Hayes Air Brake Controller - New Rig has Carlisle elec./hydraulic

[tippey]

I'm trying to determine if I have basic trailer compatibility with my Volvo 660 which has a Hayes controller. Our new to us Carriage/Royals International is fitted with the Carlisle Brake Actuator over the disk brakes on our rig. We have not road tested yet since we had the 5th wheel delivered to the park we're staying in. Basic question is are they compatible at all or do I have to start out with a 'smarter' brake controller that the forum has been discussing like Direct link.

 

We have lots to learn but this is a big question as we'd like to get back on the road as soon as we're safe to go. Time is a factor however safety will trump time if necessary.

[Big5er]

The Hayes works like a charm with my electric over hydraulic brakes.

Your actuator is looking for an electric signal from the truck. Any brake controller with do that.

[tippey]

Sounds good. I will see if I can get a light at the Hayes. It does not light up at all using the main foot brake, using its' own lever or using the Johnson. Maybe someone had previously turned the adjustment knob/head on the Hayes too far in one direction or maybe I'll discover a different issue. The last rig used with my truck was towing a DRV Elite and my rig is probably a little lighter in the 18K range until we get it fully loaded and weighed we're just guessing.

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

Plug in the 7-way cord and have someone step on the brakes with the truck running or at leat aired up, and see if the actuator in the trailer for the disc brakes operates. If it does then the Hayes is working. The light on ours doesn't work either, but the unit functions correctly.

Don't forget that turning the knob "Clockwise" Decreases power output.

[tippey]

Thanks, got it. The light did actually light up when I bob-tailed it home when it was purchased.. We did check the blue/brake pin on the 7way and it registered voltage. Did the same thing on the trailer side of the 7way and we applied voltage via a lead on another vehicle. We then heard the Carlisle actuator react so it worked. My issue was that bringing it back to the RV park I felt that I was not getting any braking action and my Volvo brakes smelled like hot brakes. Not something I want to drive with so we'll check everything out starting with an adjustment on the Hayes controller. I've had typical pick up truck controllers in the past and I liked being able to feather the brakes independently. I'll try that on the Volvo this week.

[RandyA]

The Carsile (Now Cargo) works fine with the "simple" controllers like the Hayes that only measure resistance to determine the applied voltage. Now, some of the built-in controllers on newer Dodge and Ford PU's require an additional module to work correctly. But, you ain't hauling with a LGT so all is good.

[tippey]

Thanks everyone,

 

i am a day or so away from being fully loaded with all our worldly possessions. Then I'll be hooking up to test brakes & hayes controller adjustment.

 

If all is well I am taking it down to our nearest Pilot station for a CAT Scale weight that will be our first recorded weight. We hope we're all within limits because our 5th wheel is loaded down with all the bell and whistle options that reduce cargo weights.

 

Our updates on this will tell our tale and also tell us how quickly we can roll on!

 

Tipper

 

 

[tippey]

Plug in the 7-way cord and have someone step on the brakes with the truck running or at leat aired up, and see if the actuator in the trailer for the disc brakes operates. If it does then the Hayes is working. The light on ours doesn't work either, but the unit functions correctly.

Don't forget that turning the knob "Clockwise" Decreases power output.

Houston... I still have some kind of problem. Part of this may be my lack of understanding the relationship between the truck air system itself, the Hayes Controller and the Carlisle brake setup on our rig.All i can say for sure is that I still do not believe I have brakes of any kind on the rig regardless of the Hayes know setting from full counter to full clockwise. It days past on a simple brake controller in a pick up I could slow coast and manually move my controller lever to the right to test and to apply the brakes on my trailer. I hooked up the rig to the truck and tried that yesterday and cannot get any braking action. I an a mobile RV repair guy have individually put a tester on the 7 pin brake wire and get a voltage reading on the correct pin for both truck and trailer sides of the 7 pin The dealer demonstrated and i heard the Carlisle activate braking action when he pulled the brakeaway to test the emergency brake wiring.

 

I am also leary that I could have a dragging brake on the truck side since I could smell a slight burning brake odor after braking at exit ramps. It just felt like the tail was wagging the dog!

 

Now we cannot begin our journeys with the new rig until we know we're road safe and I could have a wiring problem and/or an air line problem or a bad Hayes controller. As you can read here I don't know who would be a local expert on both truck air brake systems and trailer brake systems and harness troubleshooting. I could go to Volvo and then go to a trailer repair but where to begin... LOL on the outside... wanting to be safe is a no brainer but how to get there is my challenge of the day.

[Big5er]

I'd start by testing each "section" of the entire system. Do you have power at the controller? Does that power run all the way to the 7 pin on the back of the truck? Does the power come out the back of the 7 pin on the trailer? Do you get power at the Carlisle? If you have power from the Hayes to the 7-pin at the back of the truck, when you apply the brakes, and none when you release them, then I would say the Hayes is working. If that is the case, then logic says it must be trailer. Check the 7 pin, and then the Carlisle. Got a friend close? Have someone else plug into the trailer and see if their controller will make the brakes function. You say you know the Carlisle work when the dealer tested it with the breakaway. Have you tried to duplicate that? That is supposed to work even when you are not connected to the truck (its sole purpose) but if it isn't then you have issues.

 

 

Part of this may be my lack of understanding the relationship between the truck air system itself, the Hayes Controller and the Carlisle brake setup on our rig.

Have you downloaded the manual (installation and operation) from Hayes?

 

Also, if you mentioned it, then I must have missed it but where are you? Someone might be able to suggest a shop close?

[tippey]

I'd start by testing each "section" of the entire system. Do you have power at the controller? Does that power run all the way to the 7 pin on the back of the truck? Does the power come out the back of the 7 pin on the trailer? Do you get power at the Carlisle? If you have power from the Hayes to the 7-pin at the back of the truck, when you apply the brakes, and none when you release them, then I would say the Hayes is working. If that is the case, then logic says it must be trailer. Check the 7 pin, and then the Carlisle. Got a friend close? Have someone else plug into the trailer and see if their controller will make the brakes function. You say you know the Carlisle work when the dealer tested it with the breakaway. Have you tried to duplicate that? That is supposed to work even when you are not connected to the truck (its sole p

 

Good suggestion to do a simpler process of elimination. I'll start to ask someone at the park (very few left for the summer ) That person can connect his 7 pin to my rig and see if it actuates my trailer brakes.

 

We are still in the AZ desert about 30 miles south of Tucson off I-19 at the DeAnza Trails RV Resort.

 

We had a mobile RV service come to put a meter on our connections but they were separated since our HDT is parked in their storage area we checked them out without an actual connection. There was power coming to the blue/brake pin on the 7 pin at the truck and no power when I released the brake. Same test was done to the trailer side of the 7 pin connector and the service man tested by pinning a 12 volt lead from his truck to my trailer attached to the brake/blue/pin on my trailers 7 pin It made the Carlisle Actuator sing.

 

Now when I actually hook up my truck to my rig I can't seem to apply power to the Carlisle regardless of the Hayes knob position. I will check my fuses and 'hope' this PIA is only a fuse.

[Ronbo]

If there is a fuse on the trailer for the blue wire, it may be blown. That will prevent the actuator from getting the signal from the truck. The break away switch back feeds voltage to the actuator from the RV battery. Check for voltage on the trailer plug for the tab that applies the brake. Should be none. Now pull the break away switch and check for voltage. Should have approx 12 volts. If no voltage, you either have a diode in line or an open fuse/wire.

[tippey]

If there is a fuse on the trailer for the blue wire, it may be blown. That will prevent the actuator from getting the signal from the truck. The break away switch back feeds voltage to the actuator from the RV battery. Check for voltage on the trailer plug for the tab that applies the brake. Should be none. Now pull the break away switch and check for voltage. Should have approx 12 volts. If no voltage, you either have a diode in line or an open fuse/wire.

 

I'll try this first. Thank you!

Tipper

[tippey]

I'd start by testing each "section" of the entire system. Do you have power at the controller? Does that power run all the way to the 7 pin on the back of the truck? Does the power come out the back of the 7 pin on the trailer? Do you get power at the Carlisle? If you have power from the Hayes to the 7-pin at the back of the truck, when you apply the brakes, and none when you release them, then I would say the Hayes is working. If that is the case, then logic says it must be trailer. Check the 7 pin, and then the Carlisle. Got a friend close? Have someone else plug into the trailer and see if their controller will make the brakes function. You say you know the Carlisle work when the dealer tested it with the breakaway. Have you tried to duplicate that? That is supposed to work even when you are not connected to the truck (its sole purpose) but if it isn't then you have issues.

 

 

Have you downloaded the manual (installation and operation) from Hayes?

 

Also, if you mentioned it, then I must have missed it but where are you? Someone might be able to suggest a shop close?

Yes I did and it was a 2 pager with the only information being how to increase/decrease using the slider knob on the Hayes. (at least that's all I could comprehend. Ah the bliss of not having much of a clue. LOL

[Big5er]

Yes I did and it was a 2 pager with the only information being how to increase/decrease using the slider knob on the Hayes. (at least that's all I could comprehend. Ah the bliss of not having much of a clue. LOL

I just thought it might help you to track the power wire and the ground.

Speaking of ground, your Carlisle has to be grounded somewhere. Is it using the same ground circuit when powered by the truck as it would be using the breakaway switch? All this talk of 12v power and I don't recall anyone mentioning the ground. I have a small kayak trailer that just hates grounding through the trailer frame. The ground (from the 4 flat plug) was screwed to the tongue and all the lights were grounded to the frame near their locations. I had to run a ground wire from the plug to every light when I got the smart.

[rpsinc]

Have you checked that the plug on the trailer hasnt been rewired causing the connections to be off from what is typical. I had that on one of my trailers. Everything worked on the trailer I usually pulled, but on the one that was seldom pulled, the wires were rotated one position. That really caused some head scratching!!!

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

On the truck side... if you're getting power to the blue line when brakes are applied and zero with no application then the Hayes is working on the truck.

On the trailer side, pulling the emergency pin activates the actuator, but the actuator doesn't activate when hooked to the truck and plugged in with proper air on the truck.

Check the wiring on the plugs, making sure that the wiring thru the plug and receptacle doesn't swap sides.

Do all the lights work correctly when hitched and plugged in?

[tippey]

On the truck side... if you're getting power to the blue line when brakes are applied and zero with no application then the Hayes is working on the truck.

On the trailer side, pulling the emergency pin activates the actuator, but the actuator doesn't activate when hooked to the truck and plugged in with proper air on the truck.

Check the wiring on the plugs, making sure that the wiring thru the plug and receptacle doesn't swap sides.

Do all the lights work correctly when hitched and plugged in?

 

I will start checking the plug wiring to verify functions. I'd like to also paste on some dielectric grease to each pin position on top of testing. Big5er has a good point as well to check my grounding points.

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

Checking the ground (s) is a good idea. Does the truck have a Jackaloppe? Easier to diagnose if it does.

If the park will let you and the site large enough, park the truck like your ready to hook up and go thru each part.

If the brake actuator doesn't see ground thru the plug it may not work. I'm not familiar with the Carlisle pump.

Back to-

If the pump runs with the E-brake pulled

And you have brake function at the truck 7-way plug

Then there is an issue in the wiring from the trailer 7-way plug to the pump.

In the pinbox there is a junction box (or at least in our Carrilite) where you can remove the cover and trace/ track/ ohm wiring.

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

https://www.etrailer.com/static/images/pics/q/u/qu40881_800.jpg

 

It's not the 7-way plug but shows what should be wired at the actuator.

[tippey]

Checking the ground (s) is a good idea. Does the truck have a Jackaloppe? Easier to diagnose if it does.

If the park will let you and the site large enough, park the truck like your ready to hook up and go thru each part.

If the brake actuator doesn't see ground thru the plug it may not work. I'm not familiar with the Carlisle pump.

Back to-

If the pump runs with the E-brake pulled

And you have brake function at the truck 7-way plug

Then there is an issue in the wiring from the trailer 7-way plug to the pump.

In the pinbox there is a junction box (or at least in our Carrilite) where you can remove the cover and trace/ track/ ohm wiring.

yes we do have a Jackaloppe installed. (I am glad to say...) I also took a meter reading of the Carlisle Actuator yesterday and measured a constant 13.3 V coming into and going out of what looks like an isolator of some kind just before the wiring goes into the Actuator. I'll try the procedures you've suggested as well. Here is also a picture of the Actuator for what its' worth. :-)

 

Thanks.

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

That looks like an automatic resetting fuse / breaker. Acts like an inline fuse, but resets itself.

[rpsinc]

I had a situation also that caused the lights on the trailer to work sometimes and not other times. I tried all kinds of troubleshooting things, asked others for opinions and finally gave up. Well, my brain was working overtime on this one sleepless night and I ended up checking the plug the next morning. Come to discover that the ground connector in the plug had become depresses and was stuck in that postion. No ground meant not ANYTHING or some lights but very sketchy. Replaced the plug and all is good again. Had never had this happen before but makes sense that as much as these get plugged/unplugged it is bound to happen.

[Big5er]

I'm with Jim, that's a circuit breaker. You could replace it (temporarily) with a fuse or simply check the power on it as someone else steps on the brake for you.

Dumb question: Do the brake lights work on the trailer while the brakes do not?

[GlennWest]

I had a situation also that caused the lights on the trailer to work sometimes and not other times. I tried all kinds of troubleshooting things, asked others for opinions and finally gave up. Well, my brain was working overtime on this one sleepless night and I ended up checking the plug the next morning. Come to discover that the ground connector in the plug had become depresses and was stuck in that postion. No ground meant not ANYTHING or some lights but very sketchy. Replaced the plug and all is good again. Had never had this happen before but makes sense that as much as these get plugged/unplugged it is bound to happen.

yes those cheap rubber plugs for rv go bad. I went with the heavier metal setup truckers use. Just wired it for rv app.

[tippey]

I'm with Jim, that's a circuit breaker. You could replace it (temporarily) with a fuse or simply check the power on it as someone else steps on the brake for you.

Dumb question: Do the brake lights work on the trailer while the brakes do not?

I did check dc voltage using a chassis ground on the trailer and my hot lead on either post. both gave me 13.3 Volts reading. I will retest all the standard functions this afternoon to see if the brake lights, turns etc appear to work or not. Still looking for someone in the park that has a 5th wheel to do a process of elimination that way too!