, but I'd not be surprised to see them become the most popular commuter cars. 

Kirk! OMG! You have no electricity where you live? 😮

With all due respect if someone can't afford a new car at today's $50k average price for any new car, EV or ICE age, then that is not the issue. Trim packages can jack the price up a lot anywhere from a few hundred to several thousand dollars.

If you do want a new EV, then you program in an upgrade to your house to include a 50 amp charging outlet. In my case $2k bought a power company upgrade from 100 Amp service to 200 Amp service, a new breaker box/50 Amp breakers, bigger ground wires, and a 50 amp outlet through the garage walls to the 50 Amp outlet across the garage from the new breaker box.

Now if you want a hydrogen car it is a bit more expensive to bring in a home fueling hydrogen electrolysis and storage system.  

If you want an ICE age vehicle they are readily available, storing gas at home underground is expensive or you have to go to a gas station subject to what, IMO, is price gouging.

I believe a solar system and Powerwall sized to run the house and charge the cars would cost about the same today as an in-ground pool and landscape in a backyard.

I also believe the cost of fossil fuels will drop like a K-Mart Thermometer in a blue norther!

So us early adopters will be making it cheaper for fossil fuel adherents to save money as the transition completes.

You may have noticed that Battery lawn equipment is also ready for prime time. The sound of gas string trimmers, mowers, edgers, hedge trimmers and snow blowers. I have no gas lawn or snow equipment at all. Just the Forester which will be replaced with an EV very soon.

Apartments, workplaces, city parking lots and most recreation areas now have or are getting chargers.

See the middle class with EVs have the money to afford entry fees for Zoos, baseball/football games, concerts, live theater, etc. so they install chargers. Our Zoo here has chargers but I cannot find them mentioned online at all. At the moment each charging network does not include the competition in their maps either.

People in cities also install chargers in their designated parking spots. 

Houses with EV charger outlets like mine also add to their value and desirability when it comes time to sell.

But for the price of a few ICE vehicle trim upgrades a charger can be installed, and sometimes free if the apartments or parking garage has enough demand because they make a profit from their chargers.

Kind of like the free installation of cable TV equipment back in their heyday, then charging monthly. Or satellite dishes. Or internet by cell services, fiber, wireless, or wired.

TANSTAAFL is a given.

 

 

Edited May 4 by RV_