New FT puchase pending. Timing and Resarch Tips?

[4McQueens]

Greetings all,

The wife and I have been camping in our TT for a couple years now and are looking to graduate to living FT and working on the road.  We've been researching 5ers for a bit and have a floor plan (Keystone Montana 3941FO) that we think will work for us.  We have tried to give ourselves plenty of time in the process (purchase within the 6-12 mo time frame) so we don't have to rush into a purchase and give a way a bunch of leverage.  We are also looking to invest in the 5er and tow rig at the same time since we've heard pairng the two in terms of weight and such is critical.

My question is, what tips do you have in terms of negotiations with the dealer, timing of our purchase, research items, and are there any RV specific "kick the tires" type of questions that a new FT typically doesn't thing to ask....

TIA!

[Randyretired]

Do not depend on the RV sales people to select you tow vehicle.  Do your own research.  Most feel it is wise to oversize the tow vehicle some.  A fully loaded truck isn't comfortable especially in the mountains.

[sandsys]

3 hours ago, 4McQueens said:

Keystone Montana 3941FO

Wow! That's an amazing house! I do wonder about the limited carrying capacity, though. If I'm reading that right, you won't be able to bring much stuff.

Linda

[2gypsies]

1 hour ago, sandsys said:

Wow! That's an amazing house! I do wonder about the limited carrying capacity, though. If I'm reading that right, you won't be able to bring much stuff.

Linda

I agree... it states 1800 lb cargo capacity.  Full-timers typically carry a lot more. Also, add in the filled tank weights. If it works for you... great!  Much happiness in your new lifestyle!

https://assets-cdn.interactcp.com/interactrv/brand_brochure/brand_brochure_20230710010655979504782.pdf?modified=0710202313071069

[4McQueens]

Thanks for the input.  

re the tow rig, based on what I’m reading on the other parts of the forum, good to plan on about 20% mor at least for the towing capacity. Like you said @Randyretiredtowing AT capacity is taking a risk.  
 

hadn’t thought about the limited cargo capacity. We really like the floor plan, but if we can’t can’t carry what we need.  Some good questions to grill the sales guy with. 

[Steven@146]

I would advise not to be wowed or blinded by the "Bling" walking into the RV or "Hype" from a salesman. In fact I wouldn't talk to the salesman much at all. Way too many potential owners get blinded by the "Bling" and forget about or don't know about what's important.

My initial thoughts - What's important after the floor plan is the suspension system, electrical system, holding tanks, solar system?, batteries, converter/inverter, plumbing system, cargo capacity, leveling system (electric or hydraulic), fresh water system, appliances like on demand water heater, 12 Volt compressor or residential fridge and the construction of the RV etc. Double pane windows? Keeps the interior of the RV cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter, but they do add additional weight to the RV. An Example - A lot of owners hate the on-demand water heater especially in winter weather. Manufacturer reputation for service support after the sale.

Look in the cabinets and pantry, are they using plastic shelf holders, if so they will probably bend or break and you'll end up replacing them. We had to replace ours, they are just too weak.

Be realistic about how you will use the RV, will it set most of the time in one place, ie short trips, or will you put a lot (10,000 +) of cross country miles on it? Fulltiming needs cargo capacity since you will be hauling most everything you have in the RV. 1500-2000 lbs cargo capacity is too small for most fulltimers. Remember your holding tanks add to your weight, especially the fresh water holding tank, Calculate 8.3 lbs per gallon of water. Full 80 gallon fresh tank = another 660 lbs of weight.

Suspension - is it just the standard leaf springs and drum brakes? Are the leaf spring frame hangers boxed or "V Clip" supported? What are the axle size and tires rating? Most times with a big 5er the axles are 7000 lbs with G rated tires, if there was an option for 8000 lbs axles and H or better rated tires thats a better way to go. Estimate what the loaded pin weight will be by taking at least 20-21 % of the GVRW of the RV. Size or Over size your truck accordingly.

Example our rig has 4400 lbs of cargo capacity, GVWR is 16,800 lbs, 20% of that is 3,360 lbs estimated pin weight but our actual pin weight runs around 3,500 lbs. Our axles are rated at 7000 lbs each so combined they are rated at 14,000, the rest of 16.8 of the GVWR weight is accounted for in the pin weight on the truck. Our leaf springs are 3500 lbs each, total of 7000 lbs per axle but in reality are too weak, and you end up with flat springs on the heavy side of the RV, so that is another reason to upgrade to 8000 axles, 4000 lbs leaf springs. Our loaded weight runs @ 15,500 lbs. Our truck payload rating is 5,390 lbs and that has to be enough for pin weight, hitch weight, stuff loaded in truck bed (generator, bed tool box), occupant total weight.

Just some things to think about

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by Steven@146

[rpsinc]

22 hours ago, 4McQueens said:

Some good questions to grill the sales guy with. 

I recommend doing this ONLY IF you are looking for some laughs.  Getting an experienced sales person is not very likely.  My first question was always, what type of rig do you have?  Have you lived in it?

If the answer is no, then that persons opinion doesnt matter and they are there only to facilitate access.  In the last 15+ years, I have NOT bought from an RV lot.  Private party only and I do my own research.  If I am serious and am willing to invest in a substantial rig, then hire an inspector and add your own comments and observations.

NEVER trust any sales person on towing facts or opinions, and dont always trust the towing info from dealers.  I have used Trailer Life's towing Guide with some level of confidence but only as a basis for comparison.

[sandsys]

22 hours ago, rpsinc said:

My first question [of an RV salesperson] was always, what type of rig do you have?  Have you lived in it?

This is the best RV buying advice I have ever seen! It should be reposted everywhere!

Linda Sand

[rpsinc]

3 hours ago, sandsys said:

This is the best RV buying advice I have ever seen! It should be reposted everywhere!

Linda Sand

Thanks Linda, it has sure saved me from purchasing those shiny & pretty RVs that I later learned were just shiny & pretty, but didnt hold up to the use I intended.

[TXiceman]

The Montana is not the quality of the Montana RVs from 10 years ago.  I would suggest you look at a loved used higher end unit than a new lower quality unit.

As for carrying capacity, the 1800 lb is not enough for a full-time use RV.  We just came off 10 years on the road with our NuWa HitchHiker Champagne and we had a bit over 3000# over the original dry weight.  The Champagne (no relation to the current Champagne trailer) was a high end 5er, but sadly NuWa is no longer building RVs.

Getting up into the 40 ft trailer, a one ton dually diesel will the required minimum truck.

As for looking at trailers, you need to sit in it a while and see how day to day life would be.  Check for storage of clothes, toiletries, dishes, flatware, food storage, outdoor storage for lawn chairs, grill, etc.  See if you can fit in the shower and see where linens are stored.  Don't forget about clothes for ALL seasons.  Do you sit and view the TV straight ahead or side saddle?

The big thing we saw different from our Champagne in the newer trailers was the lack of cabinets and storage.  You get up into the DRV, Riverstone, or Luxe trailers, you start getting more storage and higher carrying capacities.  Now your MSRPs are well over $200K.  And some of these you will need to closely watch the weight and the tow vehicle.  

We had looked at a few front living room units and were quickly turned off as a full-time trailer. There was not enough storage for us.  They are pretty to look at, but it is a lot of show and bling and not practical for us.

Ken

Edited July 13, 2023 by TXiceman

[sandsys]

Shopping for an RV

Part 1: On Line Research

Join some online forums like Escapees and IRV2. http://www.rvnetwork.com https://www.irv2.com/forums/

Read blogs from signature lines on those forums and at Cheap RV Living. https://www.cheaprvliving.com

Read about what rigs people live in and what they say about them.

Take notes.

Notice that people live in all types, sizes and brands of rigs.

Realize no one else can tell you what will work for you.

Part 2: Costs

Time to plan a budget if you have not done that yet. 

Figure out costs for a trailer and tow vehicle.

Figure out costs for a motor home with or without a towed vehicle.

Figure out how old a unit you would need to buy to fit in your budget.

Figure out how much money you will likely need to bring an older unit up to your comfort level.

Figure out how much money you want to set aside to maintain the rig.

Find your options for financing if that is likely to happen.

Wonder if you are ready to do this or not.

Part 3: In Person Research

Go to an RV dealer or RV show and visit a wide variety of types of RVs.

If a salesperson wants to give you advice, ask them what type of rig they have and if they have lived in it. If their answers are negative, ignore their advice.

Take a picture of the badging/signage before you go in each unit.

Take pictures inside the unit so you will know what you saw where.

Sit down and start mentally putting your things into cupboards.

When you start putting things into the same cupboard for the third time realize you either have too much stuff or that this rig is not for you.

Decide whether to go home and sort stuff again or to cross that unit off your list.

Part 4: Try It On For Size

Once you get your choices down to just a few rigs it is time to visit one for an extended period of time.

Again, before you go inside make a record of the badging/signage of the rig.

Once inside start by sitting in “your” chair and reading that rig's manual. That will let you know if the chair is comfortable for more than a few minutes of relief from walking from rig to rig.

Take off your shoes and lie down on the bed. (You did wear slip on shoes, didn't you?) Can you stretch out without hitting either your head or your feet? Can you lie on your side without hitting bottom? Figure out where you will put your alarm clock, flashlight, keys, etc. (Yes, you will want an alarm when attending gatherings or going to service appointments.)

Sit on the closed toilet and see if your feet and knees fit with the door closed. Where's the toilet paper?

Stand in the shower (without your shoes again) and go through the motions of washing your hair and of picking up the soap you dropped. Where did your reach for a towel?

Stand at the stove and mentally cook some ground beef. Where did you lay the utensil when done stirring? Where did you put the grease?

Stand at the sink and “wash” dishes. Where were the dirty ones waiting? Where did you put the clean but wet ones?

OK, you need to prep some vegetables. Where did you put the cutting board to use it? Where did you get the knife from? How about the paper towels to dry the washed vegetables?

Sit down to watch TV. How long can you do that without getting a crick in your neck?

Pretend you just came in out of the rain. Where will you put your wet things?

You made notes of all those answers, right?

On to the next rig and do it all again.

Part 5: Buy It

Pick your final rig.

Find out if anyone is selling one of those.

If more than one is available, decide which you'd rather buy based on location or seller reputation or whatever criteria is most important to you.

Take it to a certified scale to be sure it has enough capacity for your stuff.

Arrange for a qualified person to evaluate that particular rig.

Check to see if there are any recalls on that particular rig.

Finalize financing if needed.

Part 6: Take it Home

Start putting your own stuff into your new rig.

Downsize some more until it all fits.

Weigh the rig again to be sure you didn’t overpack.

Go play.

[Steven@146]

You have received a bunch of good feedback. In terms of timing we had our 5er and truck a year before actually moving into it. It took @ a year just to get rid of all our stuff and get the house and us ready to sell it and transition into the 5er. Downsizing is tough. We didn't want to have a storage unit to pay for.  Once we put the house on the market it sold in one day, then we had to hustle to get into the RV and at a local campground. The wife did her last few months at work before retirement in our fulltime RV before we could take off.

Discounting - right now I don't know what its running  at dealerships. On our truck we got @ 20% and the RV @ 30% of course that was back awhile. The only things I can advise is find the RV brand and floorplan you want, research what the weights are going to be approx, like was advised go to RV shows and or find the RV on a lot and look at the weight stickers on the left front for cargo capacity. Estimate the pin weight 22% (fulltimers) of the RVs GVWR. Find the best deal you can

Then shop around for the right truck to match.  Most likely you'll be in dually territory (didn't look up the RV you posted). I would get a long bed so you don't have to fool around with a slider hitch but that is up to you. But if you finance the interest rates could be really high. Try not to finance much.

Once you go for it set yourself a budget and track your expenses so you don't overspend and splurge. Use an excel spreadsheet or quickbooks. Set aside a repair and maintenance savings account just for your truck and RV (oil changes, repairs, tires, misc things you buy for the truck and RV etc).

Edited July 13, 2023 by Steven@146

[TXiceman]

Be sure and set up a reserve amount for normal maintenance (yes, even a new rig needs maintenance) and a nice emergency fund for the unforeseen things that happen.

If your rig is new, and it has to go in the shop for overnight or multiple days, plan to find a motel and have money set aside for that.

The longer you stay at a site, the less the daily rate will be.  We tried to find an area and stay at least a week or a month.  You can always boondock to save money, but you need to have the RV set up with solar, batteries and generators.  A solar system is not designed to run the A/C unless it is really big and expensive.

Another way to save on campsite fees is to volunteer at state parks or federal parks.  They will give you a site in return for a specified number of hours working in the park at various jobs.  Some with higher hour requirements will pay a stiped.  Some will have bathroom cleaning as a duty.  After a couple pf bad experiences, we would no longer take a position with bathroom duty.  Some people are closely related to hogs.

I would recommend starting with the truck and trailer paid for.  Financing a declining value asset is not for me.

When we moved into the RV full time, we had the luxury of being able to leave the RV in the driveway next to the house.  We moved into the RV with all the stuff we thought we needed for almost 3 weeks.  We could still go back into the house and get items we needed or put things back in the house. 

The last two weekends we had a Friday/ Saturday garage sale and a Saturday/Sunday garage sale.  What did not sell, was piled on the front porch, and called Purple Hearts to pick it up.

The house was sold, and the new owner was ready to take possession, so we locked it up and dropped the keys to the realtor and away we went for 10 years.

Safe and happy travels to ya'll.

Ken

 

[2gypsies]

On 7/10/2023 at 4:30 PM, 4McQueens said:

hadn’t thought about the limited cargo capacity. We really like the floor plan, but if we can’t can’t carry what we need.  Some good questions to grill the sales guy with. 

Don't rely on whatever a sales person tells you.  He wants to make a sale.  Sure he'll tell you that there's plenty of cargo capacity.

[RV_]

On 7/12/2023 at 10:04 PM, sandsys said:

Shopping for an RV

Part 1: On Line Research

Great post Linda!

Edited July 15, 2023 by RV_

[sandsys]

16 hours ago, RV_ said:

Great post Linda!

Thank you. I worked on that a long time--even adding the newest line just before I posted it thanks to rpsinc on this forum.

Linda

[RV_]

2 hours ago, sandsys said:

Thank you. I worked on that a long time--even adding the newest line just before I posted it thanks to rpsinc on this forum.

Linda

It shows! May I use it if the question is asked and on my FB page with your name on it?

rpsinc?

[sandsys]

1 minute ago, RV_ said:

It shows! May I use it if the question is asked and on my FB page with your name on it?

rpsinc?

Yes. You, and anyone else, may pass it on however you choose to do so.  I'd like to see it widely spread. Helping newbie RVers is a main focus of my life now that I am unable to actively participate in this way of life anymore. I miss RVing.

Linda Sand

[RV_]

Thanks Linda. I feel the same way.

[kb0zke]

We started researching several years before we bought our Foretravel. For the first year, every question answered seemed to generate two or three more questions. Eventually, though, we got to where we had an idea of what we thought we needed and wanted. During that time we visited every RV show we could, every RV lot we could, and asked questions at campgrounds (we were tent camping then). When it seemed that the full-time life might be a good fit for us, we bought a learner trailer, a Heartland mpg. We went on several trips with it, some of a month or so. Since we didn't kill each other, we decided that it would work, and we put the mpg up for sale. While we were waiting for it to sell, I focused on motorhomes that fit our specs. Since I didn't know when the mpg would sell, we didn't contact anyone about any of them. Eventually we got a check and then the real search began. I had a list of about 6-7 coaches that looked good, so we started with the one closest to us. We never looked at any others.

It turned out that we dodged a bullet, as there were things about the others that I learned later on that would have made our travels less enjoyable. That doesn't mean that all was smooth sailing, er, driving, though. Five years into it we had to have an inframe engine overhaul which had us in a hotel for six weeks and cost over $25,000.

Our needs have changed in 10 years, and earlier this year we sold the Foretravel and purchased a travel trailer. I suspect that we won't have this 10 years, as it isn't the quality of the Foretravel. That's really my two main points. Buy a quality rig first and you will have fewer problems overall. Second, your needs will change over time, so be prepared to change your coach.

[Tulecreeper]

On 7/10/2023 at 3:19 PM, sandsys said:

Wow! That's an amazing house! I do wonder about the limited carrying capacity, though. If I'm reading that right, you won't be able to bring much stuff.

Linda

 

On 7/10/2023 at 4:29 PM, 2gypsies said:

I agree... it states 1800 lb cargo capacity.  Full-timers typically carry a lot more. Also, add in the filled tank weights. If it works for you... great!  Much happiness in your new lifestyle!

https://assets-cdn.interactcp.com/interactrv/brand_brochure/brand_brochure_20230710010655979504782.pdf?modified=0710202313071069

I don't necessarily agree.  I have a friend who has a Keystone Montana (not sure which model, but it's about 38-feet), and he and his wife travel from MN where they live, to AZ from April through October every year so they're full-timing 6 months out of the year.  He told me they take a lot of stuff with them, including all his wife's sewing stuff, and he weighed before and after a a CAT scale and they have 1360# of cargo...and that includes a full water tank.  It's amazing how much stuff it takes to make 2000 pounds of cargo.

[rpsinc]

On 7/15/2023 at 1:26 PM, RV_ said:

rpsinc?

Checking in to see if you want anything from me, Derek?

[rpsinc]

45 minutes ago, Tulecreeper said:

It's amazing how much stuff it takes to make 2000 pounds of cargo.

I wonder how much my 6500W genset and its associated 160#s of propane (yes, I have 4-40# tanks) would weigh?

[RV_]

1 minute ago, rpsinc said:

Checking in to see if you want anything from me, Derek?

Oops! Thought it was an acronym not your handle. Thanks anyway!

 

[TXiceman]

7 hours ago, Tulecreeper said:

 

I don't necessarily agree.  I have a friend who has a Keystone Montana (not sure which model, but it's about 38-feet), and he and his wife travel from MN where they live, to AZ from April through October every year so they're full-timing 6 months out of the year.  He told me they take a lot of stuff with them, including all his wife's sewing stuff, and he weighed before and after a a CAT scale and they have 1360# of cargo...and that includes a full water tank.  It's amazing how much stuff it takes to make 2000 pounds of cargo.

Is that all they carried for full time?  We had close to 3000# of stuff, clothes, tools, food, ets and we traveled with only about 15 gallons of fresh water.

Ken