AI Cars Hi-jacked from Fuel prices

[ms60ocb]

Under the Topic of Fuel Prices Dutch_12078 made a good comment and I have questions.

His statement was: Probably the biggest safety advantages full level 5 self-driving vehicles would have is that the specialized AI's don't get distracted and can make decisions many times faster than humans. Ideally, in a fully self-driving world, the AI's will be able to communicate their intentions to each other. At least when not distracted by planning to take over the world.

My questions surrounds the safety advantage during inclement weather. All the camera's would need a clear view. I can see multi camera's backing up primary cameras thus bugs and bird dropping should not affect the operation. How would heavy rain or snow affect the operation. Others such Dust, Smoke, Heavy dew and fog. I do believe the AI would handle Hydro-planeing, if the  cameras can see, better than many drivers. The condition of the cameras being of most importance, could demand that all cameras be cleaned before moving? Can the vehicle dodge pot holes and trash on the road? How does the vehicle handle passing on a 2-lane road. I understand a plane's auto-pilot system somewhat but Air-traffic Controllers aid in the planes safety.

I do bet the AI would help find a recharge or fuel. Any Discussion.

Clay

[sandsys]

Dave says self driving vehicles also use lidar--low intensity radar--not just cameras. That makes me feel a bit better about them. A bit.

Linda

[Dutch_12078]

5 hours ago, ms60ocb said:

Under the Topic of Fuel Prices Dutch_12078 made a good comment and I have questions.

His statement was: Probably the biggest safety advantages full level 5 self-driving vehicles would have is that the specialized AI's don't get distracted and can make decisions many times faster than humans. Ideally, in a fully self-driving world, the AI's will be able to communicate their intentions to each other. At least when not distracted by planning to take over the world.

My questions surrounds the safety advantage during inclement weather. All the camera's would need a clear view. I can see multi camera's backing up primary cameras thus bugs and bird dropping should not affect the operation. How would heavy rain or snow affect the operation. Others such Dust, Smoke, Heavy dew and fog. I do believe the AI would handle Hydro-planeing, if the  cameras can see, better than many drivers. The condition of the cameras being of most importance, could demand that all cameras be cleaned before moving? Can the vehicle dodge pot holes and trash on the road? How does the vehicle handle passing on a 2-lane road. I understand a plane's auto-pilot system somewhat but Air-traffic Controllers aid in the planes safety.

I do bet the AI would help find a recharge or fuel. Any Discussion.

Clay

As Linda said, Lidar is used to augment the cameras. As to airplanes, be aware that not all airports have air traffic controllers, some just part time, and some not at all. I've been on planes that had to use a certain microphone click sequence on a specific frequency to turn on the runway lights for night landings. Landing that is after buzzing the runway to make sure no critters were wandering around on it.

[Kirk W]

2 hours ago, sandsys said:

Dave says self driving vehicles also use lidar--low intensity radar--not just cameras.

Automobiles have been using radar technology for several years now, starting in most cases with the backup alarms that warn you of getting close to things and spreading to a bunch of different areas. LiDar stands for Light Detection and Ranging, and is a newer technology that is mostly used for autonomous driving vehicles so far.

Automotive radar and LiDAR sensors: one masterpiece and another in the making?

[VC 23RSS]

I see Tesla working to coordinate charging at their charging stations in the near future where reservations will all be automatic.  Question remains if like many theme parks, paying extra will get you a cut in line.

After the stories of long lines to get charged the day after Thanksgiving and the bad press, my guess is Tesla is working to smooth this kink out.

[ms60ocb]

THANKS, Lots of good info.

Clay

[RV_]

Clay this just added and more recent data points along with personal experience owning and driving a Tesla model from new in June 2020,  two years now. Elon said that he is against merging Lidar and Camera info because when they disagree which should the computer follow to merge the response? Also it is proven that Lidar can damage camera lenses and possibly our eyes, as well Lidar does poorly in rain as the light refraction from water degrades Lidar accuracy. So I am into EVs and new tech and developments. Both as a buyer and an investor.

Right now no vehicle is equipped solely with Lidar but Tesla and one or two others are successfully using cameras only, and I can personally attest that in daily driving in town and on the highways it works great for me.

So until one company declares they have a ready for prime time Full Self Driving system perfected which Tesla nor any other have produced yet, testing on the Tesla Beta and others will continue. I am not an EV engineer so I can honestly say we just have to wait and see and it will not be another five years, more like any time now.

From Inside EVs 2021:

Excerpt:

"The host of E For Electric, Alex Guberman, does point out that one of Elon's other companies, Space-X developed its own LiDAR system in-house, and Elon actually spearheaded the project. So obviously Musk knows a great deal about LiDAR and how it can be useful in the right circumstances.

Evidently, docking a spacecraft is one of the right applications for LiDAR, but Musk believes it is overkill, and too expensive for terrestrial transportation.  

Most would agree that Tesla currently has the most advanced self-driving technology available in cars today. Its limited-release Full Self Driving (FSD) package is capable of performing tasks that no other system - that is currently in the hands of non-employee consumers, can. 

From Benzinga 2022. Sorry guys but like computers, 2 years old tech info is ancient.

Excerpt:

"What Happened: Musk returned to lidar bashing yet again last week. The Tesla CEO said lidar is a "seductive local maximum."

He clarified that his space exploration company SpaceX designed it and used it to dock with the International Space Station. Musk's comments came in reply to a tweet by Whole Mars Catalog, a pro-Tesla EV news channel.

Offering explanation as to why lidar won't work for EVs, Musk said the road system was designed to work with biological neural nets and our eyes. A general solution to self-driving necessarily will require "silicon neural nets & cameras," he added.

He termed it as "real-world AI."

Gary Black, managing partner of Future Fund, pointed out in reply that no competitors use lidar alone — it's used in addition to cameras and neural nets, he said.

A YouTuber who goes by the twitter handle @CarAutonomy said a day will come when Musk will "backtrack" on this.

The Lidar Vs Camera Debate: Lidar has polarized the EV industry, with those arguing for lidar plus camera systems suggesting it is the best option for level four and level five autonomy, which allows vehicles to operate in self-driving mode without much human interaction.

Those defending the technology argue that it can map surroundings and also measure object velocity, while also offering long and wide visual ranges. It is seen as more suitable to companies building mobility services using fully self-driving vehicles.

On the other hand, Tesla uses camera vision and neural net processing, collectively called Tesla Vision, to deliver the company's Autopilot and full-self driving as well as some active safety features.

All Model 3 and Model Y vehicles delivered in North America were transitioned to Tesla Vision in May 2021. The company recent announced that as of mid-February, all Model S and Model X vehicles built for the North American market will also use Tesla Vision.

At last check, Tesla shares were rallying 6.69% to $864.03. 

Related Link: EV Week In Review: Tesla Bets Big On China, Lucid Hit With Recall Woes, Li Auto Surprises With Quarterly Profit, Ford Puts to Rest Spin-off Talks And More

 

https://www.benzinga.com/news/22/02/25882960/lidar-vs-cameras-in-evs-teslas-musk-and-his-followers-weigh-in

 

 

Lidar May Be Harmful To People & Cameras

2021

Excerpt:

"Jim Park at Truckinginfo.com wrote an interesting story questioning the safety of lidar systems. Some types of lidar could potentially cause damage to human eyes, while other types could be hurting cameras that other autonomous depend on for safe operation (not to mention cameras used by traffic equipment, cell phones, and professional photography).

Lidar uses light (from lasers) to get a picture of its surroundings the same way that radar uses radio waves. By sweeping around with a laser that fires weak pulses of light and then seeing what reflections come back, an autonomous vehicle can “see” other vehicles, buildings, pedestrians, and other things that it must be aware of on the road. Tesla doesn’t use lidar for autopilot or the in-development Full Self Driving option, instead depending on cameras alone for computer vision. Most other organizations use lidar, and often have unsightly spinning “salad shooter” type things on the vehicle’s roof and sides.

The possible safety problem comes from the ability of a laser to damage eyes and cameras. A common lidar frequency is 905 nanometers. At that frequency, too much power can temporarily or even permanently blind a human eye. For that reason, governments have set power limits to keep them below what theoretically can harm us.

At 1550 nanometers, it’s much more difficult for lidar to penetrate the human eye. The liquid inside our eyes is mostly opaque to those frequencies, and while a very powerful laser could hurt the surface of your eye, it probably can’t permanently blind you by burning your retina. “The ocular fluid is largely clear at visible wavelengths and out to about 1,300 or 1,400 nm but becomes nearly opaque (think welder’s glass) at 1,550 nm,” said Jeff Hecht, a laser expert, to Truckinginfo.com.

“On the other hand, 905-nm light does reach the retina and could cause eye damage. I wouldn’t want one of those in my car or truck.” he said.

Autonomous vehicle companies are starting to use the 1550 nanometer frequency because government power limits are 1000 times higher. This allows for lidar that gets much better range and allows AVs to “see” well with the vehicle traveling at highway speeds. It’s akin to not outdriving your headlights at night. To go faster, AVs using lidar need brighter lidar.

Even if lidar doesn’t hurt human eyes, it can cause problems for cameras. In one 2019 incident, a journalist took a photo of a vehicle equipped with lidar units. In every subsequent photo, his camera’s sensor showed signs of damage in exactly the same spot. “I noticed that all my pictures were having that spot,” The man told Ars Technica. “I covered up the camera with the lens cap and the spots are there—it’s burned into the sensor.

Before I explore why this could be such a big problem, keep in mind what limited data I’ve presented here.

All I’ve found so far about these dangers was the ideas of one expert in the field. Needless to say, that’s not enough to make for conclusive proof that lidar units are dangerous. Unfortunately, the technology hasn’t been widely deployed in the real world and not many studies have been done to determine all of the potential risks.

That having been said, if there are real risks to lidar systems, this could cause a lot of problems.

Obviously damage to even a few people’s eyes is a big problem. I get that autonomous vehicles could save a lot of lives by removing the dumbest drivers from the road, but even if there’s a net benefit, the people losing sight occasionally to lidar (when widely deployed) will definitely be on TV telling their terrifying story. This would be bad for every company using lidar for autonomous vehicles, and possibly for AV companies that don’t.

Damage to cameras would be more tolerable for society in many ways because it doesn’t terrify people the way a small chance of losing sight does. That doesn’t mean that damage to cameras, even occasionally, would be a good thing. If there are a lot of vehicles on the road relying on cameras, lidar, or both, blinding a few cameras here and there would be a problem. At worst, a blinded autonomous vehicle could kill people. At best, it would be a nuisance to have to replace expensive cameras from time to time.

Nobody would shed a tear for burnt up traffic enforcement cameras, but other cameras that regulate traffic light timing, monitor roads for conditions, and help with security would definitely all be missed if they went out of order.

This is definitely an issue that needs further scrutiny.”

More in the source:

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/03/12/lidar-may-be-harmful-to-people-cameras/

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dutch_12078]

10 hours ago, RV_ said:

Clay this just added and more recent data points along with personal experience owning and driving a Tesla model from new in June 2020,  two years now. Elon said that he is against merging Lidar and Camera info because when they disagree which should the computer follow to merge the response? Also it is proven that Lidar can damage camera lenses and possibly our eyes, as well Lidar does poorly in rain as the light refraction from water degrades Lidar accuracy. So I am into EVs and new tech and developments. Both as a buyer and an investor.

Right now no vehicle is equipped solely with Lidar but Tesla and one or two others are successfully using cameras only, and I can personally attest that in daily driving in town and on the highways it works great for me.

So until one company declares they have a ready for prime time Full Self Driving system perfected which Tesla nor any other have produced yet, testing on the Tesla Beta and others will continue. I am not an EV engineer so I can honestly say we just have to wait and see and it will not be another five years, more like any time now.

From Inside EVs 2021:

Excerpt:

"The host of E For Electric, Alex Guberman, does point out that one of Elon's other companies, Space-X developed its own LiDAR system in-house, and Elon actually spearheaded the project. So obviously Musk knows a great deal about LiDAR and how it can be useful in the right circumstances.

Evidently, docking a spacecraft is one of the right applications for LiDAR, but Musk believes it is overkill, and too expensive for terrestrial transportation.  

Most would agree that Tesla currently has the most advanced self-driving technology available in cars today. Its limited-release Full Self Driving (FSD) package is capable of performing tasks that no other system - that is currently in the hands of non-employee consumers, can. 

From Benzinga 2022. Sorry guys but like computers, 2 years old tech info is ancient.

Excerpt:

"What Happened: Musk returned to lidar bashing yet again last week. The Tesla CEO said lidar is a "seductive local maximum."

He clarified that his space exploration company SpaceX designed it and used it to dock with the International Space Station. Musk's comments came in reply to a tweet by Whole Mars Catalog, a pro-Tesla EV news channel.

Offering explanation as to why lidar won't work for EVs, Musk said the road system was designed to work with biological neural nets and our eyes. A general solution to self-driving necessarily will require "silicon neural nets & cameras," he added.

He termed it as "real-world AI."

Gary Black, managing partner of Future Fund, pointed out in reply that no competitors use lidar alone — it's used in addition to cameras and neural nets, he said.

A YouTuber who goes by the twitter handle @CarAutonomy said a day will come when Musk will "backtrack" on this.

The Lidar Vs Camera Debate: Lidar has polarized the EV industry, with those arguing for lidar plus camera systems suggesting it is the best option for level four and level five autonomy, which allows vehicles to operate in self-driving mode without much human interaction.

Those defending the technology argue that it can map surroundings and also measure object velocity, while also offering long and wide visual ranges. It is seen as more suitable to companies building mobility services using fully self-driving vehicles.

On the other hand, Tesla uses camera vision and neural net processing, collectively called Tesla Vision, to deliver the company's Autopilot and full-self driving as well as some active safety features.

All Model 3 and Model Y vehicles delivered in North America were transitioned to Tesla Vision in May 2021. The company recent announced that as of mid-February, all Model S and Model X vehicles built for the North American market will also use Tesla Vision.

At last check, Tesla shares were rallying 6.69% to $864.03. 

Related Link: EV Week In Review: Tesla Bets Big On China, Lucid Hit With Recall Woes, Li Auto Surprises With Quarterly Profit, Ford Puts to Rest Spin-off Talks And More

 

https://www.benzinga.com/news/22/02/25882960/lidar-vs-cameras-in-evs-teslas-musk-and-his-followers-weigh-in

 

 

Lidar May Be Harmful To People & Cameras

2021

Excerpt:

"Jim Park at Truckinginfo.com wrote an interesting story questioning the safety of lidar systems. Some types of lidar could potentially cause damage to human eyes, while other types could be hurting cameras that other autonomous depend on for safe operation (not to mention cameras used by traffic equipment, cell phones, and professional photography).

Lidar uses light (from lasers) to get a picture of its surroundings the same way that radar uses radio waves. By sweeping around with a laser that fires weak pulses of light and then seeing what reflections come back, an autonomous vehicle can “see” other vehicles, buildings, pedestrians, and other things that it must be aware of on the road. Tesla doesn’t use lidar for autopilot or the in-development Full Self Driving option, instead depending on cameras alone for computer vision. Most other organizations use lidar, and often have unsightly spinning “salad shooter” type things on the vehicle’s roof and sides.

The possible safety problem comes from the ability of a laser to damage eyes and cameras. A common lidar frequency is 905 nanometers. At that frequency, too much power can temporarily or even permanently blind a human eye. For that reason, governments have set power limits to keep them below what theoretically can harm us.

At 1550 nanometers, it’s much more difficult for lidar to penetrate the human eye. The liquid inside our eyes is mostly opaque to those frequencies, and while a very powerful laser could hurt the surface of your eye, it probably can’t permanently blind you by burning your retina. “The ocular fluid is largely clear at visible wavelengths and out to about 1,300 or 1,400 nm but becomes nearly opaque (think welder’s glass) at 1,550 nm,” said Jeff Hecht, a laser expert, to Truckinginfo.com.

“On the other hand, 905-nm light does reach the retina and could cause eye damage. I wouldn’t want one of those in my car or truck.” he said.

Autonomous vehicle companies are starting to use the 1550 nanometer frequency because government power limits are 1000 times higher. This allows for lidar that gets much better range and allows AVs to “see” well with the vehicle traveling at highway speeds. It’s akin to not outdriving your headlights at night. To go faster, AVs using lidar need brighter lidar.

Even if lidar doesn’t hurt human eyes, it can cause problems for cameras. In one 2019 incident, a journalist took a photo of a vehicle equipped with lidar units. In every subsequent photo, his camera’s sensor showed signs of damage in exactly the same spot. “I noticed that all my pictures were having that spot,” The man told Ars Technica. “I covered up the camera with the lens cap and the spots are there—it’s burned into the sensor.

Before I explore why this could be such a big problem, keep in mind what limited data I’ve presented here.

All I’ve found so far about these dangers was the ideas of one expert in the field. Needless to say, that’s not enough to make for conclusive proof that lidar units are dangerous. Unfortunately, the technology hasn’t been widely deployed in the real world and not many studies have been done to determine all of the potential risks.

That having been said, if there are real risks to lidar systems, this could cause a lot of problems.

Obviously damage to even a few people’s eyes is a big problem. I get that autonomous vehicles could save a lot of lives by removing the dumbest drivers from the road, but even if there’s a net benefit, the people losing sight occasionally to lidar (when widely deployed) will definitely be on TV telling their terrifying story. This would be bad for every company using lidar for autonomous vehicles, and possibly for AV companies that don’t.

Damage to cameras would be more tolerable for society in many ways because it doesn’t terrify people the way a small chance of losing sight does. That doesn’t mean that damage to cameras, even occasionally, would be a good thing. If there are a lot of vehicles on the road relying on cameras, lidar, or both, blinding a few cameras here and there would be a problem. At worst, a blinded autonomous vehicle could kill people. At best, it would be a nuisance to have to replace expensive cameras from time to time.

Nobody would shed a tear for burnt up traffic enforcement cameras, but other cameras that regulate traffic light timing, monitor roads for conditions, and help with security would definitely all be missed if they went out of order.

This is definitely an issue that needs further scrutiny.”

More in the source:

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/03/12/lidar-may-be-harmful-to-people-cameras/

 

Apparently Jim Park hasn't heard about laser filters for cameras and other applications. They're even available on eBay for a few dollars... 

[Twotoes]

As an alternative I guess you would be able to turn off the AI while driving in inclement weather.

[Dutch_12078]

7 hours ago, Twotoes said:

As an alternative I guess you would be able to turn off the AI while driving in inclement weather.

When the car makers reach full Level 5 capabilities, the manual driver controls will be removed and there will be no geo-fencing limiting where the vehicles can go. Waymo is currently operating a Level 4 self-driving taxi service in Arizona, where they've been testing autonomous cars without a safety driver in the seat for more than a year and over 10 million miles.

[bruce t]

When I was a kid way back in the 1950-60's we read all about cars that would follow the line in the road. The images showed families playing cards while ignoring the road. Here we are almost 70 years later and still waiting. Still no where near that prediction. Still no hover cars. Still no helicopter parking spaces at Wal-Mart. EVs still only count for a very very small percentage of the market despite years of predictions. 

AI cars? They will never be more clever than humans simply because they rely on humans to make them. And we know humans aren't perfect and humans will never foresee every possible scenario to program into the AI car. 

It's ok to dream. It's great to encourage innovation and development. But we all need to keep it all in perspective. Since the ICE replaced the horse there has only been an evolution of vehicles. Not a revolution. My prediction is that we will all be worm food before those 1950's dreams become a reality. If ever.

 

 

[Dutch_12078]

29 minutes ago, bruce t said:

 AI cars? They will never be more clever than humans simply because they rely on humans to make them. And we know humans aren't perfect and humans will never foresee every possible scenario to program into the AI car. 

 

With AI controlled cars humans won't need to foresee every possible scenario because they learn from new experiences. And not just their own, but from other AI's experiences as well. Limited Level 5, or if you prefer Level 4+, AI controlled cars are already in large scale testing and use with no safety drivers on board.

[bruce t]

Learning for "new experience" may be to late! 

 

[Dutch_12078]

18 hours ago, bruce t said:

Learning for "new experience" may be to late! 

 

Yes it might, just as it is for humans at times. But each time one AI passes along a new situation and solution to other AI's, unlike humans, the whole system gets better.

[RV_]

Whenever many companies are spending a lot of money in R&D like Tesla and Space X have been doing, breakthroughs happen faster. I remember in 2000 not streaming and not much broadband, dial-up Internet was king. In 2007 the first smartphones came out. Soon after the tablets came out and in Jan 2013 I bought the first Surface RT tablet and quickly sold it when I realized it could not run full Windows programs, just some limited apps and a preloaded desktop and could not do email; except online. I sat it out and then bought bought the HP x2 hybrid full windows 8/8.1/10tablet and detachable keyboard then the Lenovo and the ultimate Dell 11.5" Windows tablet that had USB3.1 and a full HD touchscreen. Then the Surface Pro 3 in 2014 followed by the Pro 4 and now the Pro 7 and 7+ and two Go 2 m3 LTE, all with keyboard covers.

Starlink took less than a couple of years from when I first heard about it to full out launching and I can get it now. They just got approved for in motion too last week.

The US has been slower than the rest of the world to buy EVs and I have no idea about Oz.

Excerpt:

"Taking a look at the geographic breakdown of the vehicles underscores how just a few regions are driving most of the adoption. China accounts for 46% of the total sales to date, followed by Europe at 34%. North America is a distant third at 15%, but fresh policy support should get that EV market moving this year and next. All the remaining countries combined account for just 5% of the global EV fleet."

Excellent source article from April 8, 2022 :

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-08/plug-in-ev-fleet-will-soon-hit-a-20-million-milestone

Edited July 5, 2022 by RV_