Hurricane Ian destroyed power systems and ravaged homes. One southwest Florida community completely powered by solar escaped with little damage.

[RV_]

This is simply amazing! I would have thought they would have had major damage to the PV panels but they did not!

Worth a read:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hurricane-ian-florida-solar-power-babcock-ranch/

[Dutch_12078]

I recall seeing the signs for Babcock Ranch and the 100% solar feature when we were in the area a few years ago, but I didn't realize how much storm resilience was also built into the housing. In other articles, it was mentioned that even the roads and curbing are designed to carry off storm water without flooding or damage. Very impressive!

[Ray,IN]

Babcock Ranch was constructed to the latest building codes for the county. All new/re-building construction in SW Florida is required to meet or exceed the same standards.

It's a triple-whammy for local residents who are now homeless; lost everything, must rebuild with higher interest rates, plus- comply with the latest building codes.

Thanks for the link Derek.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Ray,IN

[Dutch_12078]

39 minutes ago, Ray,IN said:

Babcock Ranch was constructed to the latest building codes for the county. All new/re-building construction in SW Florida is required to meet or exceed the same standards.

It's a triple-whammy for local residents who are now homeless; lost everything, must rebuild with higher interest rates, plus- comply with the latest building codes.

Thanks for the link Derek.

Then it's clear that those standards work. Do the codes also require the flood control measures that Babcock Ranch implemented?

[sandsys]

Not cheap housing but well worth the price, I suspect.

Linda

[Lou Schneider]

So they also have sufficient battery storage to carry them through the night?  Surprise, high voltage batteries submerged in conductive salt water don't do well.  It takes several thousand gallons of water and hours to extinguish a burning Tesla.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/battling-fires-water-damaged-evs-ties-resources-hurricane-ian-recovery-florida-fire-dept-says

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Lou Schneider

[Dutch_12078]

40 minutes ago, Lou Schneider said:

So they also have sufficient battery storage to carry them through the night?  Surprise, high voltage batteries submerged in conductive salt water don't do well.  It takes several thousand gallons of water and hours to extinguish a burning Tesla.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/battling-fires-water-damaged-evs-ties-resources-hurricane-ian-recovery-florida-fire-dept-says

Yes, it would seem they have adequate battery storage. I saw mention of Tesla's Powerwall systems in one article, but I don't know if that's standard on the homes or not. The ~700,000 panel solar system covering ~900 acres is owned by FPL.

[sandsys]

5 hours ago, Lou Schneider said:

So they also have sufficient battery storage to carry them through the night?  Surprise, high voltage batteries submerged in conductive salt water don't do well. 

The town is 25 feet above sea level so they don't worry about storm surge.

Linda

[Ray,IN]

18 hours ago, Dutch_12078 said:

Then it's clear that those standards work. Do the codes also require the flood control measures that Babcock Ranch implemented?

I haven't a clue about flood control measures. Yes the current building codes do perform as passed. In the RV park where my  cousin owns a permanent older trailer, it and those like it ware flooded and trashed inside. The newer permanent trailers that were setup in accordance with current codes sustained no water damage inside, but were damaged by flying debris.

Your description sounds like the architectural engineers who performed the initial layout designed Babcock right.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Ray,IN

[Dutch_12078]

4 hours ago, Ray,IN said:

I haven't a clue about flood control measures. Yes the current building codes do perform as passed. In the RV park where my  cousin owns a permanent older trailer, it and those like it ware flooded and trashed inside. The newer permanent trailers that were setup in accordance with current codes sustained no water damage inside, but were damaged by flying debris.

Your description sounds like the architectural engineers who performed the initial layout designed Babcock right.

It sure seems like they got it right. Even the ~700,000 solar panels survived intact except for two damaged by fling debris. Although credit for that apparently goes to FPL.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Dutch_12078

[RV_]

Lou,

From below but short: "

This is where the outright lie happens. Absent a violent collision with debris that breaks the waterproof battery compartments open, an EV’s battery cells just aren’t going to be exposed to water. They’re not only water-tight but airtight. Even complete immersion or driving through deep floodwaters won’t hurt the battery pack, but other electronics that all cars have will probably malfunction (but not start a fire).

The only way flooding can destroy a battery pack is for it to remain underwater for days at a time, but few cars in the wake of Hurricane Ian would have been exposed for more than a few hours. So, the “tons” thing above starts to look misleading when you factor that in."

It worked. They had power through the whole ordeal. Now as far as that "Fire Chief" Let's look at the facts of his PR stunt. Anyone who reads the article excerpted below can see the common sense. Now without a crash, how is that saltwater getting to a Tesla battery pack? Ignoring facts doesn't change them.

Excerpt:

"Florida “State Fire Marshal” Tells Crazy Lie About EVs

When I saw this tweet, it was clearly complete bull, but the more I looked into it, the deeper the poop proved to be. Not only was a complete lie being told, but the person telling the lie is using a political technicality to pretend to be an expert in a field he has no experience in.

He’s Lying His Butt Off About EVs

Let’s look at this sentence by sentence to lay this crap to rest.

“There’s a ton of EVs disabled from Ian.”

This may be true, but not for the reasons he thinks (or wants us to think). There are few cars on the market that can survive flooding, gas, electric, or whatever else they may run on. The 12-volt electronics of a car just can’t survive being immersed in salt water. They get shorted out, and that’s that. If 7% of cars sold in Florida are EVs and a bunch of cars get damaged by flooding, then 7% of the cars destroyed in flooding will be EVs. The term “ton” is very vague, so we can’t verify the truth of this sentence.

“As these batteries corrode, fires start.”

This is where the outright lie happens. Absent a violent collision with debris that breaks the waterproof battery compartments open, an EV’s battery cells just aren’t going to be exposed to water. They’re not only water-tight but airtight. Even complete immersion or driving through deep floodwaters won’t hurt the battery pack, but other electronics that all cars have will probably malfunction (but not start a fire).

The only way flooding can destroy a battery pack is for it to remain underwater for days at a time, but few cars in the wake of Hurricane Ian would have been exposed for more than a few hours. So, the “tons” thing above starts to look misleading when you factor that in.

Even the flood cars that Rich Rebuilds has dealt with haven’t gone up in flames, though. With fresh water flooding, a pack actually survived water penetration. With salt water, there was corrosion, but no signs of shorting causing cell heating.

“That’s a new challenge that our firefighters haven’t faced before. At least on this kind of scale.”

This may have been true a decade ago, when there weren’t too many EVs on the streets, but any professional fire department is going to know what to do now. Politicians may be stuck in 1950, but firemen aren’t fools who act like they’ve got a learning disability any time change happens in the world. It’s not only their job to get it right, but their own lives on the line. They really do know what to do when the rare EV battery fire happens.

In fact, the State Fire Marshal’s office itself shared a bulletin by the National Fire Protection Association about how to handle submerged hybrid and electric vehicles. In the bulletin, it plainly says: “Submersion in water (especially salt water) can damage low and high voltage components. Although not a common occurrence, this could result in an electrical short and potential fire once the vehicle is no longer submerged.” (emphasis added)

So, not only do they know what to do, but they also know that the chance of a fire after an EV gets submerged is really low. The professionals know to just store the thing outside just in case.

How Could The State Fire Marshal Get This So Wrong After His Own Office Shared Better Information?

This is where the politically-motivated lies end and something that borders on stolen valor begins.

Yes, Jimmy Patronis is technically Florida’s state fire marshal. But, that’s a very deceptive thing to say, especially when you’re trying to act like you’re a subject matter expert. Patronis is really the state’s chief financial officer (CFO), and has the “fire marshal” title because Florida is weird and puts the state’s fire marshal office under the CFO.

Patronis himself is a restaurateur-turned-politician. He has an associate’s degree in restaurant management, and a bachelor’s degree in political science. He went on to serve in politics for years, eventually getting appointed to be the CFO for the state by longtime friend Governor Rick Scott in 2017.

I’m not going to bag on Patronis when he’s in his lane. His restaurant is still running after decades, so it must be a decent place to grab a bite. There’s nothing wrong at all with studying political science and pursuing a career in government. We need leadership in society.

But, from what I could find, Patronis didn’t ever go to a fire academy or spend 24-hour shifts in the firehouse. He didn’t compete with other firemen for a spot in a law enforcement academy to become a fire marshal. He didn’t pursue a degree in fire science, criminal justice, emergency management, or anything else relevant to being a fire marshal.

There’s nothing wrong with not doing those things, but if you haven’t done at least some of those things, you shouldn’t hold yourself out on Twitter as a “fire marshal” and then try to tell the public things about fire. If you’re going to do that, at least take a few minutes to ask the career fire guys below you about the topic to see what the general knowledge in the field is, or look at their website and read the bulletins by professionals who study this stuff for a living. Or do a simple Google search.

But, it doesn’t appear to me that his goal was to inform the public. His goal was probably to conduct a politically-motivated attack on clean technology. You don’t have to be an expert in anything to share disinformation and FUD. In fact, it’s better if you’re not an expert in the field because you’d lose a lot of credibility if you’re caught sharing blatant falsehoods about the topic.

But, when the politicking comes at the cost of a whole public safety field’s credibility, it’s an incredibly bad idea in the long run. Someone with a political science degree should know that."

Source:

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/10/07/florida-state-fire-marshal-tells-crazy-lie-about-evs/?utm_source=pocket_mylist

Edited October 10, 2022 by RV_

[RV_]

No fires mentioned in any of these, and they were submerged all the way, used as boats, ran flooded streets for hours.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Tesla+boat+mode

Nor the in this one.

See, Tesla battery packs are waterproof and airtight. Look it up. Anyone who has been in a flood knows the water recedes pretty quickly, hours not days. But furniture, fabric, appliances and sheetrock is ruined in minutes. Heck these were driving through water not soaking for an hour or ten. Don't take my word for it, take the word and videos of those who own them and went through it. They did take video.

Edited October 10, 2022 by RV_

[RV_]

19 hours ago, Lou Schneider said:

So they also have sufficient battery storage to carry them through the night?  Surprise, high voltage batteries submerged in conductive salt water don't do well.  It takes several thousand gallons of water and hours to extinguish a burning Tesla.

Surprise, Tesla and Ford high voltage batteries submerged in conductive salt water did exceptionally well because their battery packs are waterproof and airtight.  Both in driving through water deep water, and being submerged for hours.

And the Ford supplied some power for the owner and neighbors.

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by RV_

[Jinx & Wayne]

18 hours ago, sandsys said:

The town is 25 feet above sea level so they don't worry about storm surge.

And about 15 miles inland.

[RV_]

12 hours ago, Jinx & Wayne said:

And about 15 miles inland.

Wayne, Babcock Ranch took a direct hit from Ian and all around them in Charlotte County FL the power was out for days.

Some stuff from the article I linked to in the OP about Babcock the town under discussion:

"On Thursday, Gov. Ron DeSantis said that there were more than 2 million reported power outages in southwest Florida. Lee and Charlotte counties, "are basically off the grid at this point," he said that morning. But Babcock, located in Charlotte County, was the exception. 

It's 100% solar-based, with 150 megawatts of its power generated by nearby Florida Power & Light solar facilities. Having this system in place prevented the community from losing power while most of the nearby areas were without it for days. 

As people in many of the surrounding areas were forced to boil water because of rampant flooding, Babcock did not. The community has its own water and wastewater plants, with all of the water coming from wells that tap into a deep aquifer, Hall said. 

In fact, the damage was minimal. Power and the internet never even went out. 

Now, with so many in nearby communities still reeling from the hurricane, which has killed dozens, Babcock Ranch residents are working on helping those who were not as lucky. They're working on acquiring and donating mattresses and bedding, clothing and food to hurricane victims. Many. have also opened their homes for power line workers to shower and wash their clothes in between shifts. 

"It [is] a constant outpouring of support from Babcock Ranch residents who know how incredibly fortunate they are to have homes and community still intact," Hall said. 

Here's a map

Looks about the same distance inland as Ft. Myers FL. to me.

Babcock Ranch: Solar-powered "hurricane-proof" town takes direct hit from Hurricane Ian, never loses electricity

Pictures and report: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/babcock-ranch-solar-power-hurricane-ian-60-minutes-2022-10-09/

 

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by RV_

[Jinx & Wayne]

14 hours ago, RV_ said:

Wayne, Babcock Ranch took a direct hit from Ian and all around them in Charlotte County FL the power was out for days.

Derek, I agree that Babcock Ranch has a good system. They did not take a "direct hit" as compared to areas closer to the coast. The comparison of Charlotte County to Babcock is press hype.

The power generation stations for Lee and Charlotte counties are located pretty close to water and the coast. The water is needed for cooling purposes. Also, many of the power lines in Lee and Charlotte areas were above ground. So down go wires and poles. That happened where we winter in the Sebring area which only saw lesser hurricane winds. They were without power for several days.  I believe Babcock Ranch built below ground power lines. Had the solar field been located in the same area, I doubt it would have survived, never mind been down for a days or weeks.

Hurricane winds drop significantly as you move inland. At landfall the winds are the strongest. According to one report the maximum gusts at Babcock Ranch were 101 mph. The sustained winds were lower. At landfall Ian packed 150 mph winds with gusts much higher. Comparing the effects of 150 mph winds at landfall to even 100 mph sustained winds inland is deceptive. The destructive force of wind increases exponentially with velocity. 150 mph winds are 25.6 times more destructive than 100 mph winds and 256 times more destructive than basic 75 mph hurricane winds. Even if the winds at Babcock Ranch were sustained at 100 mph that is only about a 4% of the destructive power of what hit the coast.

I am not saying that Babcock Ranch had a bad system. They have a good system. I am saying that it did not suffer the same storm factors as coastal Lee and Charlotte counties. I seriously doubt that any solar power system can withstand 150 mph winds. The same system near the coast would likely be destroyed instead of down for days.

I am not knocking solar power. I am saying people consistently misunderstand the power and dynamics of hurricanes. And they are getting stronger and more frequent. If you live on the coast you are at severe risk.

Wayne

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Jinx & Wayne
Typos

[RV_]

No they did not sustain the full force of the hurricane due to siting and location, just 100-110 mph winds. Their storm drain infrastructure and waterways in their planning and wetland pre-planning proved out.

Wayne, you wrote "They did not take a "direct hit" as compared to areas closer to the coast. The comparison of Charlotte County to Babcock is press hype."

Wayne Babcock Ranch is in both Charlotte County and Lee County: "Babcock Ranch is a planned community located in southeastern Charlotte County and northeastern Lee County, Florida consisting of approximately 17,000 acres": Source Wiki here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babcock_Ranch%2C_Florida

I don't disagree. Inland gets less wind but the track went right over them according to the news reports. In the subdivision there were cinder block walls going up that were destroyed on some of the new homes there. Here is the video the day after taken by a resident: The destroyed sections start at 26:00 minutes into the video:

 

We had overhead lines in our last Louisiana neighborhood and we could lose power from thunderstorms. We have underground lines here and have had a three hour and a half hour power outage in the three years we have lived here. In the -17 degree weather of big freeze in 2021 we had no power or Internet issues thank goodness.

My amazement was the engineering that allowed the roofs and solar panels to survive and continue to work.

I built steel buildings and spec'd trusses and got them sealed by the licensed structural engineers for four years, so I agree with what you are saying. After Katrina we had new rules too in LA even up in NW LA.

The video above has the winds at the beginning and their aftermath. All around them in their county of Charlotte (And Lee) the power was out for days. 

 

[Dutch_12078]

8 hours ago, Jinx & Wayne said:

I believe Babcock Ranch built below ground power lines. Had the solar field been located in the same area, I doubt it would have survived, never mind been down for a days or weeks.

According to Google maps, Babcock Ranch and the FPL solar grid serving it are only about 5 air miles apart.

[RV_]

Yep both are on the Plat which straddles Lee and Charlotte county. Here is a good map and your 5 miles by air looks about right.

https://motivasi.my.id/

[Jinx & Wayne]

50 minutes ago, Dutch_12078 said:

According to Google maps, Babcock Ranch and the FPL solar grid serving it are only about 5 air miles apart.

Yes, and it survived and came back on line once the grid was back up. The power grid closer to the coast to which it connects fared less well.

I am not knocking Babcock. I am simply saying its solar system likely survived because it was further from the coast and much higher winds. You cannot compare it to what happened at landfall.

[Dutch_12078]

23 minutes ago, Jinx & Wayne said:

Yes, and it survived and came back on line once the grid was back up. The power grid closer to the coast to which it connects fared less well.

I am not knocking Babcock. I am simply saying its solar system likely survived because it was further from the coast and much higher winds. You cannot compare it to what happened at landfall.

The Babcock Ranch solar system never went offline. The community never lost power, water, or Internet. You're right though, they only saw winds in the 100 -110 MPH range and lost just 2 panels out of about 700,000 to flying debris.

[Ray,IN]

Babcock Ranch in the news: https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/americas-first-solar-powered-town-passes-hurricane-ian-test/ar-AA131YjX

 

Babcock Ranch is not 100% solar-powered, at night electricity is supplied by a natural gas generating plant.

[Dutch_12078]

8 hours ago, Ray,IN said:

Babcock Ranch in the news: https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/americas-first-solar-powered-town-passes-hurricane-ian-test/ar-AA131YjX

 

Babcock Ranch is not 100% solar-powered, at night electricity is supplied by a natural gas generating plant.

Thanks, Ray, that does answer some questions about the overall power supply. I did read that at least some Babcock homes have Tesla Powerwall battery backup installations as well.