Dollytrolley Posted November 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 If you unprotect the "Computation" tab you can now see the formulas same goes for the last tab. Thankfully we are not dealing with Rockets or even airplanes, but I did launch my van through the air some 40 years ago and I did not need a slide rule or computer to do it. I just haven't figured out how the Duke boys did in all the time and I do it once and break my back in 3 places. I am glad the HDT has airride seats! If we are a few pounds off I will just tell the passengers to move to another seat, just like the copilot/ stewadress tell me when I ride on those prop type puddle jumper airplanes. Thanks Star..... I should have tried the unprotect sheet ........just had a geezer-moment....... Anyhow the sheet has the basic concept captured and can be modified to fit various trucks if you know enough spreadsheet lingo...... What I propose is a variation of the DYIguy sheet that has a little less basic truck component detail (don't really need engine or tranny weights since these weights and arms are part of the base weight and CG of the truck that we know when we weigh the truck for the first time) ..... I don't want to get too many folks too upset but I might putter-around and blend DYIguy sheet with a more open-view spreadsheet (Item name, Item-arm, Item Weight, Item Moment) in the visible columns on the spread sheet and the location of the Datum-line that is the point that all arms are measured from. Drive on..........(when bored.......Spreadsheet some......) 97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noteven Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Deleted. "Are we there yet?" asked no motorcycle rider, ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dollytrolley Posted November 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 DolleyT, Let me see if I can explain where this approach falls apart. Picture a frame with 100" wheelbase. Now put 50lbs. directly over the front axle and 50 lbs directly over the rear axle. Let's now do another identical frame with 100lbs. exactly midway (50") between the axles. Now let's move the rear axle forward 25". See the problem with not knowing the weight distribution. After you move the axle you can determine the result, but not accurately before... and then is too late. You really need to do the job on scales. Not easy. Stekay, You do bring to the surface a point about weight & balance calculations and that is that often the more we calculate the LESS accurate or real world Weight &Balance becomes because of ......."weight and arm creep"....... Often in older aircraft the Weight & Balance records history-chain is .......vast in that the equipment that has been removed and replaced and modifications will often result in the aircraft needing to be re-weighed and a new base CG be established AND a new equipment listing be composed as well. So your point about re weighing is valid as a way to refresh a computed Weight & Balance listing as it ages...... Drive on.........(Recalc.......with age) 97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoDirectionHome Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 why Weight & Balance calculators DO actually function YES they do, but while I haven't read all the responses since replying, it goes to the difference between CG & moment of inertia (or weight distribution). You cant have two variables. On the plane (i have a C172N) you are calculating CG, and not moving the wheels (wish I could sometimes) or wheelbase. If you use "extreme" example to explain (think 100 ft wheelbase) it becomes more obvious. "There are No Experts, Do the Math!" 2014 Freightliner Cascadia DD16 600hp 1850ft-lb 18spd 3.31 260"wb SpaceCraft S-470 SKP #131740 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoDirectionHome Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Someone's wife on the forum is a math teacher. I can't for the life of me recall the theorem of using extreme examples to illustrate something more clearly. Does anyone remember the name of that theorem? It's driving me crazy! "There are No Experts, Do the Math!" 2014 Freightliner Cascadia DD16 600hp 1850ft-lb 18spd 3.31 260"wb SpaceCraft S-470 SKP #131740 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dollytrolley Posted November 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Someone's wife on the forum is a math teacher. I can't for the life of me recall the theorem of using extreme examples to illustrate something more clearly. Does anyone remember the name of that theorem? It's driving me crazy! Stekay, Let me help you out with crazy........that IS my field of expertise........ What has you upset is that purpose of calculating a aircraft Weight & Balance is for performance AND handling qualities.......the purpose of HDT Weight & Balance is for determining axle loading for the most part. As for changing the landing gear location on your Cessna 172.......simple.....get out your check book (first step in ANY aircraft operation) and buy a set of Edo floats.......remove your landing gear.......install the floats.......Re-calculate the Weight & Balance........ADD more $$$$ to your checking account........ This is a BIG example but it works....... Drive on......(Weighty issues......but fun ) 97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Mayer Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Just FYI - Mark Shelly's spreadsheet has proven to be pretty accurate. A significant number of trucks have been run through its predictions and then built and weighed and it has proven to be remarkably close. Jack & Danielle Mayer #60376 Lifetime Member Living on the road since 2000PLEASE no PM's. Email me. jackdanmayer AT gmail 2016 DRV Houston 44' 5er (we still have it) 2022 New Horizons 43' 5er 2016 Itasca 27N 28' motorhome 2019 Volvo 860, D13 455/1850, 236" wb, I-Shift, battery-based APU No truck at the moment - we use one of our demo units 2016 smart Passion, piggyback on the truck -------------------------------------------------------------------------See our website for info on New Horizons 5th wheels, HDTs as tow vehicles, communications on the road, and use of solar powerwww.jackdanmayer.com Principal in RVH Lifestyles. RVH-Lifestyles.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dollytrolley Posted November 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Just FYI - Mark Shelly's spreadsheet has proven to be pretty accurate. A significant number of trucks have been run through its predictions and then built and weighed and it has proven to be remarkably close. Indeed.......math a physics still do work well. In the 'Hair-Splitting-World" of aerospace it is amazing how often a large projects Calculated Weight & Balance AND the Actual "Mass-Qualified" Weight & Balance numbers come out very close....... IF any substantial differences occur between the two methods........it usually cam be traced to out of tolerance scales or defective data input into the calculations.........( with me a third defect is my poor math ciphering......) So......do the heaver singled forum members make ongoing loading adjustments using Marks spreadsheet? Drive on.........(Enjoy the ride.....) 97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickeieio Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 D.T. said: So......do the heavier singled forum members make ongoing loading adjustments using Marks spreadsheet? Drive on.........(Enjoy the ride.....) What about us heavy weights who are married? I feel left out............... The above discussion is one that makes me stay tandem, I still have many options open. Under bed storage is not one of them. And I can assure you that I NEVER flew a plane which was over loaded.......by much. KW T-680, POPEMOBILE Newmar X-Aire, VATICAN Lots of old motorcycles, Moto Guzzi Griso and Spyder F3 currently in the front row Young enough to play in the dirt as a retired farmer. contact me at rickeieio1@comcast.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoDirectionHome Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 .get out your check book (first step in ANY aircraft operation) and buy a set of Edo floats Ironically, I currently work for EDO > Exelis > ITT-Exelis > Harris "There are No Experts, Do the Math!" 2014 Freightliner Cascadia DD16 600hp 1850ft-lb 18spd 3.31 260"wb SpaceCraft S-470 SKP #131740 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peety3 Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 For the record, we aren't dealing in the hair-splitting world of aerospace. We're driving a truck around town & country. If we obey the rulebook (600 pounds per inch of steer tire tread width, 20k max per axle, 17k/axle if tandem, bridge formula) and obey the weight plate on the door frame, nobody's going to disassemble the truck and declare that the taillight was not installed with a DOT-certified signature in the binder... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix2013 Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 D.T., I had a Stinson, little bit of the trim tab would raise that tail up very nicely off the ground with any load, although I never tried to smuggle gold bars in the baggage compartment. Incidentally, yours truly, presented RV Weight and Balance seminar at the 2015 Rally. I had a real life case case study for the subject matter of how loading changes things between truck and trailer. When you are dealing with 33,740 fifth (at gross), things get "interesting" quickly. The basis for the calculations were the three fulcrum points in the truck/fifth setup. Then the numbers (in yellow) obtained from the manufacturer (empty weight) and CAT scale numbers obtained with the vehicles loaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dollytrolley Posted November 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 D.T., I had a Stinson, little bit of the trim tab would raise that tail up very nicely off the ground with any load, although I never tried to smuggle gold bars in the baggage compartment. Incidentally, yours truly, presented RV Weight and Balance seminar at the 2015 Rally. I had a real life case case study for the subject matter of how loading changes things between truck and trailer. When you are dealing with 33,740 fifth (at gross), things get "interesting" quickly. The basis for the calculations were the three fulcrum points in the truck/fifth setup. Then the numbers (in yellow) obtained from the manufacturer (empty weight) and CAT scale numbers obtained with the vehicles loaded. Henry.....U-R-Dee-Man...... Nice looking dash 2.......... Hang on......I have resisted babbling about Stinsons............but.........maybe a short version....(ya right) Late 60's early 70's I needed a four place truck of a bird....so......I bought a $1,100 dash 2 that was not pretty and very long-of tooth.... The old Franklin Heavy-Case (with a small crack) 165 was pretty good at fouling plugs but my daily flights to and from work was over high desert so when too many plugs would foul I would land on a road or not-too-bumpy-spot then hop out and clean the plugs.........sorta-hillbilly-progressive-maint-program....... Finally the old Franklin just started fouling plugs faster than I could clean them so..........new engine time.........no not just another Franklin......no maybe a...........0-360A1A Lyc 180 HP..........problem no one had a STC.........No problem .....I would fab up a mount, exhaust, intake, baffles..........and a thousand or two other "details" and invite the FAA down to my "Garage" to obtain "FAA-Approval"........ya right.... Funny thing happens when you change from a six-cly engine to a four-cyl in a aircraft.........a obscure design factor comes into play called 'Jug-Factor"........Jug-Factor says in a nutshell that if a six cyl engine blows a jug (cyl) off of the engine will shake a bit.......IF a four cyl engine blows a jug it shakes like you-can-NOT-imagine........so.........you got it a lighter four cyl engine mount had to be 333% stronger than the Franklin engine mount..........AND......by the way the airframe needed to pass that same test numbers........ So.........design and build the motor mount......build a 11" off centerline 29" long test mount fixture with a chain link to a dead-man-in-the-floor.....take the main gear wheels off and pivot-block the axles.......tension-tie the main gear axles together..........AND.........then with the aircraft leveled and secured to the dead-man...........just........pile 940 lbs of ballast (50 Lb bags of dog food) on the horz stab for static simulation AND then bring the the test up to 1100 lbs of ballast for the dynamic-load-test for........SIX Seconds.......ya right..... Anyhow it was a very difficult test.........getting 1,100 pounds of dog food bags to stay on the horz stab of the ole Stinson was almost impossible........oh ya......the rest of the airframe and mount passed the test without any deflection at all....... So I threw the engine in a flew a FAA cert-test series and obtained a one-time STC (Supplemental Type Certificate) and life was ........fair..... Darn phone started ringing at all hours of the day and night with Stinson owners wanting to try a 0-360 Lyc conversion.........I told them that I was not in the conversion game and my STC was a One-Time-STC....NOT a Multiple-STC.......... Shortly Univair Aircraft of Colorado (Stinson type certificate owner) called and wanted me to fly out to the plant so they could fly the 0-360 lyc Stinson........so I flew out and they were amazed with the performance and economy of operation....... they cajoled me into converting the one-time STC into Multiple-STC and then sell them a 'license" for each kit that they sold........After several years Univair one-day came out with their own "Improved Lyc-Stinson-STC" and my Stinson-Conversion-Megga-Fortune dwindled to a few folks that just bought direct from us...... Henry I'll bet you thought that I had highjacked my own thread...... but the the Lyc 0-360 Stinson conversion had a VERY fun Weight & Balance outcome.........the FAA calculated and RE-Calculated and the Re-Re-Calculated the Weight & Balance of the Stinson......AND...... it had lost 67 Pounds of empty weight ..........HOWEVER.........The C G Remained exactly the same........ How could that be.........well the much SHORTER four-cylinder engine / prop combo was 67 pounds lighter BUT the center of MASS was farther forward so the CG remained the same even though the empty weight was reduced........ Happy ending...... Epilogue: ....A bit later in life I became.........entangled in some......aerospace projects that did not require FAA oversight ..........at first I thought ........finally the FAA is off my back........history proves sometimes be careful what you wish for.......without rules things can get pretty exciting, dangerous.....and......tragic..... Drive on........(Stay in.....balance) 97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dollytrolley Posted November 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 D.T. said: So......do the heavier singled forum members make ongoing loading adjustments using Marks spreadsheet? Drive on.........(Enjoy the ride.....) What about us heavy weights who are married? I feel left out............... Rick........don't feel left out..........my wife says the same thing.........about having to lug my heavy-A$$ around.......( used to think she was after my good looks.......then later after my .....$.......now....I don't......think....) Drive on........(keep your weight in.....balance) 97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix2013 Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 D.T. the airplane was vandalized, each instrument was smashed with a hammer (or something) then the cabin was set on fire. New instrument panel with a young fellow, several decades younger than the current version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alie&Jim's Carrilite Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Here is what not to do with an airframe- http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/brand-new-ac-130-ghostrider-a-total-loss-after-going-in-1743122173 Read thru some of the comments at the end, some are great! Alie & Jim + 8 paws 2017 DRV Memphis BART- 1998 Volvo 610 Lil'ole 6cyl Cummins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix2013 Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Dolly, doesn't sound like the Univair folks were up and up gentlemen, but I find it not uncommon with peddlers (pardon choice of words, marketeers and sales people). We spent few shekels with Univair before our 108 was whole and flyable again. But we had our own bit of good luck: We bought the whole aircraft as a total insurance loss (for parts, we were doing another Stinson) for guess what $1,000 !! (engine and all). We sent a request to get the logs from Oklahoma and we couldn't believe our luck, that 150HP Franklin had 60 hours on it since major overhaul before vandals got to it. So we immediately switched our "allegiance" to the second Stinson and used the first one for parts. That Franklin purred like a kitten, we had the metal,prop re-balanced and the 2100 RPM vibration was hardly noticeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunJuniper Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Thanks for the support Roger....... Memory care is a real......."adventure" Unfortunately mom is in the less-than-1% memory disabled population that is unable to be cared for in skilled-memory-care-facilities due to "extreme- violent / aggressive behavior" We keep her in a VERY serene and low-key environment and NEVER have more than two people in the room with her since more people scare her and bring a rage that is very intense. The vast majority of memory-care-workers are not often able to assist in this less than 1% population since standard memory-care mitigation is often results in "rage triggers". We have vetted and sifted a lot of memory-care workers and many truthfully decline to serve when they become aware of the task.......this is good we do not need well-intended-folks that often make care worse than better. For the most part we are well versed to what it takes to provide a environment that mom is able to enjoy good times........some times things are fair..........and once in a while things get real ugly..........it's not nice to be in the 1% sometimes......... Today is a pretty good day ........so far...... Enjoy the time with the old folks as best you can...........who knows some day we might just graduate from geezers.......to......old folks....... Drive on..........(Enjoy the ride.......) DT, i Truly feel and understand alot of what your going thru.... if you ever need to vent , feel free to get in touch. some of you also know i care for a parent with advanced alzheimers. and were starting to see the angry outbursts. something as simple as replacing a dryer turns into a angry outburst of how its "MY fault" and not the dryers fault its not working right and takes 3 hours to dry a load of clothes. on other occasions my wife has almost gotten hit and hes gotten aggressive with me. we are actively looking at a facility here that has a alzheimers unit and can deal with these kind of issues. while i dont think dads in the 1% by any means... i take care of my dad 24/7.... only time i get away is when my wife is off work and comes over to let me escape on friday/saturdays (and on occasion for the HDT rally) Fulltimer Class of 2007 1998 Volvo VNL64T610 Detroit Series 60 12.7 470HP/1650TQ Eaton 18spd 228"WB Tandem2006 40' ToyHauler 3 slides and a 14' Toybox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dollytrolley Posted November 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 DT, i Truly feel and understand alot of what your going thru.... if you ever need to vent , feel free to get in touch. some of you also know i care for a parent with advanced alzheimers. and were starting to see the angry outbursts. something as simple as replacing a dryer turns into a angry outburst of how its "MY fault" and not the dryers fault its not working right and takes 3 hours to dry a load of clothes. on other occasions my wife has almost gotten hit and hes gotten aggressive with me. we are actively looking at a facility here that has a alzheimers unit and can deal with these kind of issues. while i dont think dads in the 1% by any means... i take care of my dad 24/7.... only time i get away is when my wife is off work and comes over to let me escape on friday/saturdays (and on occasion for the HDT rally) Lou, Thank you very much for the support and kind words. We really enjoy the good times with mom and they are very good. When thing start to be not-so-good, we have that if we back away very gently..... she sometimes levels off and if nothing startles her she can start to ease down from her stress points.... All of the memory car drugs have only made her rage events worse so we now just keep a very serene environment and back way off during rage events and let her vent until she starts to peak and then descend into a more calm state. No TV or radio use whatsoever has helped a lot........ she just can not understand the fast pace talking and it will become a "rage trigger" in a flash.... We truly have a great time with mom a fair amount of the time ........and the ugly times are just events that we just have to set aside..... Lou your 24/7 care is a tough game for sure......please enjoy the calm times as short as they may be...... and know this is likely the best thing you will ever do in your life......our hat is off to you, your wife ..... and know that your dad raised a great son!! Drive on..........(Give great......care) 97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dollytrolley Posted November 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Dolly, doesn't sound like the Univair folks were up and up gentlemen, but I find it not uncommon with peddlers (pardon choice of words, marketeers and sales people). We spent few shekels with Univair before our 108 was whole and flyable again. But we had our own bit of good luck: We bought the whole aircraft as a total insurance loss (for parts, we were doing another Stinson) for guess what $1,000 !! (engine and all). We sent a request to get the logs from Oklahoma and we couldn't believe our luck, that 150HP Franklin had 60 hours on it since major overhaul before vandals got to it. So we immediately switched our "allegiance" to the second Stinson and used the first one for parts. That Franklin purred like a kitten, we had the metal,prop re-balanced and the 2100 RPM vibration was hardly noticeable. Henry WHO is that dapper-looking-bearded-studly-pilot with his paw on the go-knob ? ? ? do you know him? ? Henry here is your chance to relive your.........childhood..... I still have a pickup load of Stinson parts..........all yours for a few Dr. Peppers.....a few hours each night working on the ole Stinson and you will be a fuzzy-faced-kid.....again..... These folks think trucks are tough.........the ole Stinson was Tough but Light.....and thats a tough machine to design......Tough AND Light!! Drive on..........(Stinsons are classy.......) 97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdickinson Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Talking about weight n balance, take a look at some of the Dromader (Crophoppers) that are converted from piston pounders to turbine. The nose extends 6 > 10 ft https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VFtlwYL9FQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIy7ON4iU0s FF to 4:30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix2013 Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Henry WHO is that dapper-looking-bearded-studly-pilot with his paw on the go-knob ? ? ? do you know him? ? Henry here is your chance to relive your.........childhood..... I still have a pickup load of Stinson parts..........all yours for a few Dr. Peppers.....a few hours each night working on the ole Stinson and you will be a fuzzy-faced-kid.....again..... These folks think trucks are tough.........the ole Stinson was Tough but Light.....and thats a tough machine to design......Tough AND Light!! Drive on..........(Stinsons are classy.......) Dolly, those ole' Stinsons were so much fun to fly, yes, my partner and I did get it in the air.(after three years in the garage). That was me up there doing some "formation" flying for the photo ops. Eventually the partnership dissolved (on very good terms, we remained very close friends for decades, three years in a garage builds a special bond) so I purchased the Stinson that was the "photo platform". We did some pattern runs in Oshkosh one year with it. As far as doing another Stinson in the garage, forget it, I moved on. I have become a Jedi Knight in other endeavors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beyerjf Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Back to the original post idea. The trucking operation I am involved with, power only trailer transportation requires that I be able to handle a wide variety of trailers with an almost infinite number of configurations. The only thing they have in common is a 5th wheel pin. Here are a few pictures of some of them: https://www.flickr.com/photos/118502133@N04/ Most tractors, if they can slide the fifth wheel at all can do it maybe 12", because they are typically handling a trailer with a common pin setting 36" from the front of the trailer, and this amount of slide will allow them to balance the load so the legal( or permitted) limits can be met. 12K on the front axle, 34K on each of the rears. Elementary weight and balance. Add a sliding tandem to the trailer, and most scenarios can be handled quite nicely. Easily 50% of the trailers I hook to do not meet this common specification. So my tractor and most of the fleet I am in have extended slide 5th wheels, which in my case can slide 72" I can put the hole for the pin of the fifth wheel from 12" in front of center of the 1st rear axle all the way to 12" behind the center of the 2nd rear axle. And we frequently have to haul specialized trailers which have an extremely deep pin setting( 72") requiring me to slide my fifth wheel all the way to the back, but the weight on the front of that trailer can exceed 40K. The net result is up to 40K on the rear axles and something less than 8K on the steer axle. Legal requirements some time force the same absurdity, Florida being the worse, requiring a minimum of 41' from pin the rear most axle. If I have a short overweight generator, I have to slide to the rear and have a weight and balance situation which is downright dangerous, but legal. In this extreme, I can barely turn the tractor on dry pavement, if it is wet, muddy, loose gravel or snowy, it simply will not turn. As far as the HDT world is concerned, the only spec that I have seen that has alarmed me is the singled out tractor with the 5th wheel sometimes upwards of 36"(and more) behind the center of the single axle, the moment I think you aircraft types call it. Whether there is a bed there or not doesn't change the basic weight and balance result. Combined with the leverage involved as the tractor moves up and down and you know why some manufacturers have made a significant profit selling air ride 5th wheels. Putting the air ride swivel 5th wheel would be much more appropriate in my view if placed at least at the center line of the axle, preferably forward of that point. But of course that would cause the need for frame modifications(lengthening) to allow room for the Smart car on the deck, and in some cases vehicle over length and maneuverability problems. Everything is a trade off. But safety shouldn't be one of them. The bottom line is in the 1.5 million miles I have dealt with this critical weight and balance issue, I have a fair amount of experience dealing with good and bad results and what causes them. I know what happens when a load is placed in a balanced position(ahead of the centerline of the rear most axle) and what happens when it is behind the centerline of the rear most axle. A bed and a 1600# Smart car usually don't make up for a badly designed layout. Jeff Beyer temporarily retired from Trailer Transit 2000 Freightliner Argosy Cabover 2008 Work and Play 34FK Homebase NW Indiana, no longer full time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dollytrolley Posted November 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Back to the original post idea. The trucking operation I am involved with, power only trailer transportation requires that I be able to handle a wide variety of trailers with an almost infinite number of configurations. The only thing they have in common is a 5th wheel pin. Here are a few pictures of some of them: https://www.flickr.com/photos/118502133@N04/ Most tractors, if they can slide the fifth wheel at all can do it maybe 12", because they are typically handling a trailer with a common pin setting 36" from the front of the trailer, and this amount of slide will allow them to balance the load so the legal( or permitted) limits can be met. 12K on the front axle, 34K on each of the rears. Elementary weight and balance. Add a sliding tandem to the trailer, and most scenarios can be handled quite nicely. Easily 50% of the trailers I hook to do not meet this common specification. So my tractor and most of the fleet I am in have extended slide 5th wheels, which in my case can slide 72" I can put the hole for the pin of the fifth wheel from 12" in front of center of the 1st rear axle all the way to 12" behind the center of the 2nd rear axle. And we frequently have to haul specialized trailers which have an extremely deep pin setting( 72") requiring me to slide my fifth wheel all the way to the back, but the weight on the front of that trailer can exceed 40K. The net result is up to 40K on the rear axles and something less than 8K on the steer axle. Legal requirements some time force the same absurdity, Florida being the worse, requiring a minimum of 41' from pin the rear most axle. If I have a short overweight generator, I have to slide to the rear and have a weight and balance situation which is downright dangerous, but legal. In this extreme, I can barely turn the tractor on dry pavement, if it is wet, muddy, loose gravel or snowy, it simply will not turn. As far as the HDT world is concerned, the only spec that I have seen that has alarmed me is the singled out tractor with the 5th wheel sometimes upwards of 36"(and more) behind the center of the single axle, the moment I think you aircraft types call it. Whether there is a bed there or not doesn't change the basic weight and balance result. Combined with the leverage involved as the tractor moves up and down and you know why some manufacturers have made a significant profit selling air ride 5th wheels. Putting the air ride swivel 5th wheel would be much more appropriate in my view if placed at least at the center line of the axle, preferably forward of that point. But of course that would cause the need for frame modifications(lengthening) to allow room for the Smart car on the deck, and in some cases vehicle over length and maneuverability problems. Everything is a trade off. But safety shouldn't be one of them. The bottom line is in the 1.5 million miles I have dealt with this critical weight and balance issue, I have a fair amount of experience dealing with good and bad results and what causes them. I know what happens when a load is placed in a balanced position(ahead of the centerline of the rear most axle) and what happens when it is behind the centerline of the rear most axle. A bed and a 1600# Smart car usually don't make up for a badly designed layout. Jeff, Very good points to ponder AND to consider... I have to say your rig is so classy.........it almost makes you feel sorry for the KWopper, Peetys, and V-Folks.........and to have Detroit Power as well having ......"CAT"-security with a interior that matches the........"CAT"........how could anyone top that? For sure, if you drive long enough you sure see all kind of weird-loads on trucks and trailers. The RV-folks often come up with pretty amazing combos that often make me wonder where the........"Recreation" part is in their vehicles..... Even as a "kid" I never looked forward to a doubles and that was a good thing because I had very little time with doubles.......I knew a lot of doubles drivers and looked up to them......... Triples.......well........like Dirty Harry said........."a man's gotta know his limitations"..............not for me...... I have double and twice triple towed in a airplanes..........but I had a tow-release in the cockpit so.........the bird-boys in the "tow" had a real incentive to .....Fly.......right.....center....and left..... In a lot of ways towing in airplanes is easier than towing with trucks...... Drive on..........(Tow in balance........) 97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix2013 Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 In a lot of ways towing in airplanes is easier than towing with trucks...... Drive on..........(Tow in balance........) How about towing an airplane WITH A TRUCK! Utilizing the "original" design (?) airplane towing fifth wheel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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