Elementary questions about RV buying

[Corrie473]

Hi guys,

Trying to do this from my phone so I hope it works I am extremely technologically challenged...

OK so that's what a wet bath is! Thank you for the pictures. I could not figure out what NON wet bath would be... I kept thinking as long as you have a water source in the RV it is going to be wet! Now I get it: with a wet bath, everything else in the bathroom gets wet too. That's something I think you'd have to get used to because at least initially it seems a little off putting to be that close to toilet while you're showering. I guess it keeps the toilet clean? On the plus side, sitting down on the toilet while bathing a toddler is convenient. 

My truck is a GMC Sierra SL, full size (not an S10 though for all I know there are S10s with this engine) but about as pared down of full size truck as you will find. I took a picture of the sticker inside the door and have been trying to attach it but am having difficulty... it says GVWR 6100/2767.

We are going to a local dealership today because something popped up (no pun intended) on their website, an A-Liner for 8.5K. I think that will be too bare bones (I don't think it has any bathroom) but I thought it was a good excuse to get my butt in the showroom door. I appreciate all of the assurances that it's okay to go just to look... this is a relatively small area geographically (pop 30,000) and I feel like they are not used to that as they would be in a larger city... though that could be in my head. Yes some people really do just like to educate you, I felt like I should be ready to write a check for 50K or I'm wasting their time, probably a little ridiculous on my part. I don't think I realized quite how much the layouts can differ or how much it'll impact the enjoyment level.

I'm glad to hear an inspector will come to the seller's location... my friend in New Mexico had told me just take pictures and email them to him, he will advise me, I did not think that was going to work, don't even trust myself to know what to take pictures of...

I continue to be amazed at how many helpful suggestions you guys have and how much time you're willing to invest in helping a stranger make a decision. When I posted originally I expected 1 or 2 replies(!)

More soon,

Corrie

[2gypsies]

I'm impressed you can type your long reply on the phone!! 😀

Definitely take a look at dealers.  They are used to people 'just looking'.   Everyone does it.  Another good place to look is at a RV show but with the country as it it, I doubt there will be one anywhere soon.

Keep in mind that with a wet bath be prepared to always take your shower at the same time as your daughter because you will both get wet.  To me, if you can avoid getting a wet bath it will be so much nicer for you.  Look for a small RV with a tub/shower.... much more convenient and your daughter can have some tub time playing with the rubber duckie!  

[durangodon]

32 minutes ago, 2gypsies said:

I'm impressed you can type your long reply on the phone!! 

 

Speech to text.  Who types on a phone?

[sandsys]

7 hours ago, Kirk W said:

Truck scales like those at truck stops, give weight of each axle and total.

And they are open to the public. You drive onto the scale making sure each axle is on a different plate. You push the buzzer to call into the office; you might have to stand in your open door to reach the buzzer. They will ask for your ID number. Tell them "private". They will print a weight document. You move off the scale, park your vehicle, then go into the office to pay and pick up your weight document. It's not nearly as complicated as that sounds.

Linda

[2gypsies]

1 hour ago, durangodon said:

Speech to text.  Who types on a phone?

I do.

[Kirk W]

GVWR is gross vehicle weight rating and that is the maximum amount of weight that should ever be carried by your truck. The 6100 is pounds and the second figure is kilograms. 

GAWR is gross axle weight rating and that is the maximum weight that should ever be on the front and rear axles. These are also the reason that truck scales weigh the axles separately as all vehicle have such ratings and commercial trucks also deal with weight limits set by law and enforced on them. I have never heard of any RV being stopped and weighed on the highways and we are not required (or welcome) to pass through the truck scales on the highways. There are two more weights that you need to take a look at and they are GCWR (gross combined weight rating) and the maximum towing weight. Those should be in the owner's manual for the truck. 

[Corrie473]

18 hours ago, Kirk W said:

GVWR is gross vehicle weight rating and that is the maximum amount of weight that should ever be carried by your truck. The 6100 is pounds and the second figure is kilograms. 

GAWR is gross axle weight rating and that is the maximum weight that should ever be on the front and rear axles. These are also the reason that truck scales weigh the axles separately as all vehicle have such ratings and commercial trucks also deal with weight limits set by law and enforced on them. I have never heard of any RV being stopped and weighed on the highways and we are not required (or welcome) to pass through the truck scales on the highways. There are two more weights that you need to take a look at and they are GCWR (gross combined weight rating) and the maximum towing weight. Those should be in the owner's manual for the truck. 

So I assume the 6100 lbs includes the weight of the truck itself? I know an object can't exert a force on itself and that weight is a force so if the rating refers to the max force that should be exerted on the truck, that would be the stuff in the truck and whatever the truck is towing, so that would mean I add up everything I'm putting in the truck and the trailer plus the weight of the trailer and that must be less than 6100. Or is weight interpreted more like mass, and we have to consider the mass of the truck? 

For example let's say that in the trailer I have 1000 lbs of stuff, the trailer itself weighs 4000,  I have 200 lbs worth of stuff under the camper shell, and my truck weighs 1500. Am I over (1000+4000+200+1500=6700>6100) or safe (1000+4000+200=5200<6100)? (I know I still need to consider how it is distributed over the axles but just to get the idea of how to interpret GVWR.)

Thanks again!

I had my owner's manual for a long time but it's gone now so I guess I will have to find one online...

[mptjelgin]

The GVWR is the total amount of weight that can be on the axles of the truck.  So it includes the weight of the truck, passengers, fuel, things in the cab and bed, and the weight of the trailer hitch pressing down on the truck.  But it does not include the full weight of the trailer. That is considered in a different number, which is the gross combined weight rating, the GCWR. 

To take your example a little further, you need to know the weight of the truck (which is way more than 1500 pounds. Add to that 200 pounds of stuff under the camper shell, the weight of the shell itself, the weight of passengers and (for estimate purposes) about 15% of the trailer weight as a hitch weight. That is the number you need to compare to the 6100 pounds. 

Note that a properly set up Weight Distributing Hitch can have a big impact on how much of the weight is transferred onto the back of the truck, and how that weight is distributed between the front and rear axles. The only way to really be sure about this is to run the entire setup over a set of scales. But a good starting point would be to get an accurate weight on your truck, with you and your carry along "stuff" on board. That is needed no matter what. 

[Corrie473]

Hi all 

Just wanted to update about my visits to 2 local dealerships. The first one I went to was the one with the A-LIner for 8.5 K. It was sort of what I expected: very small reception area, a 'can I help you' immediately, shepherded out to see the A-Liner which was parked in the back. It was VERY small, I think the smallest of all the A-Liner models. The salesman said 'it's not the type of thing we usually take in'. He also had another travel trailer they had just taken in that was still being cleaned. It had ample space but I just didn't like the layout, the bunk beds seemed really claustraphobic, and I couldn't imagine us in it. The salesman said 'that's all I got that your truck could tow for under 10K.' I said what if I upped the budget to 15K his response was 'yeah that would open up some options, here's my card, go on the website, call me if you see something you like' - seemed eager to get rid of me.

So we went over to a second dealership. They didn't have anything (the only thing below 20K that they had they said was too heavy for my truck to tow) but they apparently leave all their units unlocked during business hours and let people walk through them. So we were able to walk through some T@B travel trailers, a 'Camp Rover', a Forest River can't remember the model, and some brands I haven't heard of. There was also another A-Liner, a larger one with a 'cassette toilet' which sounds like a chemical toilet to me and a pretty generous space and I liked the layout but no shower. The salesman said it will be a waiting game when it comes to finding something the truck can tow that's in my price range.

Anyway it was an interesting experience, feel like I learned a lot... this is more like renting an apartment than buying a vehicle. Somehow I thought that if the specs were right (price, weight, etc) it would be 'the right' TT for me. Now I realize it's a lot more subjective... it has to 'feel right' when you walk in.

I sort of set a goal of being ready to go in 2 months, figured that will give the Coronavirus stuff time to die down and more states to reopen, also I have a personal commitment in June in the state where I'm living though it could be weaseled out of I'd rather not, so I figured we would not depart until after that... so I guess I have time to wait for the right trailer to cross my path...

Thanks again to everyone for their encouragement

[Corrie473]

4 minutes ago, mptjelgin said:

The GVWR is the total amount of weight that can be on the axles of the truck.  So it includes the weight of the truck, passengers, fuel, things in the cab and bed, and the weight of the trailer hitch pressing down on the truck.  But it does not include the full weight of the trailer. That is considered in a different number, which is the gross combined weight rating, the GCWR. 

Oh... okay! Yes and I forgot to include the passengers (150 lbs) and the camper shell itself (no idea but didn't seem to change the way the truck handled so I was guessing relatively negligible) and yes I can believe 1500 is not very realistic, I just threw it out.

But... if GVWR is the total weight that can be on the axles, then why is the sum of the GAWR front and GAWR rear not equal to the GVWR? I guess now that I think about it they don't have to be... there can be a limit on each individual axle and a different limit for the total and all three have to be respected. Ok that makes sense. Thank you!

[Corrie473]

20 hours ago, sandsys said:

And they are open to the public. You drive onto the scale making sure each axle is on a different plate. You push the buzzer to call into the office; you might have to stand in your open door to reach the buzzer. They will ask for your ID number. Tell them "private". They will print a weight document. You move off the scale, park your vehicle, then go into the office to pay and pick up your weight document. It's not nearly as complicated as that sounds.

Linda

Okay I always assumed that was 'truckers only' and that a private vehicle went there. Now that I think about it I was visualizing the ones on the highway, where the trucks are instructed to stop. As someone else pointed out, general public is not welcome there. Yes a truck stop will work.

[Corrie473]

21 hours ago, 2gypsies said:

Keep in mind that with a wet bath be prepared to always take your shower at the same time as your daughter because you will both get wet.  To me, if you can avoid getting a wet bath it will be so much nicer for you.  Look for a small RV with a tub/shower.... much more convenient and your daughter can have some tub time playing with the rubber duckie!  

Yeah I don't want to sound squeamish but the wet baths I saw kind of gave me the willies. She is used now used to a bath, though on our trip we only took showers, so I guessed she would get used to that again, but I didn't really like the look of the wet baths. I would gladly trade a kitchen for a tub/shower because I don't cook very much (that doesn't mean I don't try to eat healthy, don't worry I'm not feeding my daughter a steady diet of cheerios or canned pasta... but I would have no complaints about just continuing to use my single burner campstove)... but I don't think that's an option.

[sandsys]

29 minutes ago, Corrie473 said:

I would have no complaints about just continuing to use my single burner campstove)... but I don't think that's an option.

You can continue to use your camp stove if you cook outside. I also see them being used by van dwellers who open the back or side door and use them there with lots of ventilation. As an alternative, if you have plenty of power, I liked using an induction burner that I only took out of storage on the rare occasion I wanted to cook something in a pot. I couldn't live without a microwave now. But I still sometimes miss our little backpacking stove.

Linda

[2gypsies]

I'm impressed in the two dealers telling you about your truck's towing capacity and steering you away from a heavier trailer.  Quite often dealers will say "Oh, you can pull it with that truck" just to try and make a sale.

I really don't recommend you using your camp stove inside an RV even with ventilation.  They should be used outside.

[TXiceman]

Very sound advice is to educate yourself on the towing nomenclature and tow ratings.  99% of the truck and RV dealers sales people know nothing about towing.  Their idea of towing is heading to the lake with the bass boat loaded with a cooler full of beer.

There is lots of truth in the old adage....you can tell when a salesman is not telling the truth......His lips are moving.  His job is to sell, not educate you.

Do not listen to the folks telling  you that I pull my 44 ft toyhauler with my F250 just fine.  All you need is to add air bags....ha ha ha.

 

[Corrie473]

True they seemed realistic about what the truck could tow. They did both mention a pop-up to which I said I just don't think so... how much climate control can you really have in a pop up? The sales guy at the first dealership said, "well it's a lot better than a tent"... uh, yeah, but that's not saying much. Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't see a pop-up being suitable for full timing?

 

And as far as the kitchen/ stove, what I was thinking was that in general it seems if you want a full bath instead of a wet bath you have to upgrade to a more "luxurious" unit in all aspects. I didn't see any units that had a sparse/ rudimentary kitchen and a full bath, while I saw several that had a pretty nice kitchen and a rudimentary bathroom. For someone like me that's unfortunate because if in order to get a full bath I have to take a nice kitchen as part of the package its really a waste, I will not use it! It's just adding to the footprint and the weight.

Edited May 3, 2020 by Corrie473

[TXiceman]

Corrie, you have to come to the realization of just what your truck can tow may not give you the size trailer you want and have to either down size or up size the truck.  I would not want to try full timing in a $10000 trailer and smaller tow vehicle.  However, we have found people full timing in a class B and also an A-frame trailer.  

Have yo looked for a used Avion from the 1980's?  These are affordable, but will require some TLC to get then up to travel and full time.  We sold our restored 1989 35' Avion 7 years ago fro $16500.  Last time we saw it, 2 years ago, they had paid the same for it and it was not nearly as good of shape as when we sold it.

Good luck,

Ken

[Kirk W]

7 hours ago, Corrie473 said:

But... if GVWR is the total weight that can be on the axles, then why is the sum of the GAWR front and GAWR rear not equal to the GVWR?

Remember that all of these weights that we are speaking of are designed limits and they do not have to add up to equal GVWR. To put it another way, the GVWR is the amount that you would see on a scale when your truck is sitting on it but does not include the weight on the axle of the trailer. It does include the weight that is added to the truck by the downward pressure of the trailer that is attached to it, or what the RV will list as the hitch weight. When you weigh the truck to see what it will weigh, it must include you and everything that will be in it when you go somewhere. Just as when you weigh yourself you weigh least when nude, more when dressed, even more when you fill your pockets and more yet if you have on a full backpack. The weight that you will carry on a hike includes all of those things, not what you weigh nude. 

The axles are designed to carry more than half of the weight allowed because it would be very unusual for the load to be evenly distributed. The rear axle of a truck will always have a higher limit than the front because the truck bed is designed to carry extra weight. The same axles may be used in more than one model of truck and so they often have design limits that exceed those of the total truck. The GVWR is based not only on the axles, but also the brakes, suspension, engine, transmission, and a several other factors that do not impact axle ratings. You can safely put 3686# on the rear axle of you truck, so long as the total weight of the loaded truck with everyone in it and a full tank of fuel does not exceed 6100#, meaning no more than 2400# on the front axle.

When you look at the weight of trailer that you can safely tow, that figure is not on the label that you posted but should be in your owner's manual. Your truck has a maxim tow rating weight and also a gross combined weight rating, GCWR. To know what you can safely tow with your truck you need to load it as you will when you travel with it and then get it weighed. Whatever that weight is, you then subtract that from the truck's GCWR to learn the most your trailer should weigh. All RVs have a GVWR weight somewhere on them and that is what you then compare to the ratings of the truck. The label that you posted a picture of only addresses what your truck can weigh and has no indication of what you can safely tow. 

Keep in mind also that we are speaking of the designed maximum limits, not of the ideal weights for constant use. Experienced truck owners will tell you that for good handling and comfortable travel you should plan your towing load for somewhere around 80% of the upper limits as a typical, every day load. 

 

[Hill_Country]

As an alternative to shopping at a new RV dealer, may I suggest looking for a consignment lot.  We used one to sell our prior RV and I was quite impressed.  They told us what "book" was (I was shocked), suggested pricing, and took care of all the marketing and sales work.  They sent all offers to us and we could accept or reject.  Someone got a heck of a good deal and we were happy to not have to deal with selling it.  

Most consignment lots have extensive web pages if you do a little googling.  At the least you'll get an idea how much RV your money will buy.  Also, look at RVtrader.com.

Good luck.

[Corrie473]

18 hours ago, Kirk W said:

The axles are designed to carry more than half of the weight allowed because it would be very unusual for the load to be evenly distributed. The rear axle of a truck will always have a higher limit than the front because the truck bed is designed to carry extra weight. The same axles may be used in more than one model of truck and so they often have design limits that exceed those of the total truck. The GVWR is based not only on the axles, but also the brakes, suspension, engine, transmission, and a several other factors that do not impact axle ratings. You can safely put 3686# on the rear axle of you truck, so long as the total weight of the loaded truck with everyone in it and a full tank of fuel does not exceed 6100#, meaning no more than 2400# on the front axle.

Yes I realized after I posted that that it's not a contradiction to set a weight limit for each axle independently and then a different limit for the two as a system.... there are all multiple constraints on the system in other words. 

Also I'm glad you mentioned that you don't want to regularly stress it to the max because I am probably that guy that would have said "oh I'm at one pound under? I'm good"...

[Corrie473]

20 hours ago, TXiceman said:

Corrie, you have to come to the realization of just what your truck can tow may not give you the size trailer you want and have to either down size or up size the truck.  I would not want to try full timing in a $10000 trailer and smaller tow vehicle.  However, we have found people full timing in a class B and also an A-frame trailer.  

Have yo looked for a used Avion from the 1980's?  These are affordable, but will require some TLC to get then up to travel and full time.  We sold our restored 1989 35' Avion 7 years ago fro $16500.  Last time we saw it, 2 years ago, they had paid the same for it and it was not nearly as good of shape as when we sold it.

Good luck,

Ken

Yes I'm starting to agree that 10K won't buy a lot of trailer especially if you add the condition that it must be lightweight. I could move the budget up to 12K without too much angst, but 15K starts to make me uncomfortable...

But as far as I've seen the Class B and A are starting at a higher price point. 

A fixer upper is not really an option for me, I'm not handy and I have absolutely no one that I can enlist to help me on this project- and I mean NO ONE. 

 

[Corrie473]

17 hours ago, Hill_Country said:

As an alternative to shopping at a new RV dealer, may I suggest looking for a consignment lot.  We used one to sell our prior RV and I was quite impressed.  They told us what "book" was (I was shocked), suggested pricing, and took care of all the marketing and sales work.  They sent all offers to us and we could accept or reject.  Someone got a heck of a good deal and we were happy to not have to deal with selling it.  

Most consignment lots have extensive web pages if you do a little googling.  At the least you'll get an idea how much RV your money will buy.  Also, look at RVtrader.com.

Good luck.

Ok see I was wondering about that... i admit I had a bad experience with a consignment lot and buying a car...a few years back I had decided to get rid of the truck and located a vehicle on a consignment lot through Autotrader. I paid cash $4750, took it for a prepurchase inspection was told it was good, and the vehicle didn't make it 24 hours before it threw a rod. The consignment lot owner returned his commission of $475 but otherwise threw his hands up... the previous owner said the car was running perfectly when she dropped it off and I must have done something to it... I called a lawyer and was told "you signed the 'as is' paper, you're done"... sold it to a junkyard for $700, net loss around 3.5K. I went back to driving the truck. have not wanted anything to do with consignment lots since then. But. I don't know if that guy was a typical consignment lot owner. Maybe just a really bad apple. I have been looking on RVtrader a little trepidatiously...

[sandsys]

I don't remember if you ever told us where you are located but if you are anywhere near Houston, Texas, PPL is a good place to go window shopping. You sign in and they direct you to the appropriate section of their huge lot for the type of RV you are considering then turn you loose. You can stay as long as you want and no will will bug you. If you have questions someone will help you find the answers. When you are ready to seriously consider a unit, someone will walk your through the purchase. It's the most low key place to buy a used unit I have ever visited. We sold our previous Class A through them as well. They are well regarded among members of this forum.

Linda

[2gypsies]

Good suggestion.  We sold our motorhome within one month at PPL in Houston from a guy who flew in from Florida.  It was a very good experience.  They have listings by category.  Here are the travel trailers:

https://www.pplmotorhomes.com/used-rvs-for-sale/travel-trailer?sortBy=price+asc

Even if not buying there it's a good way to get some pricing ideas and floorplans.

[Hill_Country]

5 hours ago, 2gypsies said:

Good suggestion.  We sold our motorhome within one month at PPL in Houston from a guy who flew in from Florida.  It was a very good experience.  They have listings by category.  Here are the travel trailers:

https://www.pplmotorhomes.com/used-rvs-for-sale/travel-trailer?sortBy=price+asc

Even if not buying there it's a good way to get some pricing ideas and floorplans.

PPL is exactly who I was thinking of, but wasn't going to mention because I didn't know the OP's location.  We sold our last fiver through them and was very impressed by their business model.  You can get a lemon anywhere, but PPL is very low key, no pressure and I thought their pricing model was very fair to all parties.  Certainly a good place to look to see what an RV should sell for.