A new sodium-ion battery breakthrough means they may one day power EVs

[RV_]

Sodium-ion batteries have great promise. They're energy dense, nonflammable, and operate well in colder temperatures, and sodium is cheap and abundant. Plus, sodium-based batteries will be more environmentally friendly and even less expensive than lithium-ion batteries are becoming now. Sodium-ion battery performance has been limited because of poor durability, but this is about to change for the better....

https://electrek.co/.../14/sodium-ion-battery-breakthrough/

 

More here from the lab: https://www.pnnl.gov/news-media/longer-lasting-sodium-ion-batteries-horizon

[Dutch_12078]

4 hours ago, RV_ said:

Sodium-ion batteries have great promise. They're energy dense, nonflammable, and operate well in colder temperatures, and sodium is cheap and abundant. Plus, sodium-based batteries will be more environmentally friendly and even less expensive than lithium-ion batteries are becoming now. Sodium-ion battery performance has been limited because of poor durability, but this is about to change for the better....

https://electrek.co/.../14/sodium-ion-battery-breakthrough/

 

More here from the lab: https://www.pnnl.gov/news-media/longer-lasting-sodium-ion-batteries-horizon

Interesting articles! I really hope the technology scales up well to the EV world.

[RV_]

We'll soon know as between Musk's nimble ability to change fast, and all the new startups in EVs like Ford and Rivian, we should see if any start the R&D to switch.

I am watching this for possible investment opportunities. The engineering seems straight forward if they can avoid mechanical manufacturing slop like LG did with all those Chevy Bolt batteries with bad folds on the tabs that were causing their batteries to catch fire.

Amazingly several of the majors like Porsche and others are already building out their own proprietary charging networks in Europe and China. Rivian's here in the US has their first three up, one in Colorado and two in California already in operation. Charging at them for Rivian owners is free for now, but that won't last long.

Edited July 18, 2022 by RV_

[Chalkie]

The thing that really impresses me is their effort to eliminate the toxic elements in the batteries. 

[Dutch_12078]

29 minutes ago, Chalkie said:

The thing that really impresses me is their effort to eliminate the toxic elements in the batteries. 

I don't know how intentional that was, but it's certainly a beneficial side effect...

[RV_]

20 minutes ago, Dutch_12078 said:

I don't know how intentional that was, but it's certainly a beneficial side effect...

I'm with you Dutch, the elements are cheaper and less prone to fire so it makes it safer to make and to break up for any recycling later. Which means more money to scale. They just wanted to be first to perfect and patent a better more energy dense battery with long life and they may have found it. I think the money for the next big thing for battery power is worth trillions over time and that always gets the research done.

[Dutch_12078]

2 hours ago, RV_ said:

I'm with you Dutch, the elements are cheaper and less prone to fire so it makes it safer to make and to break up for any recycling later. Which means more money to scale. They just wanted to be first to perfect and patent a better more energy dense battery with long life and they may have found it. I think the money for the next big thing for battery power is worth trillions over time and that always gets the research done.

The research reported in the articles comes from the government's Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, so the patent status at this point is moot. I'm sure companies picking up on it though, will put their own spin on it for patent purposes.

[RV_]

Like Ames Lab sold the patent to the magnetic refrigerator which was buried because it would have caused a reduction in electricity for A/C residential and industrial by about 30%. CaloriSMART test system succeeds in magnetocaloric cooling | Ames Laboratory

Excerpt:

"A breakthrough occurred at the Ames Laboratory when researchers Sasha Pecharsky and Vitalij Pecharsky developed a process for producing large quantities of gadolinium, which is capable of producing a stronger magnetic field and improves the refrigerator's efficiency.The Ames scientists are developing magnetic refrigeration for Astronautics Corp. of America of Madison, Wisconsin, which wants to market the technology to the public.

The company took over the concept from the Los Alamos National Laboratory in 1985 and devoted millions of dollars to research.

The Department of Energy and Astronautics Corp. are sharing the cost of the project, Vitalij Pecharsky said. The Ames Laboratory has spent about $2 million in federal money on the concept, he said."

Scientists Develop Magnetic Refrigerator (rense.com)

Patents can be "shared" by government research labs.

[franco-bolli]

a quick search of other web sites about the topic, yields much the same information on all of them.
One web mentioned that the team is working on removing Cobalt from the chemical stew that makes up the battery.

I'll be looking for methods of recycling these batteries. 
 

I see that there is at least one company with it's eye on the Li-Ion battery recycling market (finally) so that when all those early Prius and LEAF models out last the cost effectivness of replaceing the battery, there will be some where to recycle it!
Lithium-Ion Recycling Company Is Going Public - CleanTechnica

[Zulu]

53 minutes ago, franco-bolli said:

a quick search of other web sites about the topic, yields much the same information on all of them

For sure and be careful what you quote.

For example, the source article in RV's first post is from Nature Energy June 6, 2022. To me, the crux of the article Abstract  (I didn't purchase the whole article) is this quote:

Our HC||NaNMC full cell with this electrolyte demonstrates >90% capacity retention after 300 cycles when charged to 4.2 V.

However, in another article from Nature Materials July 4, 2022 (which I also didn't purchase) reported:

Finally, the assembled all-solid-state sodium metal batteries demonstrate outstanding capacity retention, long-term charge/discharge stability (Coulombic efficiency, 99.91%; >900 cycles with Na3V2(PO4)3 cathode) and good capability with high loading NaFePO4 cathode (>1 mAh cm−2)

So we can expect sodium-ion battery cycling to triple every month?

If so, then in a few months we should expect sodium-ion battery cycle rates comparable to lithium-ion 8,000+ cycle rates, right?

 

 

[packnrat]

is this the same stuff, that has been bouncing around the web every so often? never making much a go of anything. but if this was something that is to be better than sliced bread... why do they need our tax dollars? as they would be making billions on there own backs.

if any tax moneys are involved in making anything. there should be no patents allowed. and the tax payers must be reimbursed for there investment. simple money in... money out.

[franco-bolli]

17 hours ago, Zulu said:

For sure and be careful what you quote.

I'm not sure what to do with this quote.

As I mentioned, a "quick" search of the web yielded much the same information on each site. Many of them looked like it was exactly the same information, slightly reworded.

Maybe I should have qualified my post with " without purchasing scientific white papers."?

I have to mention that with so much dis-information floating about, I've begun to question information from what used to be reliable web sites. I approach each new data point with skepticism now and try to find corroboration through other "reliable" sites.

Sodium-Ion technology looks to be promising, but so is the hydrogen fuel cell. Will either come to fruition?  My crystal ball is cloudy on this. 

[Zulu]

1 hour ago, franco-bolli said:

As I mentioned, a "quick" search of the web yielded much the same information on each site. Many of them looked like it was exactly the same information, slightly reworded.

I would guess that the reason that many of the articles in your search sounded alike is that they came from the same "source".

For example, in RV's opening post, he link to two articles that both come from the same source – Nature Energy (16-June-2022).

Science-type web sites and bloggers do this a lot.

 

1 hour ago, franco-bolli said:

I have to mention that with so much dis-information floating about, I've begun to question information from what used to be reliable web sites. I approach each new data point with skepticism now and try to find corroboration through other "reliable" sites.

Nature Energy and Nature Materials are both published by Nature magazine, one of the gold standards for credible scientific research.

[RV_]

21 hours ago, franco-bolli said:

I see that there is at least one company with it's eye on the Li-Ion battery recycling market (finally) so that when all those early Prius and LEAF models out last the cost effectivness of replaceing the battery, there will be some where to recycle it!

Lithium-Ion Recycling Company Is Going Public - CleanTechnica

2 hours ago, Zulu said:

Nature Energy and Nature Materials are both published by Nature magazine, one of the gold standards for credible scientific research.

Perzactly Zulu. Also the hotlinks and/or are different sometimes. But credible sources are my thing not "Confirmation Bias" as we see when folk excerpt part of a post and do not provide a link because the other half of the post does not agree with what they want to be right about. Do you have a better link? We do know the duty cycles of Tesla batteries and Bolt batteries pretty well by now. Here is a good article from Tesla co founder and battery recycler in the US JB Straubel:

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/29/tesla-founder-ex-cto-says-ev-batteries-will-last-15-years/

Franco Bolli, I have been posting about Tesla, Space X, Solar , and Tech Hydrogen here since 2000 on these forums. My Industrial Engineering, Electronics, and Military background as a Medical Lab Technologist and then weapon technology make it interesting to me especially since I own a Tesla and in the next year I hope a Rivian R1T I have on order. I have posted here that a Tesla co-founder now doing another biz is starting up EV battery recycling and has been setting it up since 2020 I believe.

Excerpt:

"Redwood Materials has recently been moving aggressively to expand its footprint. A few months ago, it announced plans to triple the size of its 150,000 square foot recycling facility in Carson City, Nevada. It has also purchased 100 acres of land near the Tesla Gigafactory in Nevada. The company recently completed a $700 million Series C funding round. Major investors such as Bill Gates’ Breakthrough Energy Ventures, Amazon’s Climate Pledge Fund, Baillie Gifford, and Goldman Sachs Asset Management all participated in the latest funding process, which brought Redwood’s valuation to $3.7 billion.

The company has recycling deals with Tesla, Amazon, electric bus maker Proterra, and electric bike maker Specialized Bicycle Components. Redwood says it can recover between 95% and 98% of the lithium, copper, nickel, and cobalt contained in existing batteries that are ready for recycling. Shifting the center of gravity in the battery industry away from China, Japan, and Korea will be a significant advantage to the US electric vehicle manufacturing industry.

Straubel had enough vision to help bring Tesla into being. Can he make lightning strike twice? The smart money says yes.

The company has recycling deals with Tesla, Amazon, electric bus maker Proterra, and electric bike maker Specialized Bicycle Components. Redwood says it can recover between 95% and 98% of the lithium, copper, nickel, and cobalt contained in existing batteries that are ready for recycling. Shifting the center of gravity in the battery industry away from China, Japan, and Korea will be a significant advantage to the US electric vehicle manufacturing industry.

Straubel had enough vision to help bring Tesla into being. Can he make lightning strike twice? The smart money says yes."

Source: https://cleantechnica.com/2021/09/14/jb-straubel-plans-circular-supply-chain-for-batteries-with-emphasis-on-usa/

If you want to check on the credibility of any EV or other green tech CleanTechnica.com is a good source because the folks that read them are in the industry or own EV/Solar/Windmills/Home battery systems so they publish for an informed audience and do not do Hyperbole just for clicks. 

For media reliability here is a chart that shows most reliable at the top and least at the bottom and whether it leans left or right. They are non-partisan and very useful for me when I run up against a new publication to me. It saves going to the about and then the bio of the writer. Not having those tells a lot so I don't use those. I use AdFontes Media to help me with reliability of news sources.

Ad Fontes Media helps businesses, consumers, educators, and platforms navigate today’s complex and dynamic news landscape. We provide data, tools, and educational resources for all stakeholders in quality news media

Ad Fontes is Latin for “to the source,” because we rate news by analyzing the source and its actual content. We use a rigorous, reproducible methodology, and a politically balanced team of analysts, to rate that content, both for bias and for reliability.

It seems the critics here are not reading the articles a lot here and are not specifying what they found that they disagree with in each article. (You have to read it first because I have and for comprehension not just a scan trying to do Confirmation Bias.)

You see the content is what counts and I'd be happy to discuss the pros and cons of sodium ion batteries contained in the articles.

And again when they begin to be used.

Discussion?

[Dutch_12078]

3 hours ago, Zulu said:

Nature Energy and Nature Materials are both published by Nature magazine, one of the gold standards for credible scientific research.

Cites I used from Nature articles in my doctoral dissertation were one of the few elements I was not asked to defend. Not one examiner questioned the source.

[Zulu]

4 minutes ago, Dutch_12078 said:

Cites I used from Nature articles in my doctoral dissertation were one of the few elements I was not asked to defend. Not one examiner questioned the source.

Good to know. What's your doctorate in?

 

28 minutes ago, RV_ said:

. . . credible sources are my thing

Here is a good article from Tesla co founder and battery recycler in the US JB Straubel:

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/29/tesla-founder-ex-cto-says-ev-batteries-will-last-15-years/

Source: https://cleantechnica.com/2021/09/14/jb-straubel-plans-circular-supply-chain-for-batteries-with-emphasis-on-usa/

While these CleanTechnica articles may be interesting, they don't prove a thing. Both are just summaries of what a Tesla CEO thinks. Marketing hype.

This is a credible source on battery recycling – Joule (10/15/2021).

 

[Dutch_12078]

6 minutes ago, Zulu said:

Good to know. What's your doctorate in?

 

Cryptographic science... My examiners were all required to have high level government clearances.

[Ray,IN]

Derek, This is another new battery storage article: https://www.seas.harvard.edu/news/2017/02/long-lasting-flow-battery-could-run-more-decade-minimum-upkeep?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000618

[franco-bolli]

@RV_  thanks for the heads up confirming Cleantechnica, Adfontes and the  Nature articles are reliable sorces of information.  Afterall, the one thing I've learned in life is that there is always more to learn.

On 7/20/2022 at 2:40 PM, RV_ said:

For media reliability here is a chart that shows most reliable at the top and least at the bottom and whether it leans left or right.

Please repost the chart.

When I mentioned "Li-Cycle" above was primarily because it's a publicly traded company where as I've not found any indication that Redwood Materials has made an IPO yet.  This being a finance and investing forum, it would be of interest to know when it does.
I see Redwoods' initiative has some big players with it and added another one last month.

TOYOTA joins Redwood EV battery recycling initiative

This interests me, as I mentioned above the plethora of EV's that will (or have) reach EOL soon and a recycling process would keep the batteries out of landfills.(off my soap box now)

BUT even this post is off the Sodium-ION topic, and  I apologize.

 

Edited July 22, 2022 by franco-bolli
update information

[RV_]

On 7/21/2022 at 10:23 AM, franco-bolli said:

@RV_  thanks for the heads up confirming Cleantechnica, Adfontes and the  Nature articles are reliable sorces of information.  Afterall, the one thing I've learned in life is that there is always more to learn.

Please repost the chart.

When I mentioned "Li-Cycle" above was primarily because it's a publicly traded company where as I've not found any indication that Redwood Materials has made an IPO yet.  This being a finance and investing forum, it would be of interest to know when it does.
I see Redwoods' initiative has some big players with it and added another one last month.

TOYOTA joins Redwood EV battery recycling initiative

This interests me, as I mentioned above the plethora of EV's that will (or have) reach EOL soon and a recycling process would keep the batteries out of landfills.(off my soap box now)

BUT even this post is off the Sodium-ION topic, and  I apologize.

 

Franco,

I did not post the chart because it also rates the outlets right and left so would be against the rules of no politics here, and if allowed would likely start a political row. Thus the reference if anyone wants to use it.

I post about the EV industry as the time to get ready is before IPO. The old saw says "Buy on the rumor, sell on the news." And because I am an owner so new developments I find fascinating.

As far as EOL wjhat I am reading is that 15 years is the projected life of Tesla battery packs based on percentage of capacity left so far with the oldest ones made so far.

As well I am seeing folks taking perfectly good battery packs with XX percent of capacity left for house batteries and other projects. EOL won't be for the motors, they are expected to go a million miles I read somewhere, and the battery packs can be replaced for much less than the cost of a new car.

JB Strauble was one of the engineers and founders that developed the battery packs and controllers that made Tesla cars from the 2008/2009 First Roadster to date possible. I have done very well investing in Tesla and feel strongly Strauble's  will be the company to watch, among others. Of course that remains to be seen.

We are also going to see some Tesla battery storage and backups on a larger scale in Texas at the new factories and possibly more.

You're fine. Get a subscription to Cleantechnica and you'd be amazed at how you can start seeing things coming.

[RV_]

Zulu and Dutch my sorry for misreading that exchange so wrong. I had an old timer's moment, not you guys. Have a great week.