The current RV Industry

[bruce t]

I have way too much time on my hands!!! But another thread, 'RV-Industry death spiral', hit a nerve. Made me think. And too much time and thinking don't always bode well!!

We often talk about quality control, features and of course price. That's all well and good. But what about RV design? How long has it been since there has been a change/rethink in the way America RVs have been designed? Come on? Think. Back in the mid 90's slides entered the market. (I'm generalizing). DP's have become more popular but design hasn't changed. Colour exteriors rather than cream or white. But apart from new gimmicks, bells and whistles and some electronics what has changed?

5th wheels are always front bedroom and rear lounge/kitchen. (Yes generalizing again). Motorhomes always have rear bedrooms. Side doors are rare. So where's the innovation? Where is the break from tradition, (read easy)? Look at a few European RVs and see what I mean. Wonderfully creative designs. Curved cupboards. Lounge with panoramic windows in trailers. I could go on and on. But flick through a few of the manufacturers on this link. https://motorhomeseurope.com/625/motorhome-rv-makes-and-manufacturers/

Yes I know different conditions. But why can't some of these ideas be imported/stolen by US manufacturers? And don't say they wont handle the conditions here in the USA. They are doing well in many other parts of the world. Besides you can't complain about the quality of USA built RVs and then turn around and say they are built better than European ones.

If the price was 'reasonable'. And if the quality matched the price. Would European features/layouts/size work in the USA? And if not how would you change the design of USA RVs to get them a whole new look and feel. A 1000hp pusher 50ft long doesn't count!!!

regards

 

 

[Jack Mayer]

Many of the European innovations are starting to trickle into the North American market. But the biggest barrier is price. Many of the European components are very high quality, and priced accordingly. I'll give you one example. Truma has a "killer" continuous hot water heater they introduced int he NA market. I was a tester, and I have been using it for 2.5 years now. It works EXCEPTIONALLY well. I often am asked how much it costs...and when I reply the people go WOW, I'd NEVER pay that when I can get a conventional heater for a fraction of that price. But you get what you pay for.  Just an example. It works in my rig because the custom builders are expected to use "the best" available components. It also works in small motorized RV that are high quality. But it would never be accepted in the "production" RV World. Too expensive. 

As far as interior elements, again, some of the European design features are being used. But they generally are far more expensive to produce.

Your idea is a good one, and I'm personally working on some changes in the 5er market....mainly based around component usage. But it will be a higher end product.  Not a mass market product. The idea is to pull from the upper-mid motorhome market....think King Air, etc. And create a system that has as many amenities in a matched truck/trailer. And a comparable fit/finish. At a fraction of the price. Not for everyone, but market research shows there is a market there.

[bruce t]

Jack I think if manufacturers were to introduce items such as Truma hot water and diesel heaters the America buyers would love them. Regardless of cost they would love them. But there is a resistance from manufacturers to get out of the rut.

My main thrust of the thread though was not on 'detail' such as 'options' but rather on design itself. Why is that the yachting industry can sell a boat with curves, (yes I know boats don't have many straight lines), in the cabinets? Why can't we have a motorhome with a rear bay window like a 5th wheel? Why do trailers not have a bay window, front or rear, like a 5th wheel?

Why no composite walls? One piece roofs?

For sure there will be a limited market. But over time there would be a trickle down affect.

Imagination is all that designers lack.

 

[Jack Mayer]

Lots of motorhomes have Euro style cabinets. They tend to be the higher priced in their class,but they exist and have for many years. There are generally no bay windows in the "front" because over time it has proven to be a big issue with water entry and the solution to that is pretty expensive. But there have been several trailers with them over the years. New Horizons has a one-piece laminated roof. Spacecraft has a one or two piece roof, depending on rig size.  But I do get your drift and tend to agree with you. And there are no production towable RVs that meet the standards of a yacht. There are a few motorized that do...and in both cases it is only fit/finish, not infrastructure.

[Ray,IN]

Jack is spot-on! Americans as a whole want the highest quality, but at the lowest possible price, IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN! IMO, the quality and longevity we want was destroyed by sending the message our priority is low price.

For instance, how many Foretravel, Prevost, or Newell Motorhomes have you looked at? The majority of people cannot afford such a MH, yet we expect the same quality in an entry-level MH.

I remember when seeing a MH on the road was unusual and infrequent, now you seldom miss seeing one, but most are entry-level, builders listened to potential customers and began building accordingly.

 

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

The marine market is the same way.  You can buy a Bayliner or Sea Ray pretty cheap, but everyone wants Hatteras or Tiara Yacht quality. What we built was in the $10,000 per foot range.  Our smallest model cost $320,000..... by downsizing the engine package we could drop to the $280k mark, but the quality stayed the same.  Custom cabinets, all high-end composite construction, quality components, etc.  Maybe that's why we're out of business now, but we NEVER had warranty work..... And we still have hull warranties in effect.

[bigjim]

Keep in mind that lots of us have much tighter budgets. I would be happy to have a sound base and cheaper interiors. I have been very fortunate that I got a 2year old 1997Sunnybrook TT  that is not top quality but still pretty good and has held up well considering my fulltiming in it since Nov 1999. Almost all components have held up well. I am afraid to jinx myself by saying everything that is still working.  

[Kirk W]

34 minutes ago, Alie&Jim's Carrilite said:

Maybe that's why we're out of business now, but we NEVER had warranty work.....

There are many an RV builder who tried to stay with quality and the company failed in the effort. You have to pay more for quality and far too few of us are willing to do so in an RV. Companies like Superior, Travco, Avion, and Barth, just to name a few. 

[bruce t]

My issue is not the 'quality'. Rather the lack of innovation and new ideas. They don't have to cost money. There are many custom motorhome builders in the $$$$$$$ range. But they still build the same basic motorhome.

A few months back we looked inside a few new C and B Class motorhomes. They were terrible. So much stuffed in there that you would have to live outside. They were like caves on wheels. Where's the light and bright units? Driver seats that didn't swivel. One huge bed taking up the rear end. These are all design flaws not money/quality issues.

regards.

[Kirk W]

4 minutes ago, bruce t said:

So much stuffed in there that you would have to live outside. They were like caves on wheels. Where's the light and bright units? Driver seats that didn't swivel. One huge bed taking up the rear end. These are all design flaws not money/quality issues.

 

If you are correct and your vision would sell in the US market, then why has no manufacturer tried introducing such an RV? Seems to me that if it were that obvious, someone would give your ideas a try. Might be that we are asking the wrong people but should be sending messages to someone like RVIA and their members. Perhaps a letter to the editor of RV Business might get some response?

[Jack Mayer]

1 hour ago, bruce t said:

A few months back we looked inside a few new C and B Class motorhomes. They were terrible. So much stuffed in there that you would have to live outside. They were like caves on wheels. Where's the light and bright units? Driver seats that didn't swivel. One huge bed taking up the rear end. These are all design flaws not money/quality issues.

regards.

Not all are like that. Especially in the B and C class there are a number of builders that have contemporary "euro" interiors, are very bright inside, and have rational seating. I' not saying that is the majority of units, but there are definitely more than one. You simply need to walk around one of the large RV shows like Tampa or Hershey and you will see some "innovations".

[Striper]

My main complaint with the RV industry is the DARK interiors.  In 8 months of looking for a Motor Home I only found 2 with a light interior.  1 of them is sitting in my driveway and is much bigger than I wanted.  But again, I refused to have a Cherry or Oak interior and that seems to be what they want to build.

Joe

[Jack Mayer]

5 minutes ago, Striper said:

My main complaint with the RV industry is the DARK interiors. 

Joe

That is very true.  And the majority of people "like" those interiors. I've actually taken non-scientific surveys on the topic. But I'm with you, I prefer the lighter, more contemporary interior. We put natural cherry in our current rig. It has honey'ed up a good bit, but is still a "little" lighter. For wood I actually prefer maple with a whitewash...but that is kinda "old fashioned" these days. A painted cabinet can look great, though. 

[bigjim]

I too like the lighter interiors. One thing I haven't figured out is the move to go dark on the outside of many and the dark covers like on the roof air cond. and for TT the propane tank covers are often black now. 

[bruce t]

I don't think a few 'old farts' on a RV forum are going to change the industry.

But it still makes me wonder WHY? I'm sure the answer is just the same as my father always gave me, "because we have always done it that way".

However the reality is that the weekend warriors drive the market. Fulltimers and longterm users are only a psst of the market.

regards

 

[richfaa]

The manufacturers build what sells and they  know what sells. My pet complaint is the 5th wheels get heavier and heavier our Mid range Montana has  GVW of 16K.I would need a new truck to pull heavier F-450 or HDT if we upgraded the RV. We are priced out of the "Quality"? Rv market.

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

There are pics of a Continental Coach that is modern looking.  Bright, contemporary styling with modern appliances.  This particular unit has a great feature for dog owners.  The feed bowl is built into the front side of the kitchen island.  

I've thought about buying a worn out Teton or similar unit and gutting it.  Paint the interior and call IKEA to fit some cabinets in.  

[mptjelgin]

When we ordered our Hitchhiker we were pleased to be able to specify light oak cabinets, light colored counter-tops, light colored wood laminate floor, etc. So many of the RV's at that time featured black counter-tops, dark cherry cabinets, etc. and were very dark indeed on the inside. But obviously that is what the majority of customers wanted and we find many folks happily living in those units today. 

But NuWa is yet another example of a solid manufacturer that has fallen by the wayside. Quality units without a lot of flash, but they have good bones!

[Big5er]

12 minutes ago, mptjelgin said:

. So many of the RV's at that time featured black counter-tops, dark cherry cabinets, etc. and were very dark indeed on the inside. But obviously that is what the majority of customers wanted and we find many folks happily living in those units today. 

LOL  y'all are gonna hate my new 5th wheel 

[Kirk W]

14 hours ago, Big5er said:

LOL  y'all are gonna hate my new 5th wheel

So what are you buying? I'd gather that "down-size" isn't a part of the plan?  

[Big5er]

13 hours ago, Kirk Wood said:

So what are you buying? I'd gather that "down-size" isn't a part of the plan?  

 naa, a bit longer trailer.....full of dark wood. The stuff everyone is complaining about

[SecondWind]

On ‎4‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 2:47 PM, bruce t said:

I'm sure the answer is just the same as my father always gave me, "because we have always done it that way".

 

 

On ‎4‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 4:06 PM, richfaa said:

The manufacturers build what sells and they  know what sells.

IMHO, the above two statements are both correct.  As with any other industry,  the powers-that-be are going to keep cranking out the same high-profit, no-risk product they have been cranking out for years.  To be imaginative would be to take a big risk, and a dive in profits, as it would take awhile for the "new thing" to catch on with the buying public...  if it caught on at all.  The biggest problem in the way of this happening is called a "stockholder".  Look at Wall Street today... no-vision, short-term profit at all costs.  Stockholders don't like looking more than 2 quarters ahead, and they certainly aren't going to wait for their payoff.

 

Cheers,

Ken

[RV Vagabond Jerry]

I think the Class C's look rediculous. Looks like a travel trailer crashed into a pickup truck. 3 doors in a 20 foot unit when 45 foot Class A's have only one door! General design could be greatly improved.

[somewhereinusa]

5 hours ago, RV Vagabond Jerry said:

I think the Class C's look rediculous. Looks like a travel trailer crashed into a pickup truck. 3 doors in a 20 foot unit when 45 foot Class A's have only one door! General design could be greatly improved.

Just curious as to how you would change that?  A class C is built on a commercial chassis that is basically made using the front end of a van that has two doors. If you take away the "van" stuff it wouldn't be a class C anymore it would be a small class A.